452 Ultra Lux wood?

[retgarr]

I am going to be getting a 452 Lux or Ultra Lux soon and was wondering about the wood options on the Ultra Lux. I know the CZ-USA site says the ultra is in beech only but I keep seeing specs from various retailers listing it in walnut too. I would like to know if they are mistaken or not. Also if anyone has an opinion on the difference between the barrel lengths of the lux and the ultra lux. I am a competition shooter and shoot a 27" anschut so naturally the longer barrel appeals to me.

[Charitup]

I have the Ultra I was not offered nor did I see any literature that suggested I could anything except Beech for the stock.  For the standard Lux with the 24" barrel you can get Walnut.  I bought mine because of the 28" barrel.  I grew up hunting with an old Winchester model 67 with a 27" barrel.  I like mine with the Beech stock and think it looks very good.  Sorry I am not capable of doing pictures or I would show it to you.  Maybe someone else will be able to show you one.

[Jefferito]

Greetings!

The Ultra Lux has Super Exclusive engraved on the barrel, yet CZ-USA markets it as the Ultra Lux. It seems kind of dumb since the Lux has walnut, so it follows that the Ultra Lux would have upgraded wood, but in fact has beechwood just as the Training Rifle does, which is otherwise just like the Lux with a 24.6 inch barrel. The shape of the stock on the Ultra Lux is also a little different in addition to having the longer barrel.

If you had bought the Ultra Lux several years ago you would have gotten a strange orange finish on the stock where now it just has a normal wood finish on the beechwood stock. The other difference is the gold finish on the trigger and it comes with a 10 round magazine.

Regards,
Jefferito

[Steyr 22]

I may stand corrected (especially if I get a hiding from someone that actually knows what they are talking about! ), but here is what I remember:

The Ultra Lux was not made by CZ-UB. I think it was made by CZ-Strakonice - an entirely different company.

I have read other posts here that state that CZ-USA does not acknowledge this rifle as one of theirs (and was therefore not sold by them), and I have read some posts that state that the poster received information about the Ultra Lux from CZ-USA!  I suspect that the first situation is the correct one (and the second scenario was probably confusion with the CZ-UB Lux model?).

So . . . . . as the Ultra Lux is not a continuation of the CZ-UB line up, there is no reason that it should be expected to "fit in" with the CZ-UB product range.

The stock is as it is and is not a model up or down from any CZ-UB products (no matter the similarity in names) but is just different, and ditto for the action and barrel - they are peculiar to the Strakonice factory (no matter how closely the action resembles a CZ-UB product).

As an example of what I am trying to say, one does not try to fit the Winchester Sporter into the Ruger line up just because it is an American rifle and "similar" in design (a poor comparator but I think I am getting my point across).

Note: I believe this multiple manufacturer situation was a common situation in Communist Czechaslovakia where many factories produced very similar rifles and then sold them under the one name (BRNO).  Is this still happening with CZ-UB? Note the different actions of the American and the Lux models for instance (the different number of action screws and different dimensions of the Dove Tails for example).

Therefore (in conclusion), I think that the only confusion left is in the mind of the posters who think that the Ultra Lux is a CZ-UB product!

Just my 2 cents worth.  

[dancz]

I tend to embrace most ideas about the Czechs with an open mind but this concept is new to me. Are you able to show me what the trademark looks like. I was always under the impression that there were three main and different trademarks used on these actions and that these trademarks determined where and who made the rifle. The Brnos were also a slightly different story. My understanding is that we often see the complete range of these rifles called Brno or CZ. Often the CZs are called Brno and of course this is acceptable because of where they are made but? it has always been my understanding that a company could only use their own trademarks and not those of another company even if made in the same city.

 

 

 

I am also aware that there are at least three different rifles usually thought, or often thought to be the same, all having the same shape of stock and the same barrel length and action type as the ultra lux. I have not seen each in person but have always assumed that the trademarks were the same.

 

 

 

The thing is that mine has the same trademark as most of my other CZ's. One thing that you guys in the States find is that most of your CZ actions may have the CZ Kansas importer markings on the action because of your import regs. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Mine does not have this because it has not come through the USA to NZ.

 

 

 

Now when I compare the action markings (excluding the CZ Kansas etc) to other CZ actions and barrels they are the same. I really can't find any difference other than the obvious model barrel, stock, trigger etc. I have to admit though that I am short of many different models which could shed more light on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can see the obvious difference of the longer barrel when seen among the normal CZs. Here are about ? of my Czech rimfires, I really must get to update this photo with the rest.

 

 

[dancz]

retgarr: if you can get a walnut one then take it. They are quite rare the more common are orange or brown stained beech

[dancz]

Charitup: There have been at least three different stocks offered on the Ultra lux. Walnut in limited numbers and then two colours of beech. One orange in colour and the other more of a brown. I posted a pic of mine amongst some of my other Czechs here is one on it's own.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steyr 22]

Hi guys

I am trying to find some evidence for my statements, so this may be a little jumbled:

From: http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/czech-firearms/12377-cz-ultra-lux.html

"I knew it was a little different when I bought it and the box it came in had a sticker that read "452 Ultra Lux" placed over the original that read "ZKM Lux"" - snakebite

Note that ZKM is not a CZ-UB model designator, it was used by the BRNO factory as a model designator (so I am wrong about Strakonice).

and from the same site:

"The CZ Ultra Lux was actually made by Zbrojovka Brno, not Ceska Zbrojovka-Uhersky Brod. CZ-UB and CZ-USA do not list the rifle, because it is not their product." -  FEG

and from: http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_CZ452.htm

"The 29 inch barreled 452 is marked on the upper barrel "Super Brno 2500 ", and on the left side of the action the standard CZ-452-2e."

Again we have BRNO mentioned and the model suffix "2e" is a BRNO model designator (the "e" meaning "Lux").

I think I could find more examples and quote them, but as these are from the first 2 sites that I visited I think that they will suffice to back up my statements regarding the Ultra Lux not being a CZ-UB product.

I also think that this supports my question regarding the manufacture of different CZ-UB models being made by different companies and thereby explaining the (minor) differences in the actions (dovetails, etc). This could be an interesting area for research.

Again, just my 2 cents worth.

[Jefferito]

Hello Steyr,

I bought my first one of these at least 5-6 years ago, and all of mine are marked the same (SUPER EXCLUSIVE on the upper barrel instead of SUPER BRNO 2500) and the only noticeable difference is that the stocks used to be orange but now come with a normal beechwood finish. All of mine have been Uhersky Brod production, but as with many of the CZ production, they used to be BRNO models with different model numbers, designations, etc, but the rifles have evolved somewhat as the years have passed and Czechoslovakia threw off the yoke of communism and then split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and companies changed. My rifles have all been imported by CZ-USA from CZ-Uhersky Brod, and the boxes reflect that as do the actions. I have seen the SUPER BRNO 2500 a few times though, so I know they do exist, but I don't think the triggers had the gold coloring and were blued. Otherwise, the rifles look pretty much the same.

Good luck with your research and please keep us updated!

Regards,
Jefferito

[Steyr 22]

This may confuse the issue even more . . . . (from http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=90717 )

"The BRNO Rifles, s.r.o. Company engaged on 16th October 2006 into employment 29 employees of former Firearms Production Division of Zbrojovka Brno a.s., as the estate of which is currently under bankruptcy proceedings.

The objectives of BRNO RIFLES, s.r.o is to reassume the world-acclaimed tradition associated with firearms produced by Zbrojovka Brno, especially in the field of shotguns production.

Yesterday's engagement of work force meant culmination of longtime process bound to keep the firearms production in Brno. BRNO RIFLES, s.r.o. adopted to this day also many other measures for advancement to this goal. Among others put up for auction the machinery and equipment needed for shotguns production and took over other assets associated with this type of manufacturing activities.

BRNO RIFLES, s.r.o. is a business entity, which is 100% ownership and possession of EXIMAT a.s., the Company which at the same time is the majority shareholder of Ceska zbrojovka a.s. Uhersky Brod."

So . . . as CZ is a generic "trade mark" (it simply means Czech Arms Factory - and any manufacturer could use it), then this is not a Trade Mark (as we know the term) of THE manufacturer. The same "trade mark" could appear on different manufacturer's products.

The same thing happened in the early days of BRNO rifles with many manufacturers using the BRNO "trade mark" to associate their rifles with those of the company that became famous for the quality of their weapons.

I have a lead to someone at the CZ-UB factory (responsible for the history of the company?) so I will try to find out more information "direct from the source" regarding why there is a difference in the actions of various models of the 452's and 453's, and just who produced the Ultra Lux (3 models Dancz?).

As you will understand, this may take some time!

I will update this post as I get any new information.

In the meantime . . are there any Ultra Lux owners out there that can help with markings, model numbers, information, photos?

[Steyr 22]

Jefferito

You made ther comment that "My rifles have all been imported by CZ-USA from CZ-Uhersky Brod, and the boxes reflect that as do the actions."

Do you mean that all of your Ultra Lux (as opposed to Lux) models have been imported by CZ-USA?

Can you list examples of the "evidence"? You mention the boxes and actions.

Can you do pictures?

This could shed a light on some of the issues!

Looking forward to your post.

[dancz]

Steyr 22: Firstly GOOD LUCK to you. You may need a little (or more) if you are about to do some serious research with anything to do with the CZ and Brno. I respect anyone that undertakes such a difficult task willingly. Would you mind giving me a little insight into your Czech experience. I love it when knowledgeable people such as yourself are willing and able to spare the time to help others of us that share your interest.

I have so many questions for you to shed some light on. How many different models are there? I use the term loosely and would class a different model as one with a different stock type or different model name and or markings. The ones I have seen are the "Super Exclusive", "Super Brno SAA 2500", and there was one marked a little different but I'll have to find the photo. Along with these markings were at least three different stocks. One in walnut supposedly only 110 were made. Then there were two different stains used on a beech stock.

Now as to trade marks. I agree that any manufacturer could loosely use the term Brno or CZ but it is my understanding that the "Trade mark" is restricted to a particular company. The trade marks I refer to are the Z inside the rifling for Brno or the Z with a minus sign through it which is inside a C that is then inside a circle, then of course there is the later CZ trade mark that looks like a pistol. There have been several others over the years as well that are different in appearance. I don't refer a place name as being a trade mark.

There are photos of ultra lux boxes with the markings of "CZ - USA , Kansas City, KS USA" why would this be so if CZ - USA did not import them as part of their product line. Also why did they have them listed on their site in 2006? Why do the boxes also have "Ceska Zbrojovka/production number" and then include a number as well as a bar code if they were not made by them? Also on the box is "CZ 452 Ultra Lux". The box is also marked in places with "Ceska Zbrojovka" and the CZ pistol looking trade mark.

If the Ultra Lux is not CZ and it certainly is not Brno made, as in Zbrojovka Brno, then where did it come from and why are the boxes that carry it covered with standard CZ markings. Perhaps another Czech mystery exists?

I await your insight with much anticipation and a little trepidation.

[Jefferito]

Hello Steyr and dancz,

Regarding my Ultra Lux rifles, they are mostly back in their boxes and access to them is somewhat difficult as they were reboxed for a move. However, in answer to your question, dancz has pretty well covered why I say they were manufactured in Uhersky Brod and imported by CZ-USA. In addition to his comments, the actions are engraved with the typical CZUB markings, proofmarks, etc, as my other CZ 452 rifles have. The other things (test targets, owners manuals, etc) are also the same as the other rifles from Uhersky Brod. Some of my older CZ rifles (452 and 527) were in blue and white boxes imported by Action Arms of Philadelphia in the late 1980's and early 1990's, but these longer (28.6 inches) barrelled CZ 452 Ultra Lux (SUPER EXCLUSIVE) rifles were all of more recent vintage and the boxes have the markings and bar coded end data stickers of CZ-USA.

I was told (but was, and still am, skeptical of this) that the original importation of the orange stocked CZ 452 Ultra Lux rifles was due to a contract for several thousand of them being placed with CZUB for use as training rifles by a middle eastern country somewhere who then backed out of the deal and the rifles were then surplused and bought by CZ-USA. They did not initially catalog them as they did not expect them to be in such big demand. I paid less than $180.00 for the first ones. They sold so well that CZ-USA ordered more and started cataloging them. Naturally, the price goes up and up as demand goes up and sales continue at a high pace. They are now well over $300.00. Perhaps someone else can verify the validity of this story. I must admit that I am at a loss to explain the orange stock on a rifle meant for the sporting market!

In any case, I don't have digital photo capability so I can't post photos.

Regards,
Jefferito

[Steyr 22]

Hi Guys

First - I believe that the Z inside the rifling symbol is not a trade mark! My 1967 BRNO has this marking on it and it is definitely not made by CZ-UB. As I have mentioned earlier "Ceska Zbrojovka" means simply "Czech Arms Factory" - just as we would use the term "Manufacturing Company" - and there are many Czech Arms Factories. Note: At least 2 have used the same symbol - BRNO and CZ_UB (which were only recently joined under EXIMAT a.s.).

I will have to see if I can see a copy of the Pistol looking "trade mark" before I can comment (if at all on this one).

I will be seeing a friend of mine next Saturday (who has a BRNO and 2 CZ's), so I will look at their markings and compare them to mine.

I don't have a Macro lens on my camera but I will try to get detailed photos of the markings of each rifle.

Jefferito - your comments "The other things (test targets, owners manuals, etc) are also the same as the other rifles from Uhersky Brod" and "were all of more recent vintage and the boxes have the markings and bar coded end data stickers of CZ-USA" intrigues me as this contradicts what I have read before - so I am even more keen to clear this up!

Dancz - Czech experience? I have only just learnt how to spell it!

If you mean BRNO / CZ knowledge - It has grown over the years (to a small sapling) and has been especially helped since the advent of the Internet (much easier to research things - as long as one can sift the chaff from the wheat).

A recent series of articles in a local magazine following various BRNO offerings is the lead that I have spoken of. The author treats his articles seriously as reference material for future researchers to use and has a friend in the CZ-UB factory who corresponds with him on matters CZ-UB and BRNO. I have sent an email off to the author and have asked him some of these questions with the expectation that either he will know or will ask his friend at CZ-UB for the info - and hopefully get back to me with it.

As regards models and how to identify them - there is a good write up here http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212830 in which the author of the post goes into some detail about the Model 2 rifles (and compares them to the Model 1's and Model 5's) and gives an insight into what you might call models - for instance there are (in the first few years) 2 stock types for the Model 2 each with 3 variations of wood and finish (and this does not include the later Hogsback stock with all of it's permutations) which he equates to 6 variants for the early Model 2's based on that information alone!

I think you may need to define the word "Model" yourself to know when you have found a new "Model" or just a slight variation on an already collected "Model" and thereby place limits on yourself as to how far you go. With BRNO Model 2's, I am content to see them as the 9 variants of stock and then limiting a collection to pre 1968 and post 1968 examples of each to show the difference in the standard of finish (well - one example of a post 1968 rifle would be enough to show the massive decline in the standard of finish ). Personally, I am happy with my one 1967 example - well maybe not, I just haven't seen any other "special" ones that have attracted my eye. Did BRNO make any Full Stock .22 rifles prior to 1968?  Nah, didn't think so.

This leads me back into my "other" question which is "why do the CZ 452's actions differ in detail?" and for you Dancz - this will also mean how many different models are there of the CZ 452's? For instance, do early "Americans" have the same dovetails as the current "Americans"? and so on. Aaaaarrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

It's getting very late so I must go.

[Jefferito]

Hello Steyr,

I just went and looked at one of mine. EVERYTHING about the box, the test target, the manual, the other pieces of paper (Czech warranty card), the way of packing things, the action markings, literally everything pertaining to the rifle indicates that it was produced by Ceska Zbrojovka-Uhersky Brod and imported by CZ-USA of Kansas City, Kansas. The stock is a tiger striped beechwood of the hogback style with cheekpiece but no schnabel forend and approximately one inch sling swivels at each end. The barrel is 28.6 inches long and has SUPER EXCLUSIVE engraved ahead of the rear sight on top and CAL .22 LONG RIFLE to the rear on the lower left side, and the action has CZ 452-2E ZKM engraved on the left with the pistol in a rifled circle behind it and then with CZ-USA KANSAS CITY, KS engraved at the rear in much smaller letters. The rifle has a black ventilated recoil pad and a ten round polymer magazine. The box is the older type of smaller box with no styrofoam and the flaps tucking into the box all the way around. The top of the box has (pistol in rifled circle) CZ CESKA ZBROJOVKA UHERSKY BROD, CZECH REPUBLIC at the left end and TRADITION ACCURACY QUALITY at the other end (not ACCURANCY). Both side panels are like the top but without the three last words (TAQ).

I hope this helps clear this up for you.

Regards,
Jefferito

PS: I just looked at another one, slightly older (box price $193.99), and it is the same, EXCEPT that the CAL .22 LONG RIFLE marking is on top of the barrel behind the rear sight and the pistol in the rifled circle is ahead of the CZ 452-2E ZKM on the left side of the action. This one has a five round magazine, and I've not found the one with the orange stock yet.