new reloader question- Max COAL

[ColoradoNick]

I'm getting back into reloading and this is my first progressive press setup (Hornady LnL AP). I have two different Shadow 2's I plan on reloading for. I'd like to work up one that will work for both. I'm using range brass, CCI 500's, Titegroup, and I bought a sample pack of 147gr RN blue bullets. Putting a bullet in a piece of spent brass to figure out a max COAL in my barrel I'm measuring 1.1095". Subtracting 0.015 I'm getting a MAX OAL of 1.09 or 1.10. The problem I'm coming up with is all the reloading manuals I have are 1.10 or longer (most are 1.13). Would this be a compressed load? I understand the chambers in CZ's are very short. I've been buying reloads with plated 147gr bullets that all plunk test fine (I've fired 4-5k rounds of it) and they all measure 1.14 to 1.15. As I see it my options are to have my barrel reamed to take a longer OAL, or not use round nose Blue Bullets? I'm looking to order a few thousand bullets, wound flat nose blue bullets be a better pick? Should I just have my barrel reamed? I know a lot of shooters are using Blue Bullets and Titegroup in Shadow 2's... What gives? Is everyone getting their barrel reamed? I'm looking to load to a 130 PF.

FWIW I'm afraid my other Shadow 2 (orange) might even have a shorter chamber...

[Fuzzy Sights]

I purchased a Manson reamer and did it myself.  You will want to have TIN coated, and you are taking off a tiny amount of metal.  All of mine were less than three full turns with no downward pressure other than gravity.  My total cost was under $110 to do 6 pistols and a carbine.  Best wishes.

JW

[Ron IL]

Titegroup powder charge doesn't take up much room so I don't think you will compress it.  You will have to put a load in the case and measure down to the powder and then measure how much of the bullet goes down in the case.  As far as the bullet goes you will have to look at the profile of the bullet.  I had a couple guns with very short throats.  I use Brazos bullets.  The 115 and the 125 gr bullets would hit the rifling and would have to really seat the bullet deep in the case.  I then tried the 135 and 147 and they have a narrow profile and work fine.  That is what I use now.  Some bullets get to the fat part too quick and hits the rifling.  I think back when I used Acme they came out with one called 'new profile'.  It was a slimmer bullet profile that would work.  I didn't have a gunsmith here that had a reamer for barrels to do that and didn't want to spend the money on a reamer so I started looking at the bullet profiles.  I've never used blue bullets. 

[M1A4ME]

Wobbly where are you?

Wobbly is the guy with all the diagrams (picture's worth a thousand words) and well worded explanations.

He can correct what I tell you, make it easier to understand.

If you have to reduce COAL to get it to chamber you'll need to reduce powder charge - meaning start over working up your load if you already had one with that set up for another pistol. 

Nothing wrong with a shorter cartridge overall length if it feeds without issues from the magazine into the chamber. 

With the longer bullets, seating deeper can cause issues with some brass - swells the case out as the bullet is pushed down into the section of the case where the case wall is getting thicker).  Might mess up the base of the bullet some as well.  I don't usually encounter that issue as my CZ's seem to shoot 115 and 124 grain bullets better than 147's anyway.

Tite Group is said to be "not the perfect choice" for new reloaders.  It takes so little of it that it's very easy to double charge and cause a failure of the brass/pistol due to extremely high pressures.  I bought some once and didn't make anything that shot as good as my standard loads in .40 with lead bullets.  I'll use it up on something some day.

[Wobbly]

I'm getting back into reloading and this is my first progressive press setup (Hornady LnL AP).

It doesn't matter. The rules are the same.

I'd like to work up one that will work for both. I'm using range brass, CCI 500's, Titegroup, and I bought a sample pack of 147gr RN blue bullets. Putting a bullet in a piece of spent brass to figure out a max COAL in my barrel I'm measuring 1.1095". Subtracting 0.015 I'm getting a MAX OAL of 1.09 or 1.10. 

• In which barrel? The barrels could be different. You need to work with both barrels until you decide they are exactly the same OR you find one chamber is definitely shorter. You want to work with the shorter chambered barrel.

• While it is true that 0.015" subtraction is a "made-up number", it accounts for and solves multiple reloading issues.

The problem I'm coming up with is all the reloading manuals I have are 1.10 or longer (most are 1.13). Would this be a compressed load? I understand the chambers in CZ's are very short. I've been buying reloads with plated 147gr bullets that all plunk test fine (I've fired 4-5k rounds of it) and they all measure 1.14 to 1.15. As I see it my options are to have my barrel reamed to take a longer OAL, or not use round nose Blue Bullets? I'm looking to order a few thousand bullets, wound flat nose blue bullets be a better pick? Should I just have my barrel reamed? I know a lot of shooters are using Blue Bullets and Titegroup in Shadow 2's... What gives? Is everyone getting their barrel reamed? I'm looking to load to a 130 PF.

• ALL bullets are different. So it doesn't matter what you ordered, fired or loaded last month or last year. With each new brand/ type/ weight bullet you start all over at the beginning. Especially with 147gr because they give so much trouble.

• The load OAL in your manuals sets the Minimum OAL, not the Max. You may need more/different manuals, or you may need to do a lot of chrono testing to prove out a shorter OAL of say 1.080".

• A compressed load is when the powder is pushed deeper into the case by the base of the bullet. TG is so dense, I highly doubt that you're anywhere near a "compressed load", even with 147gr. Very, very rarely does a compressed load have any bearing on reloading, except with 1 or 2 powders like H110... which is not being used here.

Additionally, you'd need to quote some numbers for me to answer the questions you are asking. Only YOU have the bullets. Only YOU have the barrel. Where does that leaves me completely in the dark, my friend. You'll need to get busy and do some measurements.

• I'd have to say that having zero measurements and therefore zero facts to base your decisions upon, that having your barrel reamed at this early stage would be the worst decision ever. The word "foolish" comes to mind.

FWIW I'm afraid my other Shadow 2 (orange) might even have a shorter chamber...

Are we "guessing" or do you know this for sure ? One thing I do know.... "Guessing" is no way to go about reloading, my friend.

Get some bullets. Make the measurements. Ask others CZ owners here which 147gr bullets are working for them. Ask more questions. Take some positive steps toward fact finding. Go from fact-to-fact, not guess-to-guess or worse yet, hearsay-to-guess. Those last are the fastest way to getting hurt.

[tdogg]

Mr. Nick,

You started off great.  Using the Push Test to determine your max OAL is what you need to be doing with a new bullet.  Where you lost your way was not measuring all your 9mm barrels to find the shortest one.  Once you do this enough you will figure out which barrel is the shortest and you can skip the rest and just use that barrel for the Push Test duty.  This will ensure that the OAL chosen will fit in all your pistol barrels for that specific bullet.

Since you are finding that your CZ barrel is shorter than the load data you have, this is where you have to do some additional investigating.  What really matters with respect to staying safe is having the bullet seating depth in the case less than or equal to the seating depth of the load data you are using.  The internal case volume influences the cartridge peak pressure.  Chances with the shorter OAL, you will have more seating depth (less internal volume).  This isn't really of concern unless it you are trying to seat the bullet too deep and it starts to interfere with the thicker part of the case webbing.  This gets exasperated by a long heavy 147gr 9mm bullet.  So what you need to do is calculate your seating depth at your chosen OAL, confirm you aren't seating too deep in to the case to cause dimensional damage, and compare it to the seating depth of the reference load data (will have to find the bullet length data).  Seating depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - OAL.  Assuming your blue bullet 147gr rn bullet is 0.679 inches long your seating depth is ~0.334 inches.  This is getting into the danger zone on a 9mm case. 

Once you know how much deeper the bullet is seated you can start to determine if you need to reduce the starting charge of your load development.  If the seating depth is significantly deeper, then you should consider starting at a lower initial charge. This is why you start low and work up the load, ideally with a chronograph to confirm you stay within the reference data velocity.

Hornady lists a 147gr XTP loaded at 1.100, that equals a seating depth of 0.300 inches.  Your deeper than that by quite a bit. 

Titegroup is not really ideal for your situation being a fast powder trying to push a heavy bullet seated deep into the case.  These all stack up to reduce the room for error when loading cartridges.

What is your motivation for running the 147gr bullet?  Do you have any other powders to try first?

Cheers,
Toby

[nkresho]

Hello again.  I swear i'm not trolling you.  Us guys called Nick gotta stick together...

I prefer fmj to coated, so powder amount will be different by comparison.  Needs a little more powder for FMJ as the copper is a little harder to push down the barrel that the hi-tec coating. 

I've been on the RMR HMW bandwagon for a few months now.  I like the way the 147s feel in recoil and I have practiced with them so much they're my go-to.  Tried the PD V2 147 as well as the V1 and mainly went with the RMR due to availability and the slightly lower price.  Plus RMR has been really good with their shipping times.  Nearly all orders i've placed with them (2000-5000 bullets at a time) have shipped within 2 or so business days of my order.

Similar situation to yours, as i'm loading for a few shadows too for CO, so looking for that sweet spot of 130 PF.  I'm a little over 1.100" maximum OAL with the hmw147 in both shadows as well as my P07, which has the shortest leade of all my CZs.  I dont shoot the P07 much, but i like to be able to use these loads when i do.

My load is 3.4 of either N320 or sportpistol under the 147 heavy match winner.  OAL is 1.080-1.090 for me as i'm using mixed range brass too.

With that OAL, i have had absolutley zero issues with feeding.  That's really a major risk if you go too short, as long as you're in an acceptable pressure range (loosely measured by velocity).  It seems short compared to the round nose data in the books, but it's really not, IMHO. 

Chrono yields 130.77 to 131.78 power factor (889.6-896.5 fps) for the sportpistol for me.  N320 has proven to be slightly faster at 3.4 gr for 132.06-133.18 PF (898-906 fps).

I could probably stand to drop to 3.3 grains, but i'd risk possibly falling below 125 if t threw slightly lighter.  I don't feel any difference in 3.4 and 3.3, so i kept it 3.4 for a little margin of error.

I highly recommend the redding competition seater for 147s if you didn't grab one yet.  A little pricier than the others, but well worth it.  I was getting a lot of asymetrical brass bulges using the hornady seater.  Like 2-3 per hundred, which is pretty unacceptable for me.  Mainly overseas brass, aguila and CBC were pretty bad, but a few others as well.

[ColoradoNick]

Hah I appreciate it! A lot to unpack here. I've done a lot of forum searching to see what most people are loading. I'll dig into some of these replies a little more in the next couple days when I have more free time. One quick question I have- I'm checking out that Redding die. Do you not crimp 9mm? Right now I'm using the Hornady seater/crimp die.

[ColoradoNick]

Mr. Nick,

You started off great.  Using the Push Test to determine your max OAL is what you need to be doing with a new bullet.  Where you lost your way was not measuring all your 9mm barrels to find the shortest one.  Once you do this enough you will figure out which barrel is the shortest and you can skip the rest and just use that barrel for the Push Test duty.  This will ensure that the OAL chosen will fit in all your pistol barrels for that specific bullet.

Since you are finding that your CZ barrel is shorter than the load data you have, this is where you have to do some additional investigating.  What really matters with respect to staying safe is having the bullet seating depth in the case less than or equal to the seating depth of the load data you are using.  The internal case volume influences the cartridge peak pressure.  Chances with the shorter OAL, you will have more seating depth (less internal volume).  This isn't really of concern unless it you are trying to seat the bullet too deep and it starts to interfere with the thicker part of the case webbing.  This gets exasperated by a long heavy 147gr 9mm bullet.  So what you need to do is calculate your seating depth at your chosen OAL, confirm you aren't seating too deep in to the case to cause dimensional damage, and compare it to the seating depth of the reference load data (will have to find the bullet length data).  Seating depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - OAL.  Assuming your blue bullet 147gr rn bullet is 0.679 inches long your seating depth is ~0.334 inches.  This is getting into the danger zone on a 9mm case. 

Once you know how much deeper the bullet is seated you can start to determine if you need to reduce the starting charge of your load development.  If the seating depth is significantly deeper, then you should consider starting at a lower initial charge. This is why you start low and work up the load, ideally with a chronograph to confirm you stay within the reference data velocity.

Hornady lists a 147gr XTP loaded at 1.100, that equals a seating depth of 0.300 inches.  Your deeper than that by quite a bit. 

Titegroup is not really ideal for your situation being a fast powder trying to push a heavy bullet seated deep into the case.  These all stack up to reduce the room for error when loading cartridges.

What is your motivation for running the 147gr bullet?  Do you have any other powders to try first?

Cheers,
Toby

Thanks Toby, My other shadow is a backup so really wasn't considering it at this time. I did plunk test it and it's indeed shorter but I'm not concerned with it at this point as I don't shoot it much. On the competition side it seems like a lot of people are reloading with TG and 147's that was why I chose the TG. I have some Acme 135's on order that will hopefully provide a better profile than the blue bullets. The 147 reloads I've been buying all measure 1.14 and I haven't had an issue so I'm sure it's just the bullet shape.

I took some measurements from some of the reloads I've made so far. I have 20 of each at 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4. I pulled one of each and measured.

The 3.0 has a seating depth of .375, at the crimp it measured .376, in the middle of the case .382, and at the bottom .387
The 3.2 has a seating depth of .366, at the crimp it measured .377, in the middle of the case .385, and at the bottom .387
The 3.4 has a seating depth of .385, at the crimp it measured .376, in the middle .384, and at the bottom .390

Edit: I went back and found identical brass and they all measured the same- seating depth of about .379 with blazer brass.

This is different from what I'm used to loading rifle as long as possible... All COAL's measure 1.08 to 1.09. I'll get more precise with match loads by sorting brass.


This is varied range brass. Looking through Internet forums I can't find anything that gives me a max seating depth for 9mm. The only post I found recommended seating AT LEAST .35.

[ColoradoNick]

I'm getting back into reloading and this is my first progressive press setup (Hornady LnL AP).

It doesn't matter. The rules are the same.

I'd like to work up one that will work for both. I'm using range brass, CCI 500's, Titegroup, and I bought a sample pack of 147gr RN blue bullets. Putting a bullet in a piece of spent brass to figure out a max COAL in my barrel I'm measuring 1.1095". Subtracting 0.015 I'm getting a MAX OAL of 1.09 or 1.10. 

• In which barrel? The barrels could be different. You need to work with both barrels until you decide they are exactly the same OR you find one chamber is definitely shorter. You want to work with the shorter chambered barrel.

• While it is true that 0.015" subtraction is a "made-up number", it accounts for and solves multiple reloading issues.

The problem I'm coming up with is all the reloading manuals I have are 1.10 or longer (most are 1.13). Would this be a compressed load? I understand the chambers in CZ's are very short. I've been buying reloads with plated 147gr bullets that all plunk test fine (I've fired 4-5k rounds of it) and they all measure 1.14 to 1.15. As I see it my options are to have my barrel reamed to take a longer OAL, or not use round nose Blue Bullets? I'm looking to order a few thousand bullets, wound flat nose blue bullets be a better pick? Should I just have my barrel reamed? I know a lot of shooters are using Blue Bullets and Titegroup in Shadow 2's... What gives? Is everyone getting their barrel reamed? I'm looking to load to a 130 PF.

• ALL bullets are different. So it doesn't matter what you ordered, fired or loaded last month or last year. With each new brand/ type/ weight bullet you start all over at the beginning. Especially with 147gr because they give so much trouble.

• The load OAL in your manuals sets the Minimum OAL, not the Max. You may need more/different manuals, or you may need to do a lot of chrono testing to prove out a shorter OAL of say 1.080".

• A compressed load is when the powder is pushed deeper into the case by the base of the bullet. TG is so dense, I highly doubt that you're anywhere near a "compressed load", even with 147gr. Very, very rarely does a compressed load have any bearing on reloading, except with 1 or 2 powders like H110... which is not being used here.

Additionally, you'd need to quote some numbers for me to answer the questions you are asking. Only YOU have the bullets. Only YOU have the barrel. Where does that leaves me completely in the dark, my friend. You'll need to get busy and do some measurements.

• I'd have to say that having zero measurements and therefore zero facts to base your decisions upon, that having your barrel reamed at this early stage would be the worst decision ever. The word "foolish" comes to mind.

FWIW I'm afraid my other Shadow 2 (orange) might even have a shorter chamber...

Are we "guessing" or do you know this for sure ? One thing I do know.... "Guessing" is no way to go about reloading, my friend.

Get some bullets. Make the measurements. Ask others CZ owners here which 147gr bullets are working for them. Ask more questions. Take some positive steps toward fact finding. Go from fact-to-fact, not guess-to-guess or worse yet, hearsay-to-guess. Those last are the fastest way to getting hurt.

I understand what a compressed load is. I also understand OAL data is minimum, in my post I was trying to say I need to load SHORTER (1.09 compared to a minimum of 1.10 to 1.13 depending on manual). What other measurements do you need? I have a lot of them but don't know specifically what you're looking for. A lot of CZ owners are running my setup, that's how I got here in the first place A guy on another forum is running 147 grain BB's w/3.2gr of TG at 1.08 also out of a shadow 2 with a PF of 130.

I should also mention the 147gr BB's I have are .356

I know positively the other barrel is shorter because it didn't pass a plunk test. This doesn't matter to me though as I have 5000+ rounds of ammo that works great in it before I'm in need. I only shoot it once or twice a month at pin matches. I brought up reaming the barrel as it seems very common with shadow 2's over on the BrianEnos forum.

I have some Acme 135 RN's that should be here Wednesday and hopefully allow me to load longer.

[tdogg]

Mr. Nick,

You started off great.  Using the Push Test to determine your max OAL is what you need to be doing with a new bullet.  Where you lost your way was not measuring all your 9mm barrels to find the shortest one.  Once you do this enough you will figure out which barrel is the shortest and you can skip the rest and just use that barrel for the Push Test duty.  This will ensure that the OAL chosen will fit in all your pistol barrels for that specific bullet.

Since you are finding that your CZ barrel is shorter than the load data you have, this is where you have to do some additional investigating.  What really matters with respect to staying safe is having the bullet seating depth in the case less than or equal to the seating depth of the load data you are using.  The internal case volume influences the cartridge peak pressure.  Chances with the shorter OAL, you will have more seating depth (less internal volume).  This isn't really of concern unless it you are trying to seat the bullet too deep and it starts to interfere with the thicker part of the case webbing.  This gets exasperated by a long heavy 147gr 9mm bullet.  So what you need to do is calculate your seating depth at your chosen OAL, confirm you aren't seating too deep in to the case to cause dimensional damage, and compare it to the seating depth of the reference load data (will have to find the bullet length data).  Seating depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - OAL.  Assuming your blue bullet 147gr rn bullet is 0.679 inches long your seating depth is ~0.334 inches.  This is getting into the danger zone on a 9mm case. 

Once you know how much deeper the bullet is seated you can start to determine if you need to reduce the starting charge of your load development.  If the seating depth is significantly deeper, then you should consider starting at a lower initial charge. This is why you start low and work up the load, ideally with a chronograph to confirm you stay within the reference data velocity.

Hornady lists a 147gr XTP loaded at 1.100, that equals a seating depth of 0.300 inches.  Your deeper than that by quite a bit. 

Titegroup is not really ideal for your situation being a fast powder trying to push a heavy bullet seated deep into the case.  These all stack up to reduce the room for error when loading cartridges.

What is your motivation for running the 147gr bullet?  Do you have any other powders to try first?

Cheers,
Toby

Thanks Toby, My other shadow is a backup so really wasn't considering it at this time. I did plunk test it and it's indeed shorter but I'm not concerned with it at this point as I don't shoot it much. On the competition side it seems like a lot of people are reloading with TG and 147's that was why I chose the TG. I have some Acme 135's on order that will hopefully provide a better profile than the blue bullets. The 147 reloads I've been buying all measure 1.14 and I haven't had an issue so I'm sure it's just the bullet shape.

I took some measurements from some of the reloads I've made so far. I have 20 of each at 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4. I pulled one of each and measured.

The 3.0 has a seating depth of .375, at the crimp it measured .376, in the middle of the case .382, and at the bottom .387
The 3.2 has a seating depth of .366, at the crimp it measured .377, in the middle of the case .385, and at the bottom .387
The 3.4 has a seating depth of .385, at the crimp it measured .376, in the middle .384, and at the bottom .390

Edit: I went back and found identical brass and they all measured the same- seating depth of about .379 with blazer brass.

This is different from what I'm used to loading rifle as long as possible... All COAL's measure 1.08 to 1.09. I'll get more precise with match loads by sorting brass.


This is varied range brass. Looking through Internet forums I can't find anything that gives me a max seating depth for 9mm. The only post I found recommended seating AT LEAST .35.

So the seating depth is a function of the bullet length and your OAL.  How long are the 147gr bullets?  You can determine how deep you can seat bullets by using your calipers to measure the depth where the case webbing gets thicker.  If your using mixed brass then your going to need to measure a bunch of different head stamps.  Here is some additional detail with excellent graphics authored by Wobbly:  https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111500.msg804486#msg804486

It absolutely is the shape of the bullet that is causing your short OAL.  It is running into the lands so in effect you are loading as long as possible (for this bullet in this barrel) similar to your rifle reloading mentality.

I'd argue that your getting into the thicker portion of the case near or around 0.350 inches.  If you can stay in a seating depth regime around 0.250 is ideal.

Cheers,
Toby

[ColoradoNick]

Thanks Toby, these bullets measure .717. Maybe I will scrap them and start over with a different profile. I'll see how these Acme's measure up in a plunk test when they get here wednesday

[M1A4ME]

Could be the guys on the BE forum are reaming their short barrels so they only have to have one load and will never grab the wrong ammo for the pistol they take to the match that day.

I really, really like it when a load works in several different pistols.  Different brands make it even better.

[ColoradoNick]

Taking any bullet recommendations for CZ's please. I ended up ordering a sample pack of blues in 135 TC in both .355 and .356 after reading good reviews to go along with the Acmes I ordered. My preference is a heavier bullet/soft shooting that bodes well with TG since I have some already. Currently competing with 135 TC's from precision one. I like them but whatever powder they're using smokes badly.

[Wobbly]

I understand what a compressed load is.

You only said you were 'getting back into reloading', not what your experience level was.

I also understand OAL data is minimum, in my post I was trying to say I need to load SHORTER (1.09 compared to a minimum of 1.10 to 1.13 depending on manual). What other measurements do you need? I have a lot of them but don't know specifically what you're looking for. A lot of CZ owners are running my setup, that's how I got here in the first place A guy on another forum is running 147 grain BB's w/3.2gr of TG at 1.08 also out of a shadow 2 with a PF of 130.

So then the answer to your question is: Use a simple mathematical proportion to estimate the Starting Load, then test it with a chrono to verify.

I should also mention the 147gr BB's I have are .356

And this is what's confusing me. You infer you are a knowledgeable reloader, but then you want to communicate that lead bullets are larger diameter. Which, while true, is basic knowledge.

It also means that some form of diameter reduction has to be employed to find the true bullet fit.

I know positively the other barrel is shorter because it didn't pass a plunk test. This doesn't matter to me though as I have 5000+ rounds of ammo that works great in it before I'm in need. I only shoot it once or twice a month at pin matches.

No, sir. You know positively that USING ONE BRAND/TYPE BULLET that chamber is shorter. Each bullet has to be tested individually, because each bullet shape interacts with the end of the throat in different ways. So with a new bullet brand/shape/weight, all that could change.

I brought up reaming the barrel as it seems very common with shadow 2's over on the BrianEnos forum.

Yes, idiots on the internet will try anything. Herd mentality is rarely a good thing.

I have some Acme 135 RN's that should be here Wednesday and hopefully allow me to load longer.

In my experience the 135gr will work out much better than most any 147gr, loading-wise and competition-wise.


Hope this helps.