Re: Targets and distance - now national crime comparison, friendly

[cptHook]

Sorry, I should have elaborated for our Non US members, 7 yards is what is the most "typical" distance for a gunfight, actually 3-7 yards, as defined by studies by the FBI.

3 to 7 yards? Are you kidding me? Strange country you guys live in.. Here all that distance would need are speedy footwork and hard knuckles

Sorry, just kidding, I just realized how very different our different living situations are. I would like to be allowed to carry.. but I'd never exchange my safe everyday environment to yours.

[armoredman]

My environment is actually pretty safe, even working in the prisons. I have never been assaulted in public, I have never been robbed, (knocking on wood here!!!), and I only had to draw my sidearm twice when working armored trucking years ago, never a round fired. I watched armored trucks in Europe, would NEVER do the job there, over there your criminals use anti tank rockets. I remember reading of a Hell Angel "dispute" in Holland using RPGs.
I like the ability to carry a defensive sidearm, and to own long guns. We crazy Americans pride ourselves on our Minuteman heritage, and still believe ourselves to be the last line of defense of our country. We actually have had to use our rifles to keep our own government on track more than just once or twice, look up the Athens, Georgia incident in 1946.
In all actuality, when you realize we have 300 million people or so, and, according to professor Gary Klecks incredible research, we have 2.5 million defensive uses of a firearm every year, (does not mean shooting, defensive display qualifys), that means .008% of the population has to draw a year, that's not bad at all. Our crime situation, comparitvely speaking to other countries, is either great or horrible, http://www.gunfacts.info/ this place has some interesting data. According to them, in 2005, Scotland was the most violent nation in the civilized world, being three times more likely to be assaulted there than the US. Sweden is in there - you won't like this. According to a 2001 graph from the Dutch Ministry of Justice, (Criminal), the "Victimization In Seventeen industrialized Countries, Sweden had 2.2 percent Contact Crime Victimization, compared to the US at 1.9. that's percentage victimized in 199, latest figure I have here.
C'mon over, it might be safer over here!

[cptHook]

I see =) We most certainly have crime in Sweden. The difference beeing the ownage of guns divided by the amount people in the country (about 10 million people). We are about.. hmm.. say around 300.000 - 500.000 LEAGAL gun owners in Sweden. And even illegal guns have not been very common, or at least they have not been used by who ever is carrying them. But now we're talking 5 - 10 years ago.. lately i've been reading about a shooting every week. But thats it, one murder by firearm per week. And the victim is almost ALWAYS "already know by the police" as the newspaper calls it (aka: he's got a criminal record and this murder was related to his way of life). I think "regular people" is murdered more frequently in your country =o/ Of those 2.2% of contact crimes in Sweden I'd bet my right arm that a good 98% of those are regular drunk fist fights and domestic distubances.. =o|

[cptHook]

By the way, I'm sorry! The discussion above is totally of topic.. maby you can move that somehow to another thread armoredman?

[armoredman]

Absolutely, no problem, heck I got it off topic even worse!

[cptHook]

Absolutely, no problem, heck I got it off topic even worse!

Its easy to do when its such an interesting topic =)

By the way, i guess media is a big parameter in this discussion. Should I listen to Swedish media you guys have to shoot your way to the mailbox because of all the murderers and burglars standing in the way. Pretty much like we have to.. well, some how get past all the naked blondes piled up on our front yards

[armoredman]

No fair bringing in the Swedish Bikini Team! Actually, most of the girsl in that commercial series were brunettes in wigs, but I digress - this will rapidly devolve below my wife's standards.

I have yet had to shoot my way to the mailbox, it's right across the road, can cover that with the house turret guns. Now going to the Post office, that usually requires the armored car and a preperatory atrillery barrage.

[cptHook]

No fair bringing in the Swedish Bikini Team! Actually, most of the girsl in that commercial series were brunettes in wigs, but I digress - this will rapidly devolve below my wife's standards.

I have yet had to shoot my way to the mailbox, it's right across the road, can cover that with the house turret guns. Now going to the Post office, that usually requires the armored car and a preperatory atrillery barrage.

haha.. house turret guns =)

Just for reference - last year a woman got stopped in the middle of a freeway by some guy standing there waving his arms. Naturally she thought he was in some kind of distress, so she pulled over to help him. Turns out he was a bad guy.. he started strangling her on the hood of her car, while hundreds of other cars just went by and did'nt care this one guy actually comprehends what is happening ans stops to help. He hits the bad guy twice in the head with a.. hmm.. that kind of tool you use to change tires in an emergency.. kind of like a crowbar i guess, at least the same weight... The bad guy was of corse knocked out and the lady got to live another day.

Can you guess the aftermath of this? Swedish court sentenced the bad guy to 3 years prison for assault.. and while they where at it the ALSO sentenced the good guy, who saved the lady, to 2 years in prison for assault with the following motivation: "The second blow of the crowbar(Insert correct word here) was unmotivated".

Hello? Unmotivated?

Oh yes, he should have hit him once and waited to see if that was enough? Is that a risk that i would be willing to take in the same situation?

Welcome to Sweden - defend yourself at your own risk.

[armoredman]

Here in AZ he might not have even gone to trial. The Responding Officer can make that determination, or the DA can decline to prosecute. We have a law in this state called justification, defense of a third person. If he would have been justified using or threatening to use physical force or deadly physical force do defend his own life, then he can do so in defense of a third person in the same circumstance, i.e., if he was the person being strangled on the hood of his own car, he can shoot/stab/punch/beat over the head with a tire iron, (that's the word you were looking for. ) then he can do that to defend someone who IS having that done. Legal to use deadly force against murder, yours or someone elses.
Here's the other thing we have, no civil liability. If his use of physical force/deadly physical is ruled justified, the other party, in this case, the strangler, cannot sue him for the event. That is, if he survives. Also his estae/family may not sue.
Of course, here in the US SouthWest, where we have a high percentage of legally armed folks, that strnagler would have been lucky not to be shot and killed.

[cptHook]

Here in AZ he might not have even gone to trial. The Responding Officer can make that determination, or the DA can decline to prosecute. We have a law in this state called justification, defense of a third person. If he would have been justified using or threatening to use physical force or deadly physical force do defend his own life, then he can do so in defense of a third person in the same circumstance, i.e., if he was the person being strangled on the hood of his own car, he can shoot/stab/punch/beat over the head with a tire iron, (that's the word you were looking for. ) then he can do that to defend someone who IS having that done. Legal to use deadly force against murder, yours or someone elses.
Here's the other thing we have, no civil liability. If his use of physical force/deadly physical is ruled justified, the other party, in this case, the strangler, cannot sue him for the event. That is, if he survives. Also his estae/family may not sue.
Of course, here in the US SouthWest, where we have a high percentage of legally armed folks, that strnagler would have been lucky not to be shot and killed.

We have a similar law actually. We DO have the right to defend ourself, our property and a third person. How ever we must not use more force than necessary in the situation. Thats the problem, the DA can decide that an exessive amount of force was used and that well.. you're smoked. From what you are saying I get the impression that a civilian in your state is much more protected by law when defending themselves than a police officer making an arrest? (Regarding exessive use of force/police brutality?) As a civilian can not use exessive force since whatever he does is justified? Or is it a judgement call depending on the situation?

If you see a person steling a tool from your garage and you draw your gun, either killing him or shooting him in the knee making him crippled.. what would the legal aftermath be?

[armoredman]

First, never ever shoot to wound. That shows the jury that you, in your own mind, didn't believe you had the right to use deadly physical force. This means you used a force you knew you were not authorized to use, and congrats, you just bought all kinds of charges, attempted manslaughter, maiming, etc. If you employ deadly physical force, useit correctly, that amount of force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury. Yeah, I have to sit through the class every year for my job. So, yes, a civilian can be hung for excessive force, usually using deadly physical force when physical force was all that was justified, but all circumstances are taken into consideration, even if this is an ongoing domestic violence issue - that's written into the law know.
Civilians do get lots of legal protection, but law enforcement have protection under color of law. The amount of force we can use is dictated by the situation, policy and law. Minimum amount of force neccesary is usually the leixcon. After the fact it becomes an investigation to determine if that was correct. Dash cameras, throat mikes, eyewitness statements, and regular camers, (in my world), will dictate the end result. If the amount of force used is reasonable and neccesary, all good. If someone is beating a handcuffed subject with an ASP, because they spit on them, they just demoted themselves to inmate, and I support that. LE needs to be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
Also, the Castle Doctrine, and all other legal protections can also be applied to LE in certain circumstances, praticularly off duty.
But back to your stolen tool scenario, no, civilian or LE will be hung out to dry for firing at someone stealing a tool from an open unattached garage. You left the door open, and someone snatches a wrench and runs off, oops, your bad, watch him run down the street for a description and direction, call PD, make a report.
NOW, there IS an exception to this.
If your garage is attached to your home, like mine, it is considered an extension of your home. In this state, you have the right to use deadly force to prevent several crimes, two of them being Armed Burglary, and Burglary of an Occupied Structure, aka Burglary in the 1st and 2nd Degree. Should you? That is between you and your God, but Castle Doctrine, and pre existing AZ state law says yes, in that case. Will the DA prosecute? I don't know, we haven't tested that one in court yet. Would I shoot someone who is in my garage stealing something? Not likely. If he comes at me or mine, or attempts to come in my home, then the possability is much higher of me utilizing lawful deadly physical force.
Clear as mud?

[cptHook]

I get the picture =)

Due to storage regulations here in Swedenwe have to keep our guns unloaded in safes (weighing at least 150kg or bolted to the wall/floor). So the chance of me having the time to get the key, get the gun out, open an ammo box, loading a mag and inserting it, i pretty slim =) IF i got woken up in the middle of the night i would probably get the shotgun instead, its faster to load!

If the burgulars keeps themselves to beeing downstairs they can steal what ever.. If they come up the stairs they will hear a great bang..and then i'll fire a warning shot as well

[armoredman]

We do train to avoid warning shots, Massad Ayoob put it best, "A warning shot is a waste of a precious moment and a precious cartridge." Also, you're employing deadly force in a manner inconsistant with it's intended use. Do you have a clearing barrel of other safe backstop in your bedroom? That round is going somewhere, and unless you have a real bullet stopping backstop with no riccochet guarentee, then you have no idea where it's going, even though you are 100% legally responsible for it.
Required to keep locked up and unloaded? That's the pits, reminds me of a joke sign I saw some years ago, put up on the front door - "Burglars please unload gun and remove ski mask before entering."
Could check into a keyless elctronic pad entry, might be slightly faster.
Steal what's in the house, the stuff in my living room is easily replaceable, Stay out of the bedroom area, and the burglar will probably live. I am no John Wayne to go clearing my house guns blazing. If they want the TV in the living room, great - we never watch it anyway.

[youngguns357]

They are times to knock heads and times to use deadly force. Sadly, the cost of a punch may be more than a well placed shot. I've been to europe and walked a many of big city streets, train stations and bars and felt the need for a firearm. But now in USA, i dont feed the dog outside without packing a pistol. Its not fear or even being prepared, its my right. If we dont exercise our rights as adults, in whatever country, then dont complain when there gone. This is America and we built it with guns.

[cptHook]

Well we built ours with beer, magic mushrooms and knifes.. =)