Author Topic: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.  (Read 8998 times)

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Offline KFD147

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I found something interesting that I thought I would share with the forum members. You have rights. Don't give them away.

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/mobile/Traffic_stop_ends_in_APD_complaint

Quote
Traffic stop ends in APD
complaint
Updated: Tuesday, 08 Sep 2009, 10:22 PM CDT
Published : Tuesday, 08 Sep 2009, 9:13 PM CDT

Shannon Wolfson
AUSTIN (KXAN) - A former Central Texas police officer has filed a complaint against an Austin police officer after a Labor Day traffic stop that involved two guns.

Steve Ou was a passenger in a car pulled over on Monday for entering an intersection and getting stuck in a line of traffic when the light turned red. He and the driver were both licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

"It was interesting to me that this one officer immediately decided to handcuff us and take our weapons from us because I've never encountered that from any other law enforcement agency," said Ou.

Ou is a former Elgin police officer who was fired from the force in December 2008 for allegedly using a club to break a suspect's car window after a high speed chase. He had 10 years of law enforcement experience.

The driver of the car involved in the traffic stop recently graduated from a Central Texas law enforcement training academy. He refused to allow the officer to search his vehicle, telling Austin News off camera that he had recently purchased ammunition that was in the vehicle.

"I can hear my friend say I don't have any guns in the car, don't have any drugs in the car, don't have anything illegal in the car, but I don't want you to search my vehicle," said Ou.

While the officer was writing a ticket, Ou called APD dispatch to request a supervisor come to the scene.

"I wanted to file a complaint against how he was treating us," said Ou.

Then, Ou claims the officer refused to return the men's guns unless they left before the supervisor arrived. Texas law allows an officer to take a person's firearm, but they are also required to return it if the person is not detained.

"He refused to give it back to me citing officer safety and saying that if he gave it back that we may kill him or harm him," said Ou. "I thought that was kind of strange because I called and asked for another officer- a supervisor."

Ou claimed even with the supervisor present, the officer wanted to secure the guns in the trunk. They again refused him access - and suggested he leave the guns near a fire hydrant about 30 yards away, then drive away so he did not feel threatened. He said that is exactly what the officer did.

Ou filed a complaint with the Police Monitor's office which means Austin police will conduct an internal investigation.

An APD spokesperson said they take all complaints seriously, but the cannot comment on an any active internal investigation.

Ou said he believes the officer's in car camera captured the incident on video

My wife works in Austin and I would be levid if this happened to her or especially if my kids were in the car.


Jason 8)



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Offline MJZZZ

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 09:59:12 AM »
I have warned my wife that someday if we run into a LEO that doesn't like citizens carrying concealed, she might see me face down and handcuffed for no reason. My LEO contacts while carrying have all be positive so far, but you never know when you're going to run into an a-hole. Sounds like this guy made a bad call and was too embarrassed to back out of it and start over.
"I am a Free Man, regardless of what set of 'rules' surround me. When I find them tolerable, I tolerate them. When I find them obnoxious, I ignore them. I remain free, because I know and understand that I alone bear full responsibility for everything I do, or chose not to do."

Offline Grendel

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 10:13:54 AM »
Hold on people. Before you get out the burning torches and pitchforks, READ the article:

Quote
Texas law allows an officer to take a person's firearm, but they are also required to return it if the person is not detained.

Both things did take place, however, what Mr. Ou is complaining about is that the officer didn't give them back in what he (Ou) felt was a timely manner. The officer neither violated Ou's rights, nor Texas law, according to the article.

You should also remember that the only side of the story being reported in this piece is the complainants', since:

Quote
An APD spokesperson said they take all complaints seriously, but the (sic) cannot comment on an any active internal investigation.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

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Offline shooterdude

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 10:22:22 AM »
What I am reading between the lines is the two guys in the car copped a bit of an attitude.  Carrying a concealed gun, like driving a car and so many other regulated activities is a privilege not a right and must be earned initially and ongoing.

Some of the responses I am reading in this thread are indicative of an area of our society that has gone wrong in my opinion...an irrational sense of entitlement.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:50:37 AM by shooterdude »
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Offline E.Shell

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 10:53:58 AM »
While I agree with most of your post shooterdude, actually, carrying defensive arms IS a Right, and nothing at all like driving a car.

The fact that certain jurisdictions require one to jump through unconstitutional hoops of varying difficulty and then carry a permission slip to exercise this right notwithstanding, it is a right very clearly enumerated in the US Constitution.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Offline shooterdude

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 11:12:13 AM »
While I agree with most of your post shooterdude, actually, carrying defensive arms IS a Right, and nothing at all like driving a car.

The fact that certain jurisdictions require one to jump through unconstitutional hoops of varying difficulty and then carry a permission slip to exercise this right notwithstanding, it is a right very clearly enumerated in the US Constitution.


Well, it sure didn't take as long as I thought for someone to bring up the Constitution in all of it vague glory.  I am not going down your rathole  to argue the second amendment but will say that "unconstitutional hoops" is your opinionated interpretation of what the framers successfully accomplished in drafting the constitution, a high level set of guidelines the broadly shapes our society while allowing all citizens the FREEDOM of interpretation.  THAT is the real beauty of the constitution!
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Offline KFD147

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 03:04:58 PM »
I believe what had happened is the driver handed the officer his CHL along with his DL, which up until the 1 September you were required to if you were carrying  in Texas. The officer then dissarmed both the driver and the passenger, hand cuffed the driver under officer safety and proceeded to write a citiation. All legal in the state of Texas. The officer did nothing wrong. The officer, instead of handing the pistols back to the owners, wanted to place the firearms in the trunk. That is an end run around probable cause to search the trunk. That is your 4th amendment right of no illegal search or seizure without probable cause or a warrant. The driver refused the officer entry into the trunk and requested that their firearms to be returned to them after the officer stated that they were not being detained. The officer has to give you back your property. Otherwise it is theft by a public servant possibly offical oppresion. The officer refused to do so and apparently started asking the driver why he does not want him to look in the trunk. The officer became supicious, since apparently nobody has refused before other than people that want to hide something. A request for a supervisor was called in by the passenger because the passenger thought that the officer was in the wrong. Both the driver and the passenger have LEO training and know the laws as the article and video state. After the officer realized a senior officer was enroute he told the two that he would give them their firearms back if they left before he arrived. After the other officer arrived the legal CHL holders firearms were returned after the officers placed the loaded weapons 30 yards away in the open by a fire hydrant and drove off.

Is it policy to handcuff a CHL holder while on a traffic stop? It is legal for the officer to but what did he see as a threat? Was the passenger in the wrong for calling for another officer/ supervisor since he thought the officer was in the wrong by trying to violate his 4th amendment right? What is wrong with the driver wanting to have his weapon handed back to him instead of placed inside the trunk were the officer could feel safe from the two CHL holders? Did the driver and passenger threaten the officer? Is that why he felt unsafe? I believe the two would be in jail if that had happened. Why would the officer out two CHL holders in public by unsafely leaving their firearms next to a fire hydrant 30 yards away? Doesn't this pretty much out them as CHL holders to the public and make them violate the law by displaying a firearm?

I am just curious and read into it alittle bit. I don't know if I am right, but I definately know it does not sound kosher. I have a buddy that is a LEO down that way. I think I will ask if he knows of the the situation.

Jason 8)




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snw_cz-fan

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 08:53:07 PM »
i have mixed emotions when it comes to firearms, especially ccw. iv carried for years in GA and did so with the idea that it was a privilege, and most LEO i knew personally supported the idea, but here in Fargo, ND i know of several officers that do not support the legally armed citizen, and the wont hide their disapproval of ccw, especially on a traffic stop, but it is here now i do believe we have the constitutional right to carry concealed, provided a court has never deemed you unable to purchase/own a weapon. the constitution does not specify where we are aloud to possess our weapons. i believe it was left open with a purpose. Im sure many firearm instructors agree, i know mine does. I know it is a hassel applying for the permits nowadays, and theres lots of parerwork, but iv decided i do support states requiring firearm courses. In GA there wasnt a course, just local backroundcheck, fingerprints, then send your info to FBI who does the rest, and i tell you, there were people carrying that while may have been upstanding trustworthy people, were not competent with a gun. i would not mind states making sure anyone armed knows how to successfully operate a weapon and can hit a threat from 15 yards away under simulated stress. i knew of people that bought pistols, and did know how to operate the saftey, or field strip, and couldnt hit the broadside of a barn at 7 yards. i appreciate that most states except IA, and MN are "shall issue" and i believe thats how it should be, but i would be all for a mandatory saftey courses, and i see no reason why the NRA would be against it. it just helps insure anyone with a ccw has a resonable amount of skill before being allowed to carry. again thats a difficult proposition when i believe ccw is our right. anyone else with an opinion feel free to share. im never politicaly correct, but that just how i feel! anyway hopefully most of you local and federal LEO support all of us when were carrying ccw. i dont believe i need to where a badge to have the need to protect my life or that of my families and i believe i can end a threat just as easily as a sworn in officer can. thats really the only difference
anyway didnt mean to write a book!!!!

Offline dusty10

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 09:52:43 PM »
Since we are only hearing one side of this I'm going to withold comment either way.  I will say I've been stopped twice in Texas since I've had my CHL and have had no issues with either the city cop or state trooper that stopped me.  Neither one wanted to see the weapon or take it from me.  This story has facts missing.  As I said, it's one side of the story.
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Offline armoredman

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 01:00:16 PM »
Ditto, mucho info not avilable to us.
I grew up in AZ, where open carry is a way of life. CCW didn't come about until 1994, and I think is actually working against us, as open carry is rarer and rarer, and people becoming used to NOT seeing lawfully carried sidearms.
Having said all that, I have had positive encounters with LEOs out here while carrying openly and concealed.

Let's see if more information develops out of this one.

Offline jsk58

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 04:22:15 AM »
I have been stopped three times since I got my CHL a couple of years ago. In every case (one by Texas DPS and twice by Austin Police Department), the officers were very polite, courteous, and professional, and all they did was ask where my weapon was concealed. YMMV of course, but so far all of my experiences so far have been very positive. Oh, and once I talked to two Pflugerville police officers after an attempted carjacking, and again they only asked what I was carrying and where it was concealed.

Offline the perfesser

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 10:14:54 PM »
Gee, shooterdude, when I review E.Shell's reply post to you and your reply to him, it seems to me:
(1) that he addressed you with respect and stated his disagreement with a portion of your initial comment
(2) that you responded at first with sarcasm
(3) that you denigrated his view as being in a "rathole"
(4) that you called him "opinionated"
(5) and, in closing, that you paradoxically noted that we citizens are free to interpret the Constitution's meaning.  Isn't that what E. Shell did?  He even has the freedom to be wrong.  (But I don't suggest that he is regarding this matter.)

What I really don't understand is how ad hominem argument enriches our experience on this forum.

Offline Grendel

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 10:52:09 PM »
Folks, just remember:



and post accordingly. This is a good thread, let's keep it that way.
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Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

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Offline the perfesser

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2009, 11:27:44 PM »
Does anyone have any new information regarding the Texas incident under discussion?

Offline KFD147

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Re: Texas CHL holder had rights violated in the name of officer safety.
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 06:27:05 AM »
It is being investigated at this time. So far nothing new until the investigation is complete. I will let everybody know if it pops on the news again.


Jason 8)


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