Fix for some rounds not freely falling into and out of my aftermarket barrel

[el1234]

After reading one of the site's stickies regarding using handloaded ammo, specifically about checking barrel fit (paraphrased, "rounds must drop into and fall out without any issue"), I checked my ammo using my recently Cajanized 75 SP-01.  [Zero issue with CGW, they had none of my handloads to do anything with.]  I found that about 1 in 5 or 6 rounds would sick when dropping into, and stick when trying to drop out of, my brand new Bar-Sto Precision barrel (the one I provided to CGW and they fitted to one of their bushings as part of their SAO package install).  Hm...

A bit of background...I've been reloading rifle ammo for many, many years, but not pistol in over 40 years.  When I started loading 9mm for this build, I noticed that sometimes seating the bullet (Hornady XTP HPs) would produce an unprofessional-looking bulge ring...but they would drop into my Dillon and EGW case gauges no problem.  Not liking to look of that bulge (a cosmetic-issue-only, I thought at the time), I started looking at "solutions".  On that journey I came across the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-9mm).  Suffice it to say, I was unimpressed at its ability to significantly remove the bulges, even when maxed out (it would simply move the bulge down the case, not totally remove it).  So I set it aside, moved it to the "issues/mistakes" section of my build spreadsheet.

Back to context...when I then had the sticking problem, I thought, maybe the Lee die might help.  It did so wonderfully!  Once sized by that die, all but one round out of about 65-70, dropped into and fell right out w/o issue.

Going forward I will check all my ammo with the EGW gauge while reloading (7 holes, so much quicker than the Dillon single-round gauge) and then check every round in my barrel.  More work but I'll be feeling a lot safer.

Hope others find my experience helpful.

[Clint007]

Hi el1234,

Waiting for the true Jedi Masters here to offer their insight, but here are my thoughts.

FCD is pretty much worthless for 9mm in general, as the stickies etc here will attest.  There's a lot on that here, and it causes more issues than it solves. All you need for 9 is to remove the flare/bell, and a micrometer and small incremental turns of your crimp die (not FCD) will get you there in 5 minutes.
And nothing really addresses the low bulge in 9mm brass like you might see in hot loads in a less-than-fully-supported chamber.  9 is a tapered case so you can't full length bulge-bust easily like you can with 40 or 10 etc etc.

If you are using range brass, maybe you are picking up brass shot in open guns. Do not use. Indoor range brass is usually NOT from open guns. It's usually factory ammo often bought at the range. But still, you never know. Mixed brass from unknown sources is our scourge.

To your point, a mildly sticky case now and again that still fully chambers (with light pressure) and can be easily plucked out is common, especially with the crap brass floating around. Aquila is notorious. I don't like several other headstamps, but point is, those will shoot fine. I shoot those. but I remove them from my shock bottle and toss into the "shoot and toss the brass" bucket just because I have enough quality brass to not bother keeping them.  But the rounds that will not chamber with slight fingertip pressure (like someone roll-tapping their fingers on a desktop distractedly) those should be pulled apart to recover your components and toss the brass into the trash.  For me, many of these once tapped in, subsequently chamber effortlessly afterwards. I concluded the issue was a slight lick-curl of brass from resizing or case-mouth expansion die, or something and the tap essentially removed it.

Many high volume shooters (I've loaded about 275k 9mm at this point, and now I use an automated press)  use the 100 round "shock bottle" products as our chamber check process. I use the version made by Armanov which comes with a tapered tray that sits atop it to help speed the insertion process. These case gauge trays are CNC'd. They are generally tighter than the average chamber, and it's even tighter than my CZ barrel - which I test regularly. So if it drops in there easily, and will lift up partially and fall back down fully when you jerk the tray up quickly, it's the equivalent of the 'plonk' test in my CZ barrel.    These fall out when the tray is inverted into ammo trays.

Rounds that will not seat/chamber with very light pressure are not to be used; generally, these are the jams when shooting.

Best,

C

[el1234]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm using brand new, first-time-loaded, Hornady brass (#8720).  The bulges are towards the bullet end, not the base.  As you note, at the base would likely be from a hot load.  I only retrieve my own brass (sweep up indoor ranges before I shoot, count and check retrieved brass for headstamp).

The noted die worked for me for barrel-fit testing. I've got it, seems to work fine for my purpose, and I see no downside in using it.  You see a downside?  Thanks again.

[Grendel]

The noted die worked for me for barrel-fit testing. I've got it, seems to work fine for my purpose, and I see no downside in using it.  You see a downside?  Thanks again.

FWIW, I use a Lee FCD on all my reloads. I only reload straight cartridges, 9mm, 10mm, 44 Mag/Sp, & 45/70. Once it's set, I just crank them out on my Lee Turret press. Seems to work just fine. I check every round with a gauge and and the barrel I'm going to be firing them from, except the 45/70 since I can't remove that one, so just the gauge for those. Might be different on a progressive, but I'll never know because I'm not that hardcore.

If it's working for you (and me), then I see no downside.

[Clint007]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm using brand new, first-time-loaded, Hornady brass (#8720).  The bulges are towards the bullet end, not the base.  As you note, at the base would likely be from a hot load.  I only retrieve my own brass (sweep up indoor ranges before I shoot, count and check retrieved brass for headstamp).

The noted die worked for me for barrel-fit testing. I've got it, seems to work fine for my purpose, and I see no downside in using it.  You see a downside?  Thanks again.

Great, then your brass are not the issue! If it's the wasp-waist like appearance associated with the base of the bullet, those are not issues, but I agree they can sometimes look oddly prominent and give you pause.  A true bullet bulge (like a too deep 147 gr bullet hitting the thicker part of the case down low) is a completely different issue, sounds not what you have.

The Lee dies are great, I use the regular Lee dies for many loads. (and I grew up just down the road from their facility in WI).

I just don't see much value to the Lee FCD specifically for 9mm Luger.  This FCD Factory Crimp Die is a different die than the 'regular' crimp die in that it has a carbide ring and actually swages the bullet down I think to 0.355.   This can cause problems. I believe it's not something you should use without knowing exactly what it's doing to your bullet and casemouth. To say that one "uses it and it works great" implies it's a reasonable class solution for all reloaders looking for (often simple basic) info on making 9mm....and that's incorrect. Again there's a whole textbook chapter on the FCD here and way smarter chaps than me can talk this talk better...

So what you are doing is taking made rounds that stick somewhat in your barrel during QA, putting them back into the press and running them through the FCD to essentially squeeze them down more so they drop more freely into the chamber?  Or are you using the FCD at the end on all rounds as part of the normal process?

If that's the case, please pause that practice and read the FCD information on this thread. This might cause you or your gun harm...

Hopefully one of the true gurus can weigh in here promptly...

Best,

C

[Clint007]

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.msg572103#msg572103

where did that document go on the FCD risks for 9mm?


C

[tdogg]

In my experience my hundo case gage is tighter than any of my CZ barrels both 9 and 40.  In general It's pretty hard to have case bulge issues with 9mm being a tapered case.  It's the straight walled 40 S&W cartridge that fail due to bulges mostly in my experience.

Typically oversized or improperly sized lead bullets cause most cartridge defects.  If you are having bulging issues with the XTP, I'd take a close look at your process.  Especially if you are using new brass.  I'm going to guess that you have a crimp issue.  What are the case mouth dimensions after each step in your process?  How much are you flaring?  What is the case mouth diameter after seating?  After Crimping?

The downside to using the FCD is that it will swage the bullet down and leave it undersized.  This isn't a big problem with jacketed, plated, or even coated lead bullet types.  But it could lead to leading if running straight lead.  In general it does not help with accuracy having undersized bullets.  At worst they can start to tumble.

How did you arrive at your chosen OAL?  Case gages do not check for improper OAL but your barrel does also check the OAL.  You need to ensure your reloads have an acceptable OAL by performing the push test (find the sticky above) with your barrel and bullet.  This will tell you the maximum OAL for that bullet in your barrel.  Subtract 0.015 to 0.020 inches for a safety margin and set that as your OAL unless it push tests longer than the magazine will accept or shorter than the gun will reliably feed.  If it push tests too short (<1.050 inches) then you may need to change up your bullet selection.

Cheers,
Toby

[tdogg]

I forgot to mention seating depth issues causing case bulge.  You didn't mention what weight XTP you are reloading but longer bullets seated deep can cause issues.  Post up what specific components and reload OAL you are using and we can rule out that as an issue.

Cheers,
Toby

[Wobbly]

A bit of background...I've been reloading rifle ammo for many, many years, but not pistol in over 40 years.  When I started loading 9mm for this build, I noticed that sometimes seating the bullet (Hornady XTP HPs) would produce an unprofessional-looking bulge ring...but they would drop into my Dillon and EGW case gauges no problem.  Not liking to look of that bulge (a cosmetic-issue-only, I thought at the time), I started looking at "solutions".  On that journey I came across the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-9mm).  Suffice it to say, I was unimpressed at its ability to significantly remove the bulges, even when maxed out (it would simply move the bulge down the case, not totally remove it).  So I set it aside, moved it to the "issues/mistakes" section of my build spreadsheet.

• You haven't given us enough information to help you. There are numerous issues that cause 'case bulge' and/or mis-shaped cases, so the issue is not 'what', but 'where' the bulge lies. Photos would certainly help.

• One thing you've proved is that you cannot pick and choose the articles you want to read. Within the Directory of Reloading Information, you have to start at the first article, and work your way to the last. Taking time with each to fully digest the information.


Welcome to reloading 9x19 Luger (proabably the most difficult cartridge) for the CZ (one of the most difficult handguns).

Hope this helps.

[el1234]

Past the point of pics, all rounds have been "sized".

115 gr. XTPs

OAL set based on powder mfg's min - ignore that and set the bullet deeper WILL increase pressure. 

[tdogg]

But the data you are using is just what they used to test in their test barrel.  It fit in their barrel does that fit in yours?  I'm guessing not given your issues with the plunk test.

If you haven't determined what the maximum OAL for the 115 XTP is in your barrel then you are flying blind here.  Not all barrels are the same.  What OAL are you using with the 115XTP?

If you have to load shorter than the load data you have (because that bullet won't fit at the published OAL), then you can attempt to adjust the starting load down to account for the lower starting volume and/or you can just monitor the velocity through the chrono and stop when you reach the published maximum velocity for that weight bullet.  There is a reason for the "Start low and work up" mantra that is prolific in reloading, it is to help account for these subtle differences in equipment and components vs the published test data.  If the difference isn't subtle (like a significant difference in OAL published vs actual) then you should post up and we can help you determine an adjustment to the starting load.

Cheers,
Toby

[el1234]

Corrected my last post, s/b Mfg's min, not max.  The recipe is here - https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=115&shellid=23&bulletid=324&bdid=1214

I'm under that min, about at 1.085 - 1.100.  SAAMI range is 1.000 min to 1.169 max.  ALL rounds fired thru my pistol (20) are my handloads - no sign of base-area bulge.  Those cases mic .390.  Pre-firing they are .385  I have no out-of-box left to check.

All the rounds (before using the Lee die) met the drop in/out test in the factory barrel.  The Bar-Sto barrel's chamber is designed tighter.  The factory barrel is 4.6, the Bar-Sto is a little longer.  The load data is based on a 4.0.  I no longer have a chrono - not needed, rounds are for defense only, not competition.

[tdogg]

With the 115XTP seated to an OAL range of 1.085-1.100, your seating depth is ~0.202-0.217.  That definitely shouldn't be causing any case bulge issues due to seating the bullet too deep into the case.

How long can you load the 115 XTP in your Barsto barrel?  That is the next question you should be answering.  SAAMI doesn't mean anything with respect to your barrel and bullet combo.  The "Push" test or just taking a dummy round and seating deeper and deeper until is passes the "Plunk" test is what you need to answer the Max OAL for the 115 XTP in your barrel.  Those tests are located in the stickies for more information.

A chrono isn't only needed to make PF.  It is useful when you are trying to stay within a safe pressure realm.  By staying under the published maximum velocity you are approximating that you are staying under the safe maximum pressure.  Especially when your chosen load parameters and equipment do not exactly match the published load data (hint, they never do ever).

Cheers,
Toby

[M1A4ME]

To add fuel to the fire about bullets, overall cartridge length and barrels.

My P01 Omega will chamber rounds that hang up in my P09 9MM.

My M&P 2.0 9MM has an Apex barrel in it and bullets that chamber in my P09 hang up in the barrel (aftermarket barrel).

The reloads that work in all my CZ 9MM pistols (PD 115 grain hollow points) will sometimes hang up in my M&P 1.0 Shield.

Guns are different.  They are.  Doesn't matter what works in my P01 it might not work in yours.  As they say, you've got to test your reloads (and sometimes factory ammo) in your barrel/chamber.

You check your barrel, you measure what works, you right it in your reloading logbook and refer back to it as you do for powder/powder charge weight, bullet used, etc.

[Wobbly]

Past the point of pics, all rounds have been "sized".

115 gr. XTPs

OAL set based on powder mfg's min - ignore that and set the bullet deeper WILL increase pressure.

• You have a problem.

• You asked for help.

• Help arrives and you argue with the helpers.

• Do you not realize that 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, each of us had the exact same issue ? Education is hard because wisdom comes from failure. I know this because I'm wearing all the scars.


Reminds me of the guy who called the Fire Dept because his house was on fire. Then, when the guys who knew how to fight fire, who had the right equipment, and who did this everyday arrived... he started a fight with them.

When you get tired of watching your house burn down, please let us  know. There's no charge for watering your lawn while we wait.