Witness 10mm cracked frame and cracked slide

[jarhead]

 I originally posted this in the for sale forum, but thought that
you may be interested in the/my story as well, since there appears
to be some question as to the veracity of the rumors...

this is no rumor, and it happened >twice<

===============================================================
The saga of two cracked Witness'

(sorry... no pics)

When I first purchased my Wonder Finish 10mm Standard, about 8 years ago,
I must have received one made at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon, as it was
a problem from the start.

The hammer would drop to half-cock with a light trigger pull, requiring a
second DA pull, about half the time.

I spent the $50 in shipping to EAA, and they replaced the sear block for 'free'.

The original barrel looked like it had been rifled with a blunt chisel.  The
accuracy was not affected with FMJ, but would impact about 6" left when shooting
lead, at 50 feet.  I should have whined to EAA, but feared another $50
shipping cost, and I finally bought a second barrel about 2 years ago.
Accuracy restored.

Last August (2009), I noticed a crack in the frame, on the left side rail, just
above and behind the safety. The crack was about 3/8" long,and followed the
upper lip of the rail.  I thought then, and still do, that it was an odd place
for a crack, since there doesn't seem to be much stress at the point, AND I
do not shoot hot loads.

I spent the $50 and sent it back to EAA (with the old crumby barrel) and they
sent me a new gun.  Of course, I had to pay the FFL transfer fee on my side...
but they paid return shipping.

grumble....

The new one has the accessory rail, and the slide was the newer round version.

After about 300 rounds, and during cleaning, I noticed 3 looong cracks:
one on the left side of the ejection port, radiating down and to the rear,
at an angle towards the rail; about 1/2" long.

one on the left side of the front rail, just behind the recoil spring dust
cover and radiating upward diagonally towards the top (front sight), AND
a virtual mirror image crack on the right side.

sigh...

I sent the upper back to EAA (more shipping, but at least it was just 'machine
parts'), and I did NOT include the barrel or spring/guide.

They sent me a brand new Match upper (barrel and spring/guide included),
declaring that it would 'drop in'...  (it is the older square style slide)

wrong...  the slide wouldn't go back more than an inch or two before
binding, with no obvious reason for the hang up, i.e. wide slide or
narrow frame??

REALLY grumble...

I whined to EAA, but they said all slides need to be fitted by them (!), and I
spent another $50 to send it back... They balked at covering the shipping
fee saying I already got a 'generous deal' by getting the Match upper as a
replacement....  (but they did pay return shipping)

true... but now I have a box full of barrels and springs that no longer fit.

For the record, EAA was always prompt and courteous, and if it weren't for
the shipping costs, I would be reasonably happy.

and that's the current status on the most expensive cheap gun that I own.

[bang bang]

unfortunately,  the www has a long memory.

when did it happen to said person?/ you have to ask yourself.

yes he may have got a lemon.  so what.  many people get lemons.   with the WWW at your fingertips you can start your own crusade on not buying this or that item.  look at ciner.  theres some guy that has a website devoted to persuading you NOT to buy from ciner.

to me its a so what.   what i look for is it happening on every 10mm witness outhere or is it a one or 2 or 3 off occurance.   again, so what.  if i get a lemon, i contact the mfg and have them make it good.  if i have to send the gun in for their inspection or whatever, so be it.  i wont whine about having to send the gun in to "fit the slide" who cares?   btw, the gun MFG needs the gun back so they can evaluate what when wrong. 

btw, ive seen this posted in several forums.  whenever someone asks about witness pistols, this will eventually be brought up.   to me, it was unfortunate, but you have to move.  just becaue there is one or more bad apples, doesnt mean ALL of them are, unfortunately he doenst belive so.

[jwc007]

No Pics, too bleep convenient.  

I want to see the damage!

Plus you posted/pasted this same write up over in the "General Classifieds" Section.  Very Bad Kharma for you on that!  That section is for Sale/Wanted items only.

[eric0424]

First, I want to you to the forum.

Second, I'm truly sorry for your trouble.  It happens sometimes, and tanfolgio has reportedly stopped using the round slide on the 10mm in an effort to eliminate the problem.  You wouldn't happen to know how many rounds you had through the first pistol before the frame cracked??  You don't see a lot of reports on the frames, I did have one in here a couple of years ago that cracked the frame in the same place as yours.  Owner asked if it could be welded, I told him maybe, but not by me as I don't own a TIG and the surrounding metal could become brittle and crack as well.  Plus the machine work to get the rails back to operating condition would probably have cost much more than sending it to eaa and paying the FFL fee on a new pistol.  It was the only cracked frame I've actually seen in person.

I find it odd eaa needed to fit the slide on the new 10mm considering they sell complete slide assemblies & magazines as conversion kits that I've been led to believe fit without a problem.  Several members here have conversion kits from eaa and I don't remember them having to fit the conversion slides to their frames.  It could be the fact it was a round slide model with a square slide used as a replacement.      

There's a Compact 40 S&W that just received its fourth slide from eaa on Dec. 24 2010, this most recent replacement is now the thicker and heavier square slide too (first 3 were round) and the owner feels it may be fixed, but it took three trips to eaa at his expense ($60-80 each, plus at least one "return fee" of $20 to eaa) to correct the problem.  It currently has some feeding issues but he believes it can be remedied without another trip to eaa.  I'm waiting to see how many rounds get through it, if it breaks the 400 mark I think it will be the only one but I also think the cracked slides are fixed on his weapon and he seems happy with it now.

What's unfortunate is the fact you've had two witness pistols, one bought 8 years ago and a newer, large framed with the round slide that have failed, bad sear, butchered rifling, cracked frame and a cracked slide.  To me that's a lot of trouble for one handgun purchase.  The sear and the barrel I probably would have replaced on my own, but the slide and frame would have to go back to eaa because there's not much you can do with either one of those.  It does seem your dealings with eaa were somewhat more pleasant than mine though and I'm guessing the pistol is back in working order.  Hopefully all you have to do now is enjoy shooting it.

[fuzz2moe]

To my knowledge, the 4th slide was completely free, shipping to and from and everything. This was also the first and only 40 sw they ever had a problem with.

[jarhead]

" You wouldn't happen to know how many rounds you had through the first pistol before the frame cracked??  "

at least 2,000, probably closer to 3,000

and for the record, I used a 20 lb spring, and did not use hot loads.

[painter]

" You wouldn't happen to know how many rounds you had through the first pistol before the frame cracked??  "

at least 2,000, probably closer to 3,000

and for the record, I used a 20 lb spring, and did not use hot loads.

According to Wolff the stock recoil spring for that pistol is 14# .

If you weren't using hot loads, why a 20# spring?

[eric0424]

" You wouldn't happen to know how many rounds you had through the first pistol before the frame cracked??  "

at least 2,000, probably closer to 3,000

and for the record, I used a 20 lb spring, and did not use hot loads.

The one that came to me for repair had somewhere between 1500-2000 rounds of factory loaded ammo through it and was still using the factory springs, most of the ammo was Remington and Winchester but the owner wasn't really keeping track of round count or brand.  I thought is was a strange location for a crack too, I have seen one 1911 with an aluminum frame crack in the same place though, but it was both rails and it appeared they were being pealed up from the rear. 

[jarhead]

" You wouldn't happen to know how many rounds you had through the first pistol before the frame cracked??  "

at least 2,000, probably closer to 3,000

and for the record, I used a 20 lb spring, and did not use hot loads.

According to Wolff the stock recoil spring for that pistol is 14# .

If you weren't using hot loads, why a 20# spring?

I  suppose 'hot' is relative, but at first I was trying to keep the brass from
being thrown 20 feet away...  but as 'we' now know, there are other solutions.

However, and I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm inclined to use the
strongest spring that will still cycle reliably, especially after all the
advice recommending same on these forums.

My benchmark for a 'not hot' load was Federal lead, which isn't made
anymore, and it cycled a 20 lb spring just fine.

[notjustanothermini]

man i am terriefied, i cant even show this cool pistol, 10mm powerhouse off to anyone with a sound mind.

i have a wonder finish, 10mm rounded top standard witness, kinda thinkin i should of went with the zastava sig clone

but i love cz-75 platform soo, soo, soo much

can i call eaa and just aske them to buy a squared off style blue slide?

i do want a .40, barrel and a .357 sig barrel too, i know i have to get a different slidefor the .357 as the front hole is not the same size right?

how many actual slides are there for this gun, just 2 right.

man i was jazzed u pwhen i got this gun, the whole way home i was saying to my wife, "jesus, babe i really really am super happy and super satisfied with this gun. only to go return home and get on the net to see is CTC laser grips from a cz would work, as i searching i see this crap of cracked slide on 10mm wonderslide guns over and over, actually every single time i see "10mm witness come up in google it is a thread or topic of a cracked slide.

beretta had this decades ago, and the problem was the heat treatment process. there was a standard set my the italians that made them do this or that a ceratin way and led to too much strenght in the steel during the wonder finish process and it makes the metal way too hard and leads to crackes.  well beretta sent production over to the states and they used a stainless stell slide with the cool black beretta finish and problem gone.

so when i buy a slide from eaa for this gun what should i get. i want a 10mm first and them a nother cal. later maybe, well for sure.

i mean even when i get the new slide if its the good ones, i still am putting a sprinco, and a buffer tech setup in it and probably will never shoot full house 10mm out of it. 

so what is going to happen if i am running and drop the gun, will it crack. or i fall off a ladder,

or if i shoot it more than 300 times.

kinda remind's me of the smith and wesson "sigma .380" smith and wesson stated that the gun had a life of 200 rounds and that was it.

[CPTKILLER]

Putting on my engineer's cap, it appears that fractures or cracks is a metallurgical failure caused by:
1.  Bad design
2.  Wrong material
3.  Incorrect heat treating
4.  Lousy QA

After you experience, I won't even consider an EAA product.  Their engineering and manufacturing organization have some serious problems.

[Southern Forester]

I really don't mean to trash or flame, but the large bulk of cracking cases seem to be from very, very low posters.  I don't mean to diminish any legitimate problem, but it seems largely out of proportion with those who shoot and shoot and shoot them.  I, for one, who have owned many of them, have never had a cracked slide.

[bang bang]

I really don't mean to trash or flame, but the large bulk of cracking cases seem to be from very, very low posters.  I don't mean to diminish any legitimate problem, but it seems largely out of proportion with those who shoot and shoot and shoot them.  I, for one, who have owned many of them, have never had a cracked slide.

+1

look at all of the recalled cars.  people are still driving them.

[eric0424]

can i call eaa and just aske them to buy a squared off style blue slide?

i do want a .40, barrel and a .357 sig barrel too, i know i have to get a different slide for the .357 as the front hole is not the same size right?

so what is going to happen if i am running and drop the gun, will it crack. or i fall off a ladder,

or if i shoot it more than 300 times.

eaa may sell you a square slide, but jarhead had to send his frame and slide in for them to be fitted and you may have the same fitment issue.  Some say they've shot 1000's of rounds through their 10mm round slide witness without any problems or modifications, so you could be one of the lucky ones to never have a problem.  Others were unlucky enough to get one to crack with less than 500 rounds through them, and some were unlucky enough to have several slides crack with one pistol.  There are some precautions you could take that may help you avoid the problem, heavier recoil spring, recoil reducers, avoiding +P or high pressure ammo, etc.  I don't think anyone has cracked a slide by dropping the gun though. 

If I were in your position, since you already own the weapon, I would just drop in a heavier recoil spring from Wolff and see what happens.  If it cracks just hope your interaction with eaa is better than mine have been.  Jarhead didn't have an issue getting his first witness repaired when the sear was bad and then replaced when the frame cracked or getting his second one fixed when the slide cracked, aside from the shipping fees of course.  If eaa's standard practice is to replace the cracked 10mm round slides with square slides you may only have to send it in the one time.  If your witness was purchased locally, you may be able to get a refund if it does develop a crack or the shop you purchased it through may deal with eaa to get yours repaired for you and save you some hassle and possibly some shipping fees, and that's only if you have a problem.   Your witness may never give you any trouble.

There was someone here a while back that bought his witness 45 compact through Cabela's and they gave him refund when it cracked the slide.

kinda remind's me of the smith and wesson "sigma .380" smith and wesson stated that the gun had a life of 200 rounds and that was it.

I have a vague memory of hearing about the Sigma.

[jwc007]

I really don't mean to trash or flame, but the large bulk of cracking cases seem to be from very, very low posters.  I don't mean to diminish any legitimate problem, but it seems largely out of proportion with those who shoot and shoot and shoot them.  I, for one, who have owned many of them, have never had a cracked slide.

Same here and very suspect!

I've seen quite a few of the older used 10mm's, both Blued and Wonder Finished, that have been "rode hard and put up wet" that still have the original slides on them.  One of them was so worn that it had no rifling left two inches in front of the Barrel Chamber, yet the rest of it was quite intact.  Could have picked it up cheaply as a "Gunsmith Special", but the 10mm isn't my thing.

It's too early to tell on the longevity of the Rounded Slide versions as yet, but I keep my eye out for them.  I do think the design is wrong as it lightens the Slide too much, removing too much metal.  It's definitely not my thing.  Probably okay for a 9mm, but not much else.  But that's more my aesthetic view of them.  I would rather hear from someone who has seriously shot one in say, .45 ACP.  I'm thinking down the road that the Squared Slide design will make a serious comeback, if it has not done so already.

man i am terriefied, i cant even show this cool pistol, 10mm powerhouse off to anyone with a sound mind.

And THIS is your first post?  Your gun has not even broke yet, you haven't even fired it as far as we know, and you're going nuts about it?  Yeeeesh!  You didn't even bother to properly introduce yourself and post pics about your new 10mm Witness.  What are we to make of that?  As far as we know, you don't even really exist.  

But in case you do actually exist, go out and shoot your new 10mm Pistol and enjoy it!  The only precaution for hot/real 10mm ammunition I would take is to install a Sprinco Recoil Reducer and use the original Spring or a Factory Rated Spring that could be fitted.  Sometimes it's necessary to clip a Coil or two off of the Recoil Spring when using a Sprinco Unit, so that the Slide will travel back to Slide Lock.  I use a Sprinco Unit for my .45 Super Witness Conversion.    http://www.sprinco.com/

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself........  Winston Churchill