CZ97B vs EAA Witness .45

[marklbucla]

What differences are there between the EAA Witness .45 and the CZ97B?

[Radom]

They use the same magazines, but the grip panels are not compatible.  The Witness has a slightly different grip frame, and the trigger reach is a bit shorter.  The 97B is a just a tad bigger all over, while the Witness is the same as other large frame Witness pistols.  

The 97B has both full-length rails and frame, while the Witness is more like a 75B/85B.  This is why the 97B is a little bigger and heavier.  

According to all accounts, the Witness is not as accurate.  However, it is still very good for a stock pistol.  The 97B is very "tight" in terms of slide to frame fit (even for a CZ), while the tolerances on the Witness are merely above average.  The 97B has a bushing, while the Witness does not.  Effectively, there is no play between the 97B's barrel and slide.  

The .45 Witness is a great pistol.  The CZ 97B is an OUTSTANDING pistol.  Both deliver phenomenal value for their retail price.

[Lazarus]

I'd like to know a little more about why there are clones of the CZ at all.  Are they licensed or just unashamed copies?  The CZ itself takes it cues from the Browning Hi-Power, as do many other guns, but what's the deal with Witness, EAA, Tangfolglio and CZ?
-Lazarus

[CZ75ID]

For a long time..CZs were only in Com-Bloc countries.
people wanted them, but could not buy them. Tangfoglio
and others make CZ copies. Until CZs were imported to the
states. The TZ and others were the only way to get a '75
design.

I'll add that the fit and finish on my 97B-SA is very much
excelent. However, the fit and finish on my 10mm Witness
is much better than what i found with the 75B.

For me. The 97B screams Target Pistol. I guess that is what
i think of when target pistols come to mind. Fantastic fit
and glossy or deep blueing. A 97B shoots as good as it looks
or feels.I think it is very much worth the extra money.

[skucera]

Also, Italy was almost unique in having no Patent law whatsoever.  For a long time, the only protection of intellectual property there was as trade secrets, and by making things that nobody else _could_ make.  I'm not sure if Italy signed onto the Stockholm Convention for copyright protection, but up through the 1960's there was absolutely no patent protection there, and legal copying of anything that you wanted to make.  As long as you could make it at all, you could sell it legally in Italy.  They could sell CZ clones in the US because the communists never filed for patent applications with the US Patent Office either.

Scott

[VonFatman]

I actually saw my first Witness .45 this week in a local gunshop.  It had the olive Parkerized finish...three "attachment holes" on the left side of the frame/rail.
The gun seemed a bit smaller, narrower maybe.  The trigger had been worked and frlt like it had!  Nice trigger.  Price $540!!!  Ahhhh!  with 3 ten round mags.

I don't think so Maynard!

If the price ahd been $350.00...I'd have bought it.
VF

[mainmech48]

I had one of the very early Witness .45s. I loved the ergos, but the workmanship was just so-so. I never could get 100% reliability from it, and accuracy was mediocre with most loads. Lots of vertical stringing, and it suffered from "1st round out" syndrome more than any other semi-auto that I'd had up until then. 3-4" high and right consistently.

I traded it on something else. Can't recall just what, though. I didn't think that I'd buy another Witness until I ran across a like-new 9x19 for $200.

That turned out to be a whole different story, with total reliability and superb accuracy with the right ammo.

I bought my 97B about a year and a half ago. The Witness 9 had taught me to appreciate the brilliance of the ergos and basic design, and the magazine reviews were encouraging. I really wanted that "package" in a .45 ACP, so I took the plunge again.

IMO, it's the best value dollar-for-dollar that I've ever had in a .45. It shoots as well as a custom 1911 that I have more than 3X the money in, fits my largish hand perfectly, and has proven to be 100% reliable with  anything but "soft ball" target reloads. They just don't generate enough recoil impulse to cycle it all the time.

Newer Witness .45s may well be a different story, and around here they can be had for considerably less money. But I'd still pay the extra $100 for the best. It'd likely take more than that to get it shooting in the same league with the 97.

[jwc007]

As a long term owner of a .45 Witness, that was purchased new, in or around 93, I have no complaints about the pistol and it is my favorite .45, of the 3 .45 pistols I currently own.  In fact I am thinking about selling off one of the others to buy another .45 Witness. (Anyone out there need an S&W 4506?)

Out of the box it has been stone cold reliable, feeding even those little Remington 185 grn SWC's that give so many other pistols fits!  It has been shot a lot over the years in many IPSC matches.  The only parts it has needed are the ones that typically wear out in the CZ design. (Safety, Recoil Springs, Slide Stop Pin, Slide Stop Spring)  Considering the use I have put it through, it has held up very well.  Accuracy is about the same as when I bought it.  Puts everything into 2 inches at 25 yards from a machine rest.

The only things the CZ97B has over the Witness from my perspective, is a nicer finish with more attention to detail and better customer service.

[VonFatman]

jwc007,
Good reply.  I have also found several guns which do not find homes in every safe to be dead on reliable...Daewoo DP-51, CZ-83, CZ-50 etc....
I really liked the green park. finish on the Witness I saw in the shop the other day...I was suprised to see the three "attachement holes" drilled into the side of the frame.
Oh, and no, I don't like S&W semis...I like used S&W revolvers...and of course, I have this memory which will never allow me to buy a new S&W...once bitten...
VF

[Walt-Sherrill]

Like VonFatman, I also have a DP-51.  Great little gun.  I keep thinking I ought to get it a trigger job, though.  (Not bad, but not as good as some of my other guns.)

I have a Witness Sport Long Slide in .45.  This is one of the top-of-the-line Witness guns (excluding anything they do for IPSC race guns.)   Longer frame and slide.  Much higher level of fit and finish.   I'd stack it up against a CZ-97B any day; I think its every bit as accurate.  And maybe a bit more ergonomic. But it costs about $100 more, new... and isn't as heavy as the 97B (and that can be considered both positive and negative.)   Very accurate. Very reliable.

(Mine had a crappy trigger when I first got it, and it's taken a while to get it right.  Most 97Bs are much better in that regard, out of the box.)

Which would I buy if I were buying new?  Probably the 97B, but it would be a hard choice if the prices were the same.

[sjbrook]

This may seem like a silly question but...how do you tell when things like <Safety, Recoil Springs, Slide Stop Pin, Slide Stop Spring> are wearing out?  After how many rounds do you typically see these items go in a steel frame CZ or Witness?

[jwc007]

The Safety on my Witness .45 was replaced when it would engage during slide cycling, making it a one shot wonder.  The spring under the Safety ball detent had worn out.  I had done a lot of "Cocked and Locked" drills and that may have contributed to the wear.  When replacing the safety I decided to upgrade to an Ambi-Safety, at that time.

The slide stop also started engaging well before the Magazine was empty.  It did not do this all the time, but it was occurring too regularly.  Replacing the Slide Stop Pin cut down the frequency of that occurrence, but did not cure it completely.  Replacing the Slide Stop Retention Spring did.

At the time of these repairs, which really were minor, the pistol had seen 8 years of use.  Since I do some Gun Repair, I merely fixed it myself, rather than send it to EAA.  It's bad enough just ordering parts from them! (They did not send me the right parts, the first two times.)

[Walt-Sherrill]

An update:  

Since writing the response above, I've purhcased a 97B.  Great gun, but too bleeped big for my hand.  I traded it to Eric who sold it to a forum member.  (Must've been too big for his hand, too.  <grin>)

Fine gun, and very accurate.  Nice enough trigger out of the box.  (It took a long time to get my Witness trigger right, but it is now RIGHT!)

So, faced with the decision again, I'd go with the Witness.  But if you're hand is built differently than mine, the 97B might be a better choice.   (My hand isn't small, by the way.)

[airrascal]

Would you like an orange orange or a tangerine tangerine.  One's juice you generally drink straight, the other's you generally find in a mimosa.  They're both sweet and might satisfy ones thrist.  Ultimately, which one suits you better?  Neither will lead you astray, barring any freak examples being deployed.  I have a 97 and a Witness Compact.  They both admirably complete those tasks assigned to them.  I don't think you'ld go wrong with either one so get the one that fits.  

P.S. - I'M NOT NUTS.  NO REALLY!  

CZ: 85, 75 Compact, PCR, 83 (2), 97
Witness Compact .45
Sphinx AT2000PSDA
H&K: P2000, P7M8, P7PSP (2)
SIG: P225, P229
Walther: P38, P99
Kahr: PM9, K9, T9
Ruger: SP101, GP100
Para C7.45
No Wife or Kids and the Critter's not going to college.

[MadOgre]

Is that they have one in a compact size.
I have a thing for full caliber compacts.   I can't help it.  An all steel .45 Compact Witness would make a fine carry gun with a little bit of work on the trigger and action.

As much as I love the 97 (With the older bushing style) I really wish they made one smaller.