Author Topic: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C and two videos  (Read 2619 times)

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Offline Joe L

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I was in New Mexico over Spring Break but the grand kids took priority over pistol shooting so no 200 yards video to show from that trip.  But I was at the gate when Lonestar opened today and was itching to compare IMI vs AA ammo in the 4" barrel P-10C.  I shot 30 rounds of each, but the best result was from the 1st target, where I shot 10 rounds of AA first, then 10 rounds of IMI with no changes, 20 rounds total.  After that target, I shot target 2 with 20 rounds of AA, then target 3 with 20 rounds of IMI.  These confirmed the first target results--both ammo choices shoot very well in the P-10C, with the IMI hitting slightly lower and slightly left of the AA, but it was so close that it may just have been my eyesight and focus shifted slightly as the session progressed. 

Here is a short video of target 1, 10 rounds of each brand of ammo. 

https://youtu.be/8LhAgurEy1E

I may go back on Wednesday to shoot again. 

This is fun.  This is not easy.

Joe L
« Last Edit: March 22, 2024, 06:39:23 AM by Joe L »
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2024, 06:48:39 AM »
I didn't get the orange circles placed perfectly in the video.  Here is a photo of the 2" group. 



This is definitely a result of a good shooter day plus a lot of luck!  Placing the dot in the same place 9 times out of 20 at 100 yards just doesn't happen very often.  I knew when I saw all the holes in the repair center target using two different ammo brands that I must be having a good shooter day, but didn't realize that 6 of the 10 IMI shots were in that small group along with 3 AA until I got to see the video myself.  The IMI only target (target 3) had 10 shots out of 20 in a 3-1/4" group but more wide shots with 4 just off the paper.  In other words, I was getting sloppy after 30-40 rounds, and relaxed a little too much after the first really-good-for-me target.  I think. 

Joe   
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2024, 08:08:28 AM »
I didn't get the orange circles placed perfectly in the video.  Here is a photo of the 2" group. 



This is definitely a result of a good shooter day plus a lot of luck!  Placing the dot in the same place 9 times out of 20 at 100 yards just doesn't happen very often.  I knew when I saw all the holes in the repair center target using two different ammo brands that I must be having a good shooter day, but didn't realize that 6 of the 10 IMI shots were in that small group along with 3 AA until I got to see the video myself.  The IMI only target (target 3) had 10 shots out of 20 in a 3-1/4" group but more wide shots with 4 just off the paper.  In other words, I was getting sloppy after 30-40 rounds, and relaxed a little too much after the first really-good-for-me target.  I think. 

Joe

Awesome shooting Joe.  I've had some pistols/ammo do worse at 12 or 15 yds.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2024, 09:39:05 AM »
Thanks, M1A4ME.  I have good days and not so good.  I went back to the range on Wednesday to see if I could duplicate Tuesday's results with the P-10C and the IMI ammo and didn't do so hot.  Wind had changed and I was a little anxious.  I will go back this morning and try again if the rain doesn't close down my local range.  Otherwise it will be next week.

I think the POI shift I saw on Wednesday was really an eyesight problem.  I've had some allergy problems and it affects how I see the dot at 100 yards.  I don't think the gun or ammo shifted.  Yesterday I just held high left again like I did a few weeks ago to compensate and managed to get 19 of 20 on the repair center but not really grouped well.  It is just hard to hold off a half bullseye for example.  When I went to a full bullseye left and up, I was more consistent.

More later today if I get to shoot today.  I'll know in a few minutes. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2024, 04:53:52 PM »
We talked, one time before, about target (the black part) size vs. the dot size.  I think you changed targets, or mentioned that you had a target that was a better size (don't remember what it was.)

What size are the dots in your optics? 

When I was younger and poorer I used to make targets.  An old Planters Peanuts can with the bottom cut out, paper/pages torn from old Shotgun News magazines and a can of bright orange spray paint.  Lay the can on the center of the paper and give it a shot of orange paint, lift the can and let the paint dry.  I wasn't trying to match the size of the orange to anything in a scope or pistol sights, just making myself cheap targets.

Back to the dot and the target size.  Would it help if your aiming point was just big enough to see an edge all the way around the dot?

I just realized this might be tough with a pistol dot unless it's sighted in for 100 yds. vs. using a hold over.  Or on a windy day.  Just a thought.  Not even sure what colors would work best with a red, amber or green dot.

Joe, I'll bet what you're doing can be a lot of fun, even on a day when the holes are showing up where you want them.  I haven't done any long range handgun shooting in almost 40 years.  I'm sure it was much harder than it seemed at the time, then again my eyes were perfect and my hold was a lot steadier - and the triggers on my S&W revolvers were pretty awesome, too.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2024, 09:09:40 PM »
I made it back to the range today, but it was misty and dim. 

On the Burris FF 3 sight, there are 3 dot brightness levels.  That is the only weakness of the Burris 3 moa red dot sight.  Today was one of those days where the dimmest setting was too dim and the middle setting was too bright.  It did overlap the edges of the B-8C target, so, after the first 10 rounds, I changed to the B-6C target, which has a black 8 ring instead of white.  I also went ahead and made a 2 click up and 2 click left zero adjustment, after first duplicating results from Wednesday as far as the group location went.  Then I shot 10 rounds to confirm the changes were good, then shot two more 20 round targets, both of which were fine.  (I have switched back and forth on the bullseye size--usually using the larger B-6C with the 3 moa Burris sights, and the smaller B-8C with the Holosuns, which have a crisper 2 moa dot.  I've also just used a square box with good results.)

It is still very difficult to place the dot in the center of the bullseye and keep it there while pulling the trigger at 100 yards.  But today's results were again, like Tuesday, pretty good! 

Here is the video of today's range session.  Still 6 minutes long, and all four targets, but I think this is a more complete depiction of how these sessions go.  Not all the shots are perfect, but there is a high percentage of "good" shots in the two 20 round targets:

https://youtu.be/vy4gsRsPU0U

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C (3min video)
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2024, 06:38:07 AM »
To summarize what I have learned over the last three days worth of shooting sessions (160 rounds):

1.  The IMI ammo is fine in this P-10C Primary Machine barrel, no need to shoot the more expensive Atlanta Arms rounds in it.  The IMI ammo hits about 3" lower than the AA at 100 yards.
2.  My P-10C benefitted from the Primary Machine match barrel much more than my P-10F did.  Before the barrel swap, this pistol was a bit frustrating even after adding a shim to tighten up the lock up.  Now it is as good as the P-10F. 
3.  The trigger on my C pistol is the best of the three P-10's I have.  I need to do some more work on the F and S.
4.  Eyesight and red dot clarity versus the aim point are key at 100 yards and there is a difference in clarity between bright sunshine and dim overcast days requiring some changes.  When using the pistols with the Burris sight, a larger bullseye like a B-6C target helps.  As does a tape square around the bullseye, similar to what I've been using at 200 yards for years. 
5.  I am not disciplined enough to ignore other shooters at the range.  I tend to shoot best when alone, especially when also shooting video with all the complications and distractions that brings. 
6.  My best targets occur early in the session and I tend to go down hill after 40 rounds, especially if other people are around.  40-60 rounds is definitely a good limit per session at 100 yards for me, as eye strain seems to take over after that. 
7.  The Burris sight seems to be stable when adjusting up and left compared to down and right, probably due to no backlash take up in the tiny zero mechanism in those directions.  The adjustments seem to be 3-4 moa per click at 100 yards but it is hard to tell for sure when the groups are 6-10"!

Eyesight and mental discipline are the key factors in shooting a pistol at 100 yards, that is for sure, once the pistol and ammo are proven to be repeatable. 

This is fun.  This is not easy.  Confirmed, once again.

Joe L
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Steve Menegon

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Joe,
That is amazing shooting. I appreciate the efforts you put forth. I still haven't walked out to the 100 yard area to hang a target as I'm having too much fun shooting at the steel. One of these days I will.

I'm still practicing offhand standing at 100, but my eyesight and iron sights are beginning to fight each other.

Fun and not easy indeed!

Offline M1A4ME

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I can't see the 2 MOA dots clearly in my Holosuns.  Not red, not green.  Green is a bit better, I think.  I've got progressive lenses and I find myself moving my head all around trying to find a spot that gives me a nice clear, sharp dot.  Finally decided there is not spot in the lens that will do that. 

Brightness is probably an issue, too.  They say dimmer helps make the dot less frazzled looking.  I think so, too, but I can't get it dim enough to clear up and still be usable.

What I've found is the smaller K series Holosun with the 6 MOA dot is wonderful.  It's a really nice clear sharp dot.  Red or green and green is definitely a little better for me.  I like the dot appearance in the K series sights enough that I'm getting a full sized M&P framed pistol (sub compact size but not a Shield or Shield Plus, just the smallest size of the big guns) slide milled for a 407 K green dot.  I'll find out just how much I like it when I get the slide back in a few weeks.  6 MOA would be right at 6" for the dot size at 100 yds, right?
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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6 MOA would be right at 6" for the dot size at 100 yds, right?

It should be, but the dots look larger than the spec to me, more like 30% larger or a 6 moa dot may be 8 or 9 when viewing. 
joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Wobbly

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C and two videos
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2024, 09:03:21 AM »
That's one good looking barrel you have there !  ;D
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C and two videos
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2024, 12:11:41 PM »
That's one good looking barrel you have there !  ;D

"pre-tested and approved for future 100 yard demo service" 

It really is a fine match for my slide and frame.  This C really was my least favorite P-10 until I bought this barrel from your estate sale.  Fixed'er right'up!  Saved-a-gun. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: IMI vs Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo at 100 yards in a P-10C and two videos
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2024, 08:28:18 AM »
Raining again here in Central Texas.  Supposed to stop mid morning, maybe the range will dry out by Tuesday morning, otherwise it will be Wednesday before I get out to the range again.  I am going to shoot the P-10C and IMI again, but with a box around the target bullseye or just a blank sheet of paper and maybe just experiment with the box dimensions.  40 rounds max for the day. 
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR