452 Ultra Lux wood?

[Steyr 22]

Thanks Jefferito

The only situation which could support my thoughts and your information is that the rifles were distributed by CZ-UB (contrary to what I have been lead to believe), but the BRNO references still confuse me.

I am getting really excited about getting a reply to my enquiries, even if they do prove me wrong.

[Steyr 22]

Here are some pictures I took of my BRNO's markings. Note that this was made long before CZ-UB was making the CZ 452's.

I will put up similar photo's of Gary's rifles when I get back from his place next weekend.

   

 

 

 

 

 

[dancz]

 

 

Steyr 22: I thank you for your research and the knowledge that you are willing to share. I always embrace any thing I read and can find about the Czech firearms.

"If you mean BRNO / CZ knowledge - It has grown over the years (to a small sapling) and has been especially helped since the advent of the Internet (much easier to research things - as long as one can sift the chaff from the wheat)."

The problem that we are all facing is that it is hard to sort the chaff. There are just too many unsupported statements being made on the wonderful WWW. And indeed a lot of what we read is more an opinion rather than well grounded and proven fact.

"I will have to see if I can see a copy of the Pistol looking "trade mark" before I can comment (if at all on this one)."

There have been many posts on forums over the years that have researched these trade marks. They are well recognized by many people as being one of the true ways to tell where/who made the Czech firearms. Perhaps I'm among one of the many who you may believe to be misguided with this. I am however prepared to be proven wrong. There has also been a lot written on the Czech rifles that have been made from original parts in other places and country's plus several cheap copies of original Brnos.

"First - I believe that the Z inside the rifling symbol is not a trade mark! My 1967 BRNO has this marking on it and it is definitely not made by CZ-UB. As I have mentioned earlier "Ceska Zbrojovka" means simply "Czech Arms Factory" - just as we would use the term "Manufacturing Company" - and there are many Czech Arms Factories. Note: At least 2 have used the same symbol - BRNO and CZ_UB (which were only recently joined under EXIMAT a.s.)."

I would love to hear why the "Z inside the rifling" is not a trade mark? It has been well recognized as belonging to the original Brno (Zbrojovka Brno) company. I agree that your rifle is not a CZ-UB as it is what is known as a Brno (Zbrojovka Brno) The CZ company (Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka) is a different company. You mention that at least two companies have used the same symbol. The important thing here would be for you to share what two companies and what the symbol was? I have certainly seen different "symbols" what I would refer to as trade marks on the same model of rifle made by different companies but I have not seen different companies using the same "symbol" trade mark. Please do share, this is very important.

You have made the point "Ceska Zbrojovka" means simply "Czech Arms Factory" you should also mention that (Zbrojovka Brno) means Arms Factory Brno. We are happy to refer to the rifle made by this company simply as Brno's. The factory was in the city of Brno.

The little research that I have done on the CZ company shows that it was originally Ceskoslovenska Statni Zbrojovka v. Brno If you wish this translated it means Czechoslovakian State Arms Works at Brno. In 1923 CSZ was sold to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Praha translated this means Czechoslovakian arms factory Prague. For those that have not been bored to tears by my poor writing ability you may be starting to se a trend in the names of these companies. This new company was named Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno A.S. and I believe that it is the same company that make the rifles we refer to as CZ.

Now as to what you refer to as symbols rather than trade marks?. While many people share my opinion that the symbols are company trade marks you are welcome to your opinion just as we are. I have mentioned that there are several different "trade marks" that are seen on different rifles and I have yet to see an example of the same trade mark being used by more than one company. Why do I stand by my opinion that they are trade marks. I have rifles that have your so called symbols stamped into the top of the action and then immediately under it the words "Trade Mark". As to the words Brno being on rifles made by different companies, this is true and the reason is quite easy to understand. Brno is a place and as such it can't be a trade mark any more than any other city could be used as a trade mark.

I would certainly love to hear more from your friend that has written the articles you mention. I certainly don't mind being proven wrong if that's the case.

I did refer to three different models of ultra lux plus different stock types/colours. The reason is that there have been three different markings on barrels and actions for the ultra lux, and therefore if they are called something different, then I tend to class them as being different models.

Now as to the move from the topic of the Ultra Lux onto the Brno models 1, 2 and 5. That is an excellent article written by 35WCF. As you may have noticed Paul is one of our countrymen. His knowledge on Brno is extremely well researched. You mentioned two stock shapes for the model two in three variations and I have handled most of these. In fact I have used at least four different stock types in the model two while shooting professionally over the years. The reason that most people do not include the hogsback stocks while talking about Brno rimfires is that the original Brno company never made a hogsback stock on the models 1,2,3,4 or 5. You go onto mention 9 different model 2 stocks after pointing out that there were six. What are the other 3 types or are these found on non-Brno?

You mention the original Brno company not making a full stock rimfire. I do have full stock original Brno rifles though not on a model 1, 2 or 5. Until recently I would have said that they did not put one on the Brno 465 either but have changed my mind after seeing one.

Did you know that Brno also made a fully engraved action ("model" used loosely) of the model two rifle? Little surprises me any more with the Czech's. Perhaps they did make a full stock and I have yet to find one???

I certainly agree that I do need to define the different models particularly when talking about CZ's. If I was to only define them by action then there would be two, the polished and the textured. Of course there would be different trigger assemblies to consider. Then there would be different barrel profiles, the Varmint and the standard weight, then what of the different lengths from 16 to 29 inch in each basic weight. Once you get through all these then what of the stock style. Should I not also consider these as well. I could hardly say that the synthetic was the same as wood or that the American was similar to either the hogsback or the sportster. So yes, the question would be where to determine a model change.

There will always be more questions than answers when it comes to the Czech firearms so again I wish you all the luck, I really think you will need some in your research.

By the way, you have a nice model two there. An original Brno to be sure. How can we tell so easily, that it's not made elsewhere. The date of 67, the wide dovetails, the textured action and of course the original Z inside the rifling trade mark from their company. The fact that it has Brno in the correct places also helps but there are many firearms with Brno written on them that are not made in the same company and this is where so many people have problems.

.

[Steyr 22]

Hi Dancz

I have the reply from the author that I mentioned.

I think I am wrong about the "Trade Mark" idea, but Gary Przbilla has mentioned that the BRNO a.s. "Z Banner" Trademark has just been sold:

"CZ" and "Brno" are trademarks, commies excepted! (See G&G issue 58 concerning the recent sale of the Brno Z-banner trademark.)

 

Any idea what the Z Banner trademark looked like?

I will post all of Gary's responses as they are very informative.

Oh and as I said before about defining different models . . . . Aaaaaaarrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!  

[Steyr 22]

Dear Les,

 

I didn't go to Blackwood High, but I'm sure the other Gary Przibilla must have been a fine fellow. He has a good name, anyway!

 

 

My interest and historical knowledge of Brno rifles ends with the demise of the ZKK model. I have a passing interest in the CZ 452, 527 and 550 models, but only due to their original Brno lineage.

 

In the mid-1960s, Brno rifle and small arms production was transferred to the National Corporation Presne Strojirenstvi, at Uhersky Brod, home of the current Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ) firearms company ? and the transfer itself was carried out between 1964 and 1966.

 

Thereafter, the Model 2s, ZKKs, ZKB 680 (Fox), CZ 527, 550, etc., etc., were all built at the Uhersky Brod plant, irrespective of whether the guns were marked "Brno" or "CZ." The Communists nationalized the Czech firearms industry, and were well aware of marketing value of the "Brno" brand. "Brno" appeared on many firearms which weren't made in - or by, for that matter - Brno. Later, the companies went their separate ways, but that's another story (as documented in past G&G articles, of which I've enclosed a list).

 

Zbrojovka Brno has folded, and Pavel Zeman has left the firearms industry entirely. He worked for Zbrojovka Brno, not CZ (see enclosure, The Recent Happenings in Brno, published in Guns&Game issue 58).

 

I've seen only one CZ "Super Exclusive." It was built by CZ, in Uhersky Brod. As noted, Zbrojovka Brno (in the city of Brno) haven't built such rifles since c. 1966.

 

New Zealand Guns&Hunting (NZG&H) issue 86, Jan-Feb, 2005, tested a CZ Super Exclusive. It stated: "These particular CZs, which have the words 'Super Exclusive' stamped on their barrels, are part of a second shipment purchased by Olin Corp (Winchester) in Australia. The first run of 400 rifles sold out across the ditch quickly. Following which Olin acquired a second batch of 200. The rifles being marketed in New Zealand ? are part of that second allocation and may be the only examples that reach our shores.
Contact Peter Maxwell (NZG&H) at nzguns@clear.net.nz

 

It's the only article on the model I have seen.

 

 

My following letter was published in NZG&H issue 102, September-October, 2007. It was intended to be a "fog-clearer," appeared on page 3, and addressed some of your historical (company name) questions:

 

 

 

Dear Peter,

 

All's going well over here, and I hope you are well. Congratulations on reaching, and passing, NZG&H issue #100.

 

Always be on the alert whenever you see the brands "Brno" and "CZ" in close proximity ? and be alarmed when you see them articulated (NZG&H issue 101, pp. 56 and 57).

 

The pictured, and referred-to, action/rifle is a CZ 527. It is not a Brno. A popular misconception that often occurs in print.

 

In "Brno Model 1," in Guns&Game issue 41, Jan.-Mar., 2004, I wrote, "Note that while there is an historical connection, the companies are competitors. 'CZ' marked rifles are not Brnos, and vice versa. It is a quite common mistake that arms manufactured by either company are referred to as 'Brno' firearms. That's no more accurate than calling a Remington a Winchester."

 

CZ's 527 is based on Brno's ZKB 680 "Fox," a .222 Remington calibre rifle which was first manufactured in 1971. The Fox was basically a   scaled-up ZKW 465 Hornet rifle, a Zbrojovka Brno design which dates from the mid-1940s.

 

Perhaps some historical confusion arises from the fact that the Communists nationalized the Czechoslovakian firearms industry after WWII. To further muddy the waters, some "Brno"-marked rifles (including the Fox) were built by the National Corporation Presne Strojirenstvi, at Uhersky Brod, home of the current Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ) firearms company.

 

My letter published in NZG&H issue #95 is a useful reference. I also touched upon the subject in my latest article, "Zbrojovka Brno - ZKK Series," in Guns&Game issue 55, Jul.-Sep., 2007.

 

Granted, the Brno and CZ company histories are inextricable. I've studied the subject for many years, and I'd like NZG&H readers to have the best understanding possible.

Sincerely, Gary

 

 

CZ has long fiddled with the original ZB (Zbrojovka Brno) designs, the purpose being to save costs and expedite production. Your 1967 ZKM 452 (Model 2), although built in Uhersky Brod, is a wonderful gun, made just like those in 1954, when the model was introduced. In 1968, overall quality deteriorated markedly. It's best to collect the "early" guns, particularly those made in Brno by ZB. The modern CZ 452s are similar to the original design, but include many short-cuts.

 

 

"CZ" and "Brno" are trademarks, commies excepted! (See G&G issue 58 concerning the recent sale of the Brno Z-banner trademark.)

 

 

The following appeared in "CZ Newsletter," Spring, 2003:

 

Subsidiary CZ-USA. "Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ) founded its own subsidiary company in Nevada in 1997 and in 1998 moved to the more central and accessible Kansas City."

 

Undoubtedly, CZ-USA "instigated" the 3/8-inch dovetails. In 2002, firearms sold by CZ in the USA represented 39% of their worldwide sales, including:

 

 

CZ 452 Special .22 LR ? 3724 rifles

 

CZ 452 Scout .22 LR ? 1996

 

CZ 452 American .17 HMR ? 1480

 

CZ 452 American .22 LR ? 1151

 

 

(Poor old Brno, who "invented" the model [ZKM 452], faced bankruptcy.)

 

With a market like that, the rest of the world gets standard US dovetails on its CZ .22s.

 

 

Another Brno/CZ "confuser" is name similarity. The following is from my (as yet) unpublished manuscript, but may be useful:

 

 

"Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, A.S. (Czechoslovak Arms Factory, Ltd.) in Brno, built Iranian Model 98/29 7.92 mm long rifles as late as 1938. Abbreviated CZ, and later named Zbrojovka Brno, A.S. (Arms Factory Brno, Ltd.), this company is frequently confused with the current CZ - Ceska Zbrojovka, A.S. (Czech Arms Factory, Ltd.) in Uhersky Brod."

 

 

It's all a bit tricky, Les! I hope I've helped in some way.

[Steyr 22]

(For Guns&Game magazine issue 58, April-June, 2008)

 

 

 

The Recent Happenings in Brno

 

 

 

As noted in GUNS&GAME issue 57, Mr. Pavel Zeman wrote from Zbrojovka Brno a.s. (Arms Factory Brno) in June, 2005: "As to your previous questions, I am sorry I will not be able to tell you ? due to the fact that this firm has gone through so many changes and some records have been lost." I wrote that Brno's Corporate Headquarters in Prague had since closed. Other organizational changes at the Zbrojovka Brno (ZB) were documented in G&G issues 41 and 55.

 

   
Brno was declared bankrupt in March 2003, but Judge Jiri Berka kept the group's firearms unit operating. Shortly after, ZB emerged from bankruptcy but fell back in, in October ('03). Zbrojovka Brno has folded: "So, the game is over ?" wrote Pavel Zeman, on 10^th November, 2007.

 

   
Zbrojovka Brno's facilities were bought by a Slovak firm for more than USD 30 m. The owners want to support various business activities in the future.

 

   
The majority of the former ZB employees transferred to Brno Rifles Ltd. (a subsidiary of Ceska Zbrojovka, Uhersky Brod), which was established in Brno to continue the production of the former ZB shotguns. CZ proclaimed: "? the objective is to resume the world-acclaimed tradition associated with firearms manufactured in Brno, especially ? shotguns." "In this way the famous brand of Zbrojovka Brno has its successor ? just thanks to Ceska Zbrojovka." It's a bit over the top, but you get the picture.

 

   
Pavel Zeman, who worked at the Zbrojovka Brno for 46 long years, joined Arms Brno Ltd., a company which commenced business in September, 2006. Originally domiciled at Lazaretni 7 (formerly Zbrojovka Brno's address), Arms Brno intended to purchase and market ex-ZB stock, and later on to manufacture guns as well. The remaining Zbrojovka Brno guns were divided into eight "parcels," each worth about USD 95,000, and offered for auction on 20^th October, 2006. The Arms Brno venture failed.

 

Brno's famous Z-banner trademark was sold to an undisclosed buyer on Tuesday, 6^th November, 2007, for one and one half million Czech crowns (approx. USD 57,000). But don't be surprised if the banner "appears" on the guns made in Brno by the new CZ Uhersky Brod offspring, Brno Rifles Ltd.

 

 

Gary Przibilla, January, 2008.

[Steyr 22]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

Guns&Game articles by Gary Przibilla
Issue	Date	Title
8	Oct-Dec 1995	Mauser '98 - Excellence by Design
9	Jan-Mar 1996	Zbrojovka Brno ZKM 611
11	Jul-Sep 1996	Kimber Mauser M96 .243 Win. Sporter
13	Jan-Mar 1997	Kimber Mauser M98 .280 Rem. Sporter
16	Oct-Dec 1997	Mauser 98 Original (With Full Wood Stock)
20	Oct-Dec 1998	The M98 Custom Rifle
30	Apr-Jun 2001	An Evening with Roy Weatherby
34	Apr-Jun 2002	Pete Grisel's Rifle
38	Apr-Jun 2003	The Last Grisel Guns
41	Jan-Mar 2004	Brno Model 1: The Clockwork Rimfire
43	Jul-Sep 2004	ZKM 452 Golden Anniversary 1954-2004
48	Oct-Dec 2005	Brazilian Infantry Rifle, Model 1908
49	Jan-Mar 2006	CZ's ZKM 452 Golden Anniversary Rifle
53	Jan-Mar 2007	Swedish Mauser M1896 "Hand Grenade"
55	Jul-Sep 2007	Zbrojovka Brno ZKK Series
57	Jan-Mar 2008	Brno Model ZG 47
58	Apr-Jun 2008	The Recent Happanings in Brno (letter/article)

For those that don't know of "Guns & Game", it is a magazine produced in Australia by the Safari Publishing Co Pty Ltd whose address is PO Box 270, Nyngan, New South Wales, Australia, 2825.  

 

Back issues are available for AUD 7.00 (within Australia) and AUD 13.00 (for any other country).

 

 

Their email address is gunsgame@gunsgame.com and their website is located at www.gunsgame.com .

 

 

This information is taken from the Editorial page of the January-March 2008 issue.

[Steyr 22]

I have just had almost all of my cherished "beliefs" regarding the Ultra Lux dashed to pieces! and some of my "understandings" about the relationship of CZ-UB and CZ-BRNO skewed irretrievably - much to my enlightenment.

I think I have learned a lot by this post. I did say that I wanted to hear the answers - even if they proved me wrong!

I think the question of the CZ "trademark" being used by 2 companies (as I saw them) is answered by Gary's comments regarding the transfer of production to Uhersky Brod somewhere in the period 1964-66 of the BRNO production and the "creation" of a new company (in name only?) somewhere about that period (CZ-UB) and then the later separation of BRNO a.s. from CZ-UB creating my confusion as to there being CZ-BRNO and CZ-UB running concurrently and "both" using the CZ (within rifling) symbol at the same time.

Cheez, I hate it when I'm proven wrong, but I love it even more when I am learning something new!

I am about to write back to Gary thanking him for his replies and inviting him to have a look at this forum (beginning with this post).  Perhaps we can all ask questions and supply answers to the enrichment of all.

[dancz]

As I said in a post above

Steyr 22: Firstly GOOD LUCK to you. You may need a little (or more) if you are about to do some serious research with anything to do with the CZ and Brno. I respect anyone that undertakes such a difficult task willingly.

I have found that for almost every rule with the Czech's that the there is an exception.

In your post #13 you say "First - I believe that the Z inside the rifling symbol is not a trade mark! My 1967 BRNO has this marking on it and it is definitely not made by CZ-UB." Are you now saying that the Z inside the rifling could now be a trademark?

Also are you saying that your 1967 was made by CZ rather than the original Brno company? As Gary said that the original Brno have made no rifles since 1966?

Thank you for all the information, it has raised many points, I have so many questions that I now have to sit back digest the information.

I hope that you will be available to help answer some of them for me. I would love to be able to get my head around these different companies and when they made what.

[Steyr 22]

Hi Dancz

Like you, I need to digest the information (also your last long post).

and yes . . . I Have a CZ not a BRNO (sniff! ). It was interesting to read about the changes that CZ made after 1968 though (meaning that my 1967 is still made as a BRNO was intended to be made!) and these changes may disappoint some of the CZ owners out there - maybe increase the interest in early BRNO's?

My fault in the thinking about the "trademark" was in thinking that CZ-BRNO and CZ-UB were concurrent companies. I knew that production of the ZKM 452 was now by CZ-UB but hought of this company as a separate entity from CZ-BRNO (which went into receivership recently - and thereby made me think that this company had been in existence all along).

Will keep in touch.

[dancz]

Okay, I got around to checking a couple of past notes on the Ultra Lux. In post #4 I mentioned there were at least three different models that were similar with the same long barrel etc. The three models I know of are the Ultra Lux, the Super Brno SAA 2500 and the Super Exclusive.

I class them as different models because they are called different.

[Jefferito]

Greetings!

I suppose you could classify them as 3 different models, but while CZ-USA calls it the Ultra Lux, the barrel has SUPER EXCLUSIVE engraved on it and I have never seen any of them with Ultra Lux engraved on them anywhere. Of course, other markings do vary on them as well, but other than markings and stock finish, they do seem to be the same rifle. My observation is that they all have a 28.6 inch barrel, the same sights front and rear, the same dovetails, and the same beechwood stock. It also appears that they have all been made in the same factory in Uhersky Brod, on the same machinery, but with the name of the company perhaps different depending on when made. Another thing I'm wondering is whether the earlier production have the plastic magazine well as the current ones do. I also find it somewhat amusing that the Lux has a walnut stock while the Ultra Lux has beechwood.

In any case, I treasure them and they are quite nice regardless of who made them.

Regards,
Jefferito

[dancz]

So it would appear from a couple of posts here that there needs to be some clarification as to what would determine a new or different model. For me it would be if the rifle had different markings and was called something different such as the "Super Exclusive" against the "Super Brno SAA 2500"

Any change from the norm would also raise my interest and if I had the opportunity I would collect the same rifle if there was a difference to it even if it was the same model. So what should we refer to as a different model if it is not because it has different markings?

If it was not for markings being different how would the 452's be named as different models, would we base things on barrel length? Barrel finish? Barrel thickness? Open sight type? Action finish? How the metal is held into the stock? Stock shape? Stock material? well you get the picture. And then of course there is the problem that if we rely on the barrel and/or action markings we would also run into trouble. There are so called different models that have the same markings but are quite different in many other ways.

Really in the broadest since there is only one model of the 452 simply with differences in some of the above. We could say that there is only one model with different options?

So what are your feeling on this??

[Jefferito]

Greetings!

No, I would say that there are many models of them, just as you would for the Remington 700 or the Winchester Model 70. I would classify the Ultra Lux (SUPER EXCLUSIVE) as a variant unto itself, but it does get somewhat cloudy doesn't it? I wish I could find my earliest one with the orange stock and check the markings against the more recent ones. Those with the orange stock were not cataloged by CZ-USA, thus there is a likelihood that they were a contract run for someone else that was either cancelled or the order was reduced and then those rifles were picked up by CZ-USA and sold at cheap prices. The fact that some time elapsed before they were available again, albeit now cataloged and with a normal finish and a higher price, leads me to believe that CZ-USA simply saw that there was a market for them here based on sales. If you look at the Czech CZUB website this model is not mentioned and I don't believe it is available anywhere but here in North America.

As far as how do you define the different models dancz, everything you mentioned in your post above applies in some way. Note that the various models of other rifles do not always have specifics engraved on them. All Remington 700 rifles are marked only as Remington 700, thus a receiver could be used to make any model and the only variable is whether the chambering calls for a long or a short action. We all know a CZ 452 Varmint just by the looks of it as it is obvious. So too, the American and the Lux. However, the Special (or Trainer) looks just like the Lux, the only difference being a beechwood stock instead of walnut.

I happily own examples of most of them!

Regards,
Jefferito

[Steyr 22]

Hi Jefferito

Regarding your comment:

"If you look at the Czech CZUB website this model is not mentioned and I don't believe it is available anywhere but here in North America".

Gary Przibilla has included a mention of Olin Australia having ordered in 400 and (I think) 200 of the Ultra Lux's in 2 shipments. The first shipment of 400 were sold out "over the ditch" (the Tasman Sea - between Australia and New Zealand) and the last shipment of 200 were sold in New Zealand (?).

I think that Dancz is from New Zealand and has 3 examples - purchased in New Zealand?

This shows that America was not the only place that they were exported to, but as to where else - who knows.

Just thought I would mention this as the Internet does seem to be America-centric in it's thinking.