38 Super and 9X23...

[justsomeguy]

The other day while purusing the internet I saw an add for a new 1911 barrel in 38 Super at an attactive price.  Since I had just "converted" an old "safe queen" 45 I had built many years ago to 9mm with a new Essex "enhanced" slide, old barrel, bushing, extractor and a couple of 9mm mags I had laying around for over 25 years, a new STI bomar type adjustable rear, fiber optic front, and replacement of the ejector and slide stop with 9mm parts on the old receiver, I thought I would try it.

The barrel certainly fits new 38 Super ammo just fine, but I also bought 100rnds of 9X23 Winchester since I had heard that they would also be shootable in the 38 Super barrel.  Not so...

They will not drop all the way into the new Super barrel... At least not this 1911 one.  They stick out past the barrel shroud about 1/8 inch or so.  Upon examination after applying "thumb pressure" and "thumbnail extraction" to a couple of 9X23 rounds, I could see a slight abrasion on the 9X23 rounds near the rear of the cases which indicated that it was just a little too wide in the haunches (by maybe .001-.002) to go all the way in, but just barely.  I know the 9X23 is slightly tapered, but thought the overall size fell withing the spec of the 38 Super at the rear of the case.  Since I have seen several references here to people doing this with the Witness pistols with no problems I was wondering if:

A)  The Witness barrels are chambered slightly looser than those of the 1911 for 38 Super, or...

B)  The Witness is actually chambered for 9X23 or perhaps the non-rebated rimmed version of the 38 Super.  Be that as it may, this barrel seems to have a solid "edge" in the forward part of the chamber indicating that the Super could or does indeed headspace on the mouth of the case and not the small rim of the base, though without actually putting pot metal in the chamber and measuring the results it would be hard to tell.  Reloading manuals show the size of the Super cartridge, but I can't find specs on the 9X23 in my new Sierra manual or my older Speer or Lyman manuals.  I did order a couple more newer Speer and Hornady manuals the other day, but they are not here yet and I don't know if they list the 9X23 anyway.  The other manuals show 9X21 and seem to be satisfied with that.

I could get a 9X23 finishing reamer from Brownell's for about $60.00 plus shipping and another of the 38 Super barrels and devote one to the 9X23, or just open this one up with the reamer (a "shade tree gunsmith" might use a felt bob and some compound... but I won't risk making an ogive shape!) and shoot both in one barrel but I am torn about doing that.

What do you think?  Has anyone else here done this?

Oh... just to be thorough, the 38 Super ammo I tried in the barrel is PMC and the 9X23 is actual Winchester.

[justsomeguy]

No one here with any experience with a 9X23 conversion of a barrel?

C'mon guys...

[Virginia Jake]

Maybe you should conside making a cerrosafe cast of your chamber and measuring the cast before you invest in a finishing reamer that you will use just once.  You can reuse the cerrosafe many times.

A cast of your chamber might show you that you just need to polish the chamber and not recut it.

Your 9mm extractor will work just fine on the 9 X 23 rim.

If you do purchase a 9 x 23mm finish reamer, would you consider renting it to me?  I have a 9 X 21mm Nowlin barrel sitting here that I'd like to ream out to 9 X 23mm!

Yours,
Virginia Jake

[elsolo75]

Although they look the same, you gun is probubly only going to shoot one of these: .38super, .38supercomp. 9x21, 9x23.
The guys I know that have open guns chambered in one of those want ONLY that tyoe of brass. The .38supercomp shooters do not want 9x23, and so on.

Is there a reason why you want a looser chamber so you can shoot 9x23?
.38 super brass is mush more common anyhow.

[justsomeguy]

Hi you guys...

The whole point of the reamer thing was to get several uses out of it.  I have a new 38 Super barrel which I recieved the other day for the 1911 type which is now shooting 9mm just fine (the gun I mean... It is set up for 9mm right now and the new barrels will be added for 38 Super and 9X23).  I just received the reamer as well.  I have yet another 38 Super barrel on the way too.  I wish to make a single gun that will shoot 9mm, 38 Super, and 9X23 with only barrel changes... and maybe a spring.  I suppose I might also set up another extractor for 38 Super as it is slightly larger at the base.

I have acquired another 9mm barrel for my wife's new Witness 9mm and will probably try to convert that to 9X23 as well, but I expect I will have to run an actual drill bit into the thing first to make the chamber hole a little deeper so the reamer doesn't have to do so much work.  I've got to take a few measurements and go slower with that one as I want to modify the one for the 1911 first and see how that goes.  In the 38 Super barrel it would seem like you could almost hand ream the thing as there really isn't that much metal to remove to get to 9X23 dimensions from 38 Super.  It seems like just a few thousandths of taper have to be added to get the barrel to the correct dimensions.  I have to fit that barrel up to the slide a little anyway before that whole thing begins.  It kind of binds a little as it is out of the box and I am trying to figure out just where I have to massage the thing to make for smooth operation.  I will also have to open up and push back the barrel's feed ramp slightly so it is forward of the receiver's feed ramp.  As it is now, it may hang over by a few thousandths.

We'll see if the reamer is still usable after I get done messing with it.  If it is, I might consider loaning it, but I only paid $60 for it from Brownell's and it is a finishing reamer so it can't take too much abuse from actual metal removal.  Going from 9X21 to 9X23 doesn't seem like it would stress it much though if it was kept well oiled with cutting oil.

[justsomeguy]

Hi Elsolo...

Like I said, I just want to make a multi-caliber pistol out of the old 1911.  If I don't get too lazy and put it on the back burner, I will wind up with something that will shoot 9mm, 38 Super, and 9X23 with one slide and just barrel changes.  If the ejector will work for 45 as well, then I have a whole upper end that was on it originally for that as well.  I just have to test it to see if the ejector will take the hit from the 45 brass and throw it out of the gun effectively and not bend or something.  Of course the slide would have to be relieved to accept the 9mm ejector so I have to play with it some to do that.  For now, I would be happy with a 3 shooter version of the 35 caliber variety.

[Virginia Jake]

I have been wondering about this very thing for a while.  In other words, can a .45 ACP ejector be used in a .38 Super slide?

I recently bought a 1911 that shoots 9mm.  I havn't measured the height of the ejector.  It would seem to me that the 9mm ejector would have to be "taller" than a .45 ACP ejector because the 9mm case head is smaller than that of a .45 ACP case head.

Conversely, if indeed the 9mm/38 Super ejector is taller; the .45 ACP slide would never clear the top of the ejector.

This is very interesting!

Yours,
Virginia Jake.

[justsomeguy]

Hi Jake...

I haven't yet measured it either, but upon memory, it is not seemingly the height that varies, but rather its horizontal placement that differs between 45 and 9mm.  That is, the groove in the slide that accepts the ejector is moved over by slightly widening it in the 9mm slide vs. the 45 one.  That is because the 9mm is somewhat smaller and therefore would not be hitting the 45 ejector if it were not moved over a bit.  In reality, this means that the groove in the 9mm slide is a bit wider as the ejector fits into the same holes in the top of the receiver or frame as the 45 one does.  If it is higher as well, that is easily remedied by the same process.  Some experimentation would be necessary on my part, but I would think that a 45 slide could be milled out or even hand filed to accept the placement of the 9mm ejector equipped 1911 reciever.  How exactly this would affect the ejection of 45 brass once this was accomplished is what would need experimentation.  Also, it would intrude into the 45's breechface somewhat, though any related feeding problems could probably be surmounted with careful smoothing of the breechface and de-burring the grove you made.

Still...  I think it could be made to work, but where the brass would go upon ejection is iffy.  Since the 45 brass is wider it would be hitting the ejector closer to its mid-line, making it want to go more upwards than sideways.  It might just hit you in the forehead all the time which is disconcerting in a rapid string of fire.  Or it could be that you would have it constantly bouncing off the top of the inside of the slide and either going back into the gun and screwing up the feeding process, or denting hell out of your brass.  Perhaps the ejection port could be opened up at the top some, but that might weaken the slide too much.  You could "tune" the ejector some for the 45 by shaping its face, but that might ruin it for the 9mm types.  Perhaps the extractor in the 45 slide could be made to compensate for the difference.  Like I said... experimentation would be needed.  A slide, at least, would be forfeit to the experiment.  There would be no going back if the project failed.  If I were a rich guy and had money to throw at this I would take some pleasure in the experiment.  Somewhere in this wide world someone has done this.  The web is a great tool and perhaps that wily experimentor has reported his findings on the web saving the rest of us some grief.  It's worth looking into.

I do have an old government type slide in 45cal laying around though without a home.  It will fit my other recievers, but they all have other slides on them.  You tempt me sir, to try this.  You are a scoundrel!  If I eventually do attempt this it is all your fault!  Now this will nag at me.  Oh man..!  Thank goodness I have some other gun related projects at hand like the 9X23 thing.  Yeah... that will distract me for a while at least.  But it's in my head now.  Nuts...

It's all your fault!

[Virginia Jake]

I used to work with a guy that had a Les Baer 1911 style .45 ACP with slightly longer than normal (tuned) ejector installed in it.  One day he was about to show his pistol to a customer.  He pulled the slide back with his left hand covering the ejection port in order to catch the round that was in the chamber.  The extracted round struck the ejector, detonated the primer and exploded the round in the ejection port.

Shards of metal cut my friend's hand.  We never found the bullet.

We sent the pistol back to Les Baer.  They did whatever they did, and my friend sold the pistol when we got it back.

Be careful when messing with that ejector!  It is possible for a miss alignment to cause a "KA BOOM"!

Yours,
Virginia Jake

PS.  I am sorry that I tempted you towards the "dark side" of expermentation!  (Evil grin!)

Jake

[Miossi Gun Works]

I have built a number of multi barreled 1911's over the years and have one for myself, it is a 10mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig.  You will need to fit each barrel to the bushing for a good tight front end lockup and also a good rear end lockup.  Adjustable sights are a necessity.  Only shoot the correct ammo in each barrel, even though you can shoot a shorter cartridge in a longer chamber it is not advisable and accuracy will suffer.  If you shoot say 9mm in a 9X23 or 38 super barrel excessively you will start to get chamber erosion, especially with the hotter loads.

Have fun building your gun.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

[justsomeguy]

Hi Jim...

I almost did the 40cal thing like you instead of 9mm types with this 1911, but had an old 9mm barrel and that got me started.

I will be using seperate bushings for each barrel to avoid any problems with fit as much as possible.  Fitting the lugs is a more tiresome process, but I might get lucky.  I put a Bomar type adjustable sight (from STI really...) on the rear of this one and a fiber optic (green) in the front dovetail.  It shot great with the old 70 series 9mm barrel I have, but it has a narrow and short (National Match I think) shroud and cannot be fitted to the slide properly without welding it up and recutting it, so I got another new 9mm barrel that I am messing with also.  It fits pretty good now, but I need to re-cut the feed ramp of the barrel as the rounds nose dive into it and won't feed correctly.  One of the 38 Super barrels is nearly fitted up, though I will have to relieve the bushing a bit as I am not getting enough drop under the slide when the action cycles, and it too needs a little feed ramp work.  The third barrel (another 38 Super) I haven't even started on yet as I need to re-chamber that puppy for the 9X23 and I don't have a lathe handy but do have a 9X23 reamer.  I read somewhere online that you could do it by hand as there is not much to remove, but that doesn't seem right to me... it is metal after all, not balsa wood!  Have you done this?

I built a 45 and 38 Special wadcutter gun years ago when I was in gunsmithing school.  It used the same ejector and extractor for both calibers, though getting a weak enough recoil spring that was still long enough for the 38 Special wadcutter setup was a chore.  I think I made one.  If I remember, the prescribed load was only 2.0 or maybe 2.2 grns of Bullseye with 148grn hollow based lead wadcutter but I got it to cycle reliably.  It was a great gun and the wadcutter barrel won me many a "turkey shoot" at 25 yard targets.  It was a local police department sponsored shoot and so they handed out 5 rounds of the Bullseye load you had to use in order to participate (they all had 38 Special revolvers then), thus I had to tune the gun to the load.  

Some guy burned down my house though (to cover a theft... he was actually after my stereo, Phase Linear 700 amp, Citation 11 pre amp, Voice of the Theatre speakers, Akai reel to reel tape deck... none of you probably know what that stuff is anymore, but if you played, say, Edgar Winter's "Frankenstein", sat in front of it and cranked up the volume, you wouldn't have to comb your hair for a week!) and ruined the gun or I would have it still.  He also burned up a High Standard Military Citation 22 that I had just completely rebuilt, blued, and inlaid gold fill into the lettering on the slide.  I'm still mad about that one!  It was beautiful!  I still have it in an old tool box.  It is mostly a rusted hulk from the firemen's hoses when they put out the fire, and sad reminder of that day long ago.  It breaks my heart to look at it now.

[Miossi Gun Works]

You do not need a lathe to recut the chamber, in fact I prefer to do it by hand as the lathe turns too fast for the finishing reamer and you don't get the feel of the cut.  Just use a lot of Do-Drill cutting lube, clean off the reamer after a few turns, and check the head space often, your reamer should have a throater which acts as a guide as you make your cut.

Sounds like it will be a great gun, enjoy.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

[justsomeguy]

Hi again Jim...

Thanks for the advice...

Yes, the reamer does have a "throater" section on it, so I will give it a go.  I have the 9mm and 38 Super barrels fitted up now, and will proceed with the 9X23 one I guess, unless you think that it will be ok to use the one already fitted and just ream it to 9X23 and use it for both 38 Super and 9X23.  When I polished the chamber after cutting the feed ramp I noticed 9X23 would go almost all the way in now anyway.  Perhaps I am being too picky about the whole thing.  The only barrels I ever chambered/reamed were for rifles and they were completely raw except for rifling (and the higher pressures and accuracy requirements led me to become cautious about such things).  We usually drilled them to just undersize for the largest part of the chamber dimension, then ran the reamer in with a lathe turning as slow as possible.  Of course we backed it out and cleaned the chips off several times from both the barrel and the reamer.  They were "blank" barrels though, and so we could set the headspace anyway we wanted by counting threads, making a face or shoulder cut etc. before screwing on the action.  I can see where doing it by hand has some advantages where headspace is already pretty much set.  

If you will bear with me...  I also have a spare 9mm barrel for my new witness 9mm large frame.  Can I ream that by hand to 9X23 too?  It's a "finish reamer" by the way.  I have laid in a supply of cutting oil and will try it if you think that is the way to go.  I ordered a large tap/reamer handle from Brownell's when I got the reamer, but the drive on the reamer is slightly larger than the stupid handle will accomodate (swearing soflty...), though it was the largest one I saw offered.  On the web, the person who said to hand ream said he mounted the reamer in a 1/2 chuck he took off a drill and just turned that by hand, but since the drive portion of the reamer is square I don't think that will work unless the chuck will accept it farther down to where is it round before the cutting edges start.  I will have to dismount the chuck from my 1/2 inch portable drill and see it that will work.

Any suggestions?  What do you use for a handle when hand reaming a pistol barrel?

[Miossi Gun Works]

I use a large tap handle / holder but if your lathe will go slow enough and since you have experience in reaming chambers use the lathe, you will get less chance of chatter.  I would use the barrel with the tightest chamber in the event that one is a loose fit with the reamer.  I am sure it will work out great.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

[justsomeguy]

Hi again Jim...

It has been many years since I have done any chamber reaming with a lathe.  I am now without one entirely, a fact I lament daily.  A mill, lathe, metal bandsaw, fairly large drillpress, a gnarly old machinist assistant who smokes cigars, and a few other items dance through my head like so many sugarplums in a Christmas dream.  Should fortune someday smile on me hugely, I would build and equip a small shop with the necessary tools to pursue hobby gunsmithing with a vengence.  Of course this would require a move from our present digs, but hey... we would be rich then and a few acres of land would be a mere bagatelle.  

I do everything now by hand and so my wife thinks me a genius (or at least pretends to hold such a view) and does not believe such tools as mentioned above are a necessity of any kind, but you and I both know I only attempt those things which can reasonably be done by hand and have little chance of failure.

Therefore, I will try to get a large enough handle to use to hand ream this thing and hope for the best.  I have a household reputation to uphold after all!

Thank you for your continuing advice.  I hope I didn't pester you too much.