Homeland Security buys 450 million rounds of hollowpoint HST for domestic use

[Czeetah]

Interesting. That's a ton of ammo for use by a domestic agency, given it's not target ammo.

http://rt.com/usa/news/dhs-million-point-government-179/

[Grendel]

Not really, given that they are the purchasing agents for ICE, BP, FLETC, and several other Federal Agencies. I would venture to suggest some larger State Agencies like LASD, CHP, and the like buy somewhat large amounts of ammo as well.

You should also note that according to a quick google search which includes less 'tinfoil hat' sites, the contract is for an unspecified length and time duration, but according to DHS is for 5 years http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2012/apr/30/chain-email/chain-email-says-homeland-security-purchasing-many/

FLETC on its own fired 11 million rounds in a 12 month period.

[Czeetah]

Seems like a waste of tax dollars. Why can't they fire FMJ at the range, with maybe an allowance to fire a couple mags of HP per month for weapon check.

[JimThornTX]

Seems like a waste of tax dollars.

It's the government. Of course it's a waste of taxpayers dollars. But it's not THEIR money, it's OUR money, therefore they have no incentive to not waste it. 

[jameslovesjammie]

Seems like a waste of tax dollars. Why can't they fire FMJ at the range, with maybe an allowance to fire a couple mags of HP per month for weapon check.

Because they want to ensure their guns shoot to point of aim, and they also don't want officers leaving the range with a magazine full of FMJ's to encounter a bad guy with.

[czechyoself]

I would think that hollowpoints are cheaper to train with. Less material = lower cost per bullet. At least, I think that's why the BVAC reloads at Cheaper Than Dirt are so affordable in bulk.

[jwc007]

I would think that hollowpoints are cheaper to train with. Less material = lower cost per bullet.

Same amount of Material between like weighted JHP, FMJ, and Plated Bullets, so there is no material cost savings.  i.e. a 9mm 124 grain JHP has the same amount of material as a 9mm 124 grain FMJ, by weight.

JHP's typically cost more than like weighted FMJ or Plated Bullets as their Manufacturing Process costs more.  Also, the JHP is considered by Ammunition Manufacturers to be a "Premium" Bullet design, hence the "Premium" price.

Also, Law Enforcement Agencies typically have lower cost Ammunition of similar Bullet weight and velocity for practice, but Officers must qualify with Duty/Carry Ammunition.  That's the way it is for Law Enforcement Agencies local here.  The practice of Federal Agencies, such as the TSA, varies with allowable budget practices.

[jameslovesjammie]

Also, Law Enforcement Agencies typically have lower cost Ammunition of similar Bullet weight and velocity for practice, but Officers must qualify with Duty/Carry Ammunition.  That's the way it is for Law Enforcement Agencies local here.  The practice of Federal Agencies, such as the TSA, varies with allowable budget practices.

I have a relative who is a Port Director for DHS.  I have been to their range.  I will say right now that if most gun owners knew how little most Federal agents practice...they would be drastically disappointed.  They would also be disappointed at how low the standards are for acceptable accuracy.

[tekarra]

james,
I believe you are absoutely correct about lack of practice and low acceptance standards.

[armoredman]

I went to Dept range for 10 years...standards are low. I wore armor to annual range after the first time - some of them couldn't shoot straight at all! Safest place was to be downrange.

[Skookum]

The statistic that the average police officer hits his target, in a running gun fight, only one time out of every six shots seems to be confirmed by the observation of several here?

[Spirit 1]

The statistic that the average police officer hits his target, in a running gun fight, only one time out of every six shots seems to be confirmed by the observation of several here?

Hmmm... I'd say even that is being very generous!

I'm continually amazed, for years & years, where police fire maybe 50-60 rounds and perp catches maybe 3 or 4? That's mostly 'City Police' from what I've seen, which can translate directly into limited funds available. From there it devolves to officers only running out for some paper punching according to minimum requirements.

I'd like to see paper shooting completely done away with for LEO's with no exceptions. It's similar to a Master Mechanic having to practice tire changing proficiency once every 3 months: WHY? when they are NEVER going to change a tire on the job for the rest of their lives?

All LEO 'Qualifying' should only be under dynamic conditions, like from barricades, running a gauntlet, return live-fire simulation etc. Whatever 'practice' they can come up with that more closely resembles real world conditions will drive in new and more appropriate shooting skills. Oughta be a law 

[Grendel]

The statistic that the average police officer hits his target, in a running gun fight, only one time out of every six shots seems to be confirmed by the observation of several here?

Hmmm... I'd say even that is being very generous!

I'm continually amazed, for years & years, where police fire maybe 50-60 rounds and perp catches maybe 3 or 4? That's mostly 'City Police' from what I've seen, which can translate directly into limited funds available. From there it devolves to officers only running out for some paper punching according to minimum requirements.

I'd like to see paper shooting completely done away with for LEO's with no exceptions. It's similar to a Master Mechanic having to practice tire changing proficiency once every 3 months: WHY? when they are NEVER going to change a tire on the job for the rest of their lives?

All LEO 'Qualifying' should only be under dynamic conditions, like from barricades, running a gauntlet, return live-fire simulation etc. Whatever 'practice' they can come up with that more closely resembles real world conditions will drive in new and more appropriate shooting skills. Oughta be a law 

In a perfect world with unlimited time and funding. Unfortunately people (Police authorities and the citizens who pay the taxes to support the authority) are not interested in paying the vast amount of money needed to:

a) Set up such a qualification test

b) Hire and train people suitable to administer such a testing regimen

3) Hire and train officers who are able to benefit from such a training regimen

4) Pay the infrastructure and ammunition costs needed to run such a training scheme on a regualr basis

5) pay the vast overtime bills to cover the officers running the training and covering those undergoing the training.


They are not interested in how many officers are at some super tactical training course because voters can't see them, but only how many they have on the streets writing tickets and patrolling.

Before anyone tells me cutbacks on training are a false economy, since one shooting will cost a municipality millions, that is what liability insurance is for, and the premium is cheaper than the training cost.

[armoredman]

He's right...I tried for years to improve training, but was told the same thing. Fortunately nobody working for me ever let a round go into a civilian, AND, I have been told recently SOMEONE grabbed a clue, and firearms training will become far more realistic very soon. I have already had one worried former co worker seek me out for additional range time to try to catch up...

[motosapiens]

Seems like a waste of tax dollars.

It's the government. Of course it's a waste of taxpayers dollars. But it's not THEIR money, it's OUR money, therefore they have no incentive to not waste it. 

Our agency pays alot less for jhp's than you and I do, even on closeout at cheaper than dirt. There is a very slight savings for using fmj's, but in the grand scheme of how much it costs to train and equip an LEO, it's not really significant outside of situations like the academies where they are going through  LOT of ammo.