Question on hunting big animals

[Fifth]

I'm writing a serial about factions of vampires and werewolves slugging it out in Los Angeles. Now I know a little about what you need to kill a 120-180 pound critter, but what do you need to kill a 600-1200 pound critter? The situation would generally be short-range, almost house-to-house firefights.

Second, above and beyond the requirements to kill a big critter, what do you need to kill that critter if it's wearing heavy body armor?

I'm asking because being a refined sissy city-boy, I've never hunted anything that size in my life. I have a wide leeway to go with writing in magic and stuff.

Thanks,

Fifth

[William Chase]

I would suggest for the second part of your question you might want to look into

AR15.COM

They could give you very extensive guidance on AP rounds (armor-piercing). But prepare to take a bit of guff... not mean-spirited, but still...

Bill

[Fifth]

Actually, on AP rounds, I looked into Patricia Briggs' blog-thing on making silver bullets, and it looks like silver bullets may be armor-piercing already.

Thanks, I'll check out that site. Given the slew of vampire movies that have come out lately, I'm used to "guff."

Fifth

[armoredman]

Hi, Fifth, glad you made it.
Realistically, silver bullets are nearly impossible to cast, must be machined, due to the properties of the metal. Also, silver is a soft metal compared to most steels, so any steel core ammunition, such as the Russian made 7.62x54R rifle round with it's mild steel core, is likely to be more "piercing" than silver. Silver is alos a very expenisve metal as opposed to lead and steel.
Most likely in your very fictional series you would need something of a heavy assault rifle, similar to the new KelTec RFB bullpup in 308, http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm , or the AR15 clones in .50 Beowulf, (10 round mag only). A civilian in this case might be best retreating to the 1800s with a howdah style weapon, a pistol sized side by side shotgun or rifle, or the Italian Lupara, same thing, bit longer. With the target being to heavy, a very heavy round may be needed, thus the rebirth of the heavy double rifle in a concealable package, maybe in 458 mag, or for the true Rambos, a 600 Nitro Express. OUCH.

[Fifth]

Thanks AMan. I've looked into casting silver bullets - there's a very interesting piece someone here linked to, it MAY be possible to cast steel-core silver-plated bullets. If it's not possible with human technology, I'll just short-circuit that argument with magic. Thanks for the KelTec link - that looks like precisely what my characters need.

[John Joel Glanton]

...what do you need to kill a 600-1200 pound critter? The situation would generally be short-range, almost house-to-house firefights.

Second, above and beyond the requirements to kill a big critter, what do you need to kill that critter if it's wearing heavy body armor?

I'm writing as a SWAT officer and a hunter.  I have killed deer, elk, feral hogs, and dogs.  I am also a law-enforcement firearms instructor in several disciplines and I have seen bullets go through various types of body armor.  Maybe I can offer something...

A semi-auto, magazine-fed rifle in .308 would work just fine for something like this.  While many people who have never killed large animals and who have never done any entry work might think of more exotic, larger caliber weapons, a .308 would really be all you need for this.  There are other, larger caliber weapons such as .45-70 or .444 that are meant for lever action weapons but that won't really fit the bill.  Any modern, spitzer-pointed hunting rifle bullet will penetrate body armor.  The .223 and 7.62x39 will go clean through level 3 armor.  Someone shooting a .308 battle rifle/carbine, using modern hunting bullets would be very well prepared to face large critters wearing body armor. That person would need to use ear protection because a few rounds of .308 inside a room will pretty well cancel your hearing for the rest of the day.

One of my favorite weapons is my DSA carbine in .308.  It's very similar to THIS with a picatinny rail on top.  While iron sights are fine, I use either an EOTech Holosight or a cheaper Millett 1-4 power DMS.  The weapon gives me plenty of stopping power on dangerous hogs up close and it would be fine for moose or elk if it was legal....which it's not.  If I knew for a fact that I would have to fight a giant werewolf in body armor, I would not hesitate to use my .308 carbine.  I wouldn't feel the slightest bit "undergunned."  A good, magazine-fed weapon firing 175gr. to 200gr. hunting bullet would ruin their day.

See this article on battle rifles from Larry Vickers, a former Delta guy.

Some other weapons to consider are:

FN SCAR-H
Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM

Keep in mind that poachers in Africa use the standard AK-47 and old FN-FAL's to kill elephants, rhinos, and gorillas. If your character gets one of the aforementioned weapons and a good chest rig with plenty of magazines, he'd be a true force to be reckoned with.

[Fifth]

Wow. That's really helpful, thanks John!

Since I am writing in armed teams rather than individuals, how well would a 12-gauge solid slug work, and what's the effective range on those? I figure each team would carry at least one shotgun because that huge variety of rounds would give them a lot of flexibility when they're never quite sure what they're up against.

[John Joel Glanton]

how well would a 12-gauge solid slug work, and what's the effective range on those?

Depending on the design of the slug and the range at which they impact, body armor can stop a 12 gauge slug.  However, the recipient of the shot will be hurting for sure. Even if one's body armor stopped a slug, the blunt force trauma would be tremendous and it would be normal to expect broken ribs or internal bleeding....again, all depending on slug design, powder load, and the range involved.

There are some who will disagree with me but I consider the absolute maximum effective range of 12 gauge slugs to be 100 yards because they don't hold accuracy past that unless you are using a rifled slug barrel.  Some deer hunters take longer shots with specialty slug guns.  Slugs are phenomenal for work inside 50 yards.  They are extremely effective in CQB/CQC. The beauty of shotguns for tactical work is that a well-trained operator can select the right shell for the right job.  You can breach doors using your breaching rounds (powdered lead or even birdshot in a pinch) and then top off with buckshot or slugs before continuing with clearing. Most trainers advocate the "shoot one load one" approach to shotgun usage in a tactical environment.

The Benelli M1 Super 90 is one of the best semi-auto shotguns available.  It allows for selective shell loading and it has an incredibly fast and reliable action which will load and fire many different kinds of loads.  It remains one of the preferred shotguns for 3-Gun matches (which is what I use mine for) and it can also be fitted with a picatinny rail on top and a small red-dot sight for fast sighting and accurate slug placement. Currently, the Benelli M4 is the "hot" new model which has started to supplant the M1 Super 90.  For semi-auto shotguns, the Remington 1100and 11-87 are also very good as is the FN SLP.  For pump-action shotguns, the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 series still pretty much rule the roost.  Both are very good and extremely reliable I am not a shotgun guru but I personally prefer to use an M1 Super 90 for competition and a Remington 870 for duty....although I don't use a shotgun for duty purposes very often.

The Wikipedia article on combat shotguns is actually very accurate.

[Fifth]

On the shotgun, I'm going to write in the AA-12. I've heard they're not the best, but this is a case where story is going to take precedence. The one "team" I'm going to follow extensively is led by a VERY petite female character, and I've loved the implied visual of this very tiny person wielding a big huge assault shotgun, putting 20 slugs into a mob of werewolves. For a gamers' reference, think Jill Valentine in sensible armor.  Just wanted to confirm that this is realistic.

Thanks for the info on slugs, I'll keep that in mind as I head into the heavy action scenes coming up.

[John Joel Glanton]

On the shotgun, I'm going to write in the AA-12. I've heard they're not the best, but this is a case where story is going to take precedence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhstuvzMiB0

Yeah that ought to work!

[turbodieseli4i6]

I think a Saiga 12 would be my pick, heck about anyone could afford one.
I don't think I would want to carry 500 rounds of 00 buck or slugs around though.
A 20 round drum of bird shot my not kill your imaginary Werewolf, but his eyesight would definitely suffer.

Semi auto
Saiga 12K semi-automatic shotgun

Full auto
Full Auto Saiga-12 (Alliance Armament)