Modification on 97B's Safety

[Hermo Gut]

   I've noticed on my Jericho that I can rack the slide even if the safety is on while on my 97B it's not possible. In case of an accidental discharge in a cocked & locked mode (don't know if there's a case..) it will surely destroy the internals not to mention the frame of my CZ. Both has the firing pin block. I'm now contemplating on modifying my safety , the process is not that hard , just a little filing on the safety's inside protrudement. Any comments ?

[Jeff Bergquist]

With all the safeties (manual safety, inertial firing pin, firing pin block) and proper gun handling the chance of an AD occuring with the safety on is very nearly zero. It might not be completely impossible but is hard to visualize how it could happen. If you intend to try this I'd make sure you test the safety very thoroughly before ever loading the gun.

Jeff

[CZ75BSA]

Quote: In case of an accidental discharge in a cocked & locked mode (don't know if there's a case..) it will surely destroy the internals not to mention the frame of my CZ.

1. It couldn't happen.
2.  The gun would just fire the projectile without cycling the action.  Nothing would be damaged (but it can't happen anyway.)

Quote: I'm now contemplating on modifying my safety , ...Any comments ?

You obviously don't know anything about firearms design or function.  DON'T MESS WITH IT !

Or just consider me a know-it-all bleeper and do whatever you want.  

[Hermo Gut]

Jeff - thanks for the advise. There's really a very minute possibility that this could happen , I for one have not heard or seen it happen on a CZ.

CZ75BSA says ;

   1. "It couldn't happen".

        I agree , though how small a possibility it's still a possibility.

    2. "The gun would just fire the projectile without cycling the action. Nothing would be damaged".

        WRONG !!!!!  I may not know nothing about firearms but "COMMON SENSE" will dictate that there will be a corresponding recoil because of energy transfer. Since the slide cannot move because of  the safety mechanism , a significant amount of force will be forcing the slide back creating  torsion & moment on the safety lever pin.The pin will be forced to move creating shear force on the frame. The resultant force will surely damage either the safety mechanism or worst the frame or frame hole.
       Bottom line , don't mess with the safety. Thanks for the advise.  

      By the way , how come Jericho has it ?

[Walt-Sherrill]

Its not possible to have an accidental/negligent discharge in a CZ-type (with firing pin block) UNLESS you pull the trigger.

An engaged safety keeps you from pulling the trigger.

If the slide is open, the gun CAN'T be fired -- due to the fact that the firing pin block is activated and can't be deactivated unless the slide is fully in battery.  (Examine the firing pin safety plunger...)

The only way the gun will fire accidentally, is if the firing pin safety is broken and the hammer gets a strong blow.  And a round is in front of the firing pin, on the breech face.

A blow hard enough to slam the firing pin forward will also probably cause the gun to go into battery...

Changing the safety won't do a thing to prevent that sort of discharge.  

I agree with the earlier comment: don't screw with the safety.

[CZ75BSA]

Quote:WRONG !!!!! I may not know nothing about firearms but "COMMON SENSE" will dictate that there will be a corresponding recoil because of energy transfer.

Maybe I am wrong.  I don't think we should try to find out.

Sorry if I seemed top come across as too harsh in the previous post.  It was the Caffeine !  
Welcome to the 97B Club !

[rbernie]

Quote:WRONG !!!!! I may not know nothing about firearms but "COMMON SENSE" will dictate that there will be a corresponding recoil because of energy transfer. Since the slide cannot move because of the safety mechanism , a significant amount of force will be forcing the slide back creating torsion & moment on the safety lever pin.The pin will be forced to move creating shear force on the frame. The resultant force will surely damage either the safety mechanism or worst the frame or frame hole.

This presumes that, at the moment of the theoretical slam-fire, the receiver were held immovable such that the slide pin and frame would be solely forced to absorb the energy. However, if the weapon was not immovable but was free to rotate (as would happen, for example, if the weapon were dropped onto the hammer) during the theoretical slam-fire, simple physics would have the firearm rotating around its longitudinal axis (spinning) long before the slide stop/frame would be subjected to harmful stresses.

Given your stated scenario, I believe that the worst thing that would happen to your CZ is that it would look like hell after being banged around on the ground (both from the initial drop and from the theoretical slam-fire).

[Walt-Sherrill]

At the risk of repeating myself...

How do you have a SLAM FIRE on a CZ-97B unless 1) the firing pin block has been removed, or 2) the firing pin itself is broken and jammed in the breech face?

The gun has an inertial firing pin, and just having the slide slam forward is NOT sufficient to make the firing pin jump the gap and hit a primer.  (Believe me, if that were the case, every time you fired the gun, your gun would go full auto!)

The gun also has a firing pin block.  Every time the slide moves to the rear, the firing pin block plunger drops and re-engages the firing pin block.  The firing pin block can be deactivated only by pulling the trigger.  If you pull the trigger BEFORE the gun is in battery, it won't deactivate the firing pin block, and the gun can't fire.  If it then goes into battery with the trigger pulled to the rear, it won't fire, either.

Some else said it, but I'll say it too -- it isn't possible -- unless you have several catestrophic failures at the SAME TIME.  And if you have those problems the "safety modification" is going to do ANYTHING to prevent the problem...

You guys either don't understand how the gun you're talking about works -- or you've learned something I simply don't understand.  (It won't be the first time someone here knew something I didn't understand...)

[rbernie]

I don't disagree with you, Walt. I just figured that it was easier to deal with the stated concern (potential damage to the firearm) directly rather than proving how it couldn't happen. That tack had already been taken, to no apparent good end. ;-)

[Walt-Sherrill]

My point was, simply, that the SUGGESTED FIX didn't fix anything.

If your gun is sufficiently screwed up to have a slam fire, there's NOTHING the safety can do to prevent it...  Messing with the safety does NOTHING to prevent slam fires.  It only prevents pulling the trigger.   (You can, in effect, have a slam fire, with the slide closed...)

[Hermo Gut]

   Actually the idea of modifying the safety came as I was trying to "rationalize" the reason behind Jericho's safety construction. Why is it that Jericho's firearm expert (maybe in Israel) made it this way (that is, at safety on position the slide can be moved or racked)? In the US, the counterpart I think is the Baby Eagle but the safety on this firearm is on the slide and not on the frame. I know that I should not be comparing firearms of different names for they have of course their own identity but for learning's sake I guess. I like my 97B that's why I would like to explore more on its weaknesses rather than its strong points. I consider 97B's safety features sufficient enough but I find Jericho's construction better (just me). At safety on position when you squeeze Jericho's trigger nothing moves but on my 97B, I repeat "on my 97B" the safety pin & hammer move a little bit as a unit. Probably the safety pin hole on my 97B is a little off spec..I don't know whether this holds true for others. Maybe the best way for me is to ask Israel Military Industries CS why they made their safety this way but I'm sure I'll get better & non biased answer/s in this forum. Regards !!!

[Walt-Sherrill]

Tanfoglio made that gun's frame.  You might get a better answer from them.  Ditto Magnum Research-sold guns.

Almost all CZ clones are are made by Tanfoglio -- with a few exceptions for guns like Sphinx, which are made in Switzerland -- and then assembled by another company.  

ALL Tanfoglio (Witnesses, too) safeties work differently than do CZs.  When they're frame mounted, they all work pretty much as you describe.

As I noted earlier -- and you seem to ignore -- the safety has NOTHING to do with preventing "slam fires," which was, I thought, the safety issue you were most concerned about.

[Hermo Gut]

Walt - I fully understood your point and I agree that the safety or exterior safety lever mechanism (except for the firing pin block mechanism) has nothing to do in preventing a slam fire. BTW , there's really no need for a modification. The CZ97B is a very safe firearm as it is. Happy safe shooting.

[Lazarus]

I'm still not getting the point of this thread.  So, you have a gun that will let you rack the slide if the gun is cocked and locked?  And somehow you think this is a "feature"  In my opinion, that firearm's design is faulty and your CZ is correct.  What about the need to keep the slide from moving during holstering of the weapon?  1911's also work this way; they have a notch cut in the slide specifically to keep the slide from moving when the safety is on.  I'd be interested in Jericho's response to questions on this matter.
-Lazarus

[Hermo Gut]

    It was unanimously advised in this forum not to modify my 97B's safety and I think that clearly answered my querry. Initially , I thought that Jericho had the advantage in their safety mechanism (that is ,the slide being able to be racked even if the exterior safety lever is on )  but it turned out that it doesn't prove a thing as per responses I got here. I'll be also interested in Jericho's response.