Author Topic: 922r VZ58 Parts Question  (Read 7895 times)

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Offline LostCyborg

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922r VZ58 Parts Question
« on: July 28, 2013, 11:32:03 AM »
Hello Everyone,

This is probably going to sound like a really stupid question, but the only stupid question is the one not asked right?

I have a VZ58 from Czechpoint-usa. It is a CA legal model, not that I think that makes a difference.

At any rate, I no longer live in CA, so I can legally add a mag release in the state I now live in to de-neuter my VZ58.

I ended up ordering the Ambi-mag release from Zahal online. I also went ahead and ordered the Tactical bolt release. I didn't really even consider where the parts where manufactured or shipping from prior to ordering, but now that I have, I've run into some shipping issues due to the fact that they are shipping directly from CZ apparently. They're working on tracking it down or getting the parts reshipped and have been very helpful. Here are the parts I ordered:

http://www.zahal.org/products/vz-58-cz858-ambidextrous-magazine-catch?path_parent=218295
http://www.zahal.org/products/vz-58-cz858-tactical-bolt-release

Now that I've had time to stop and think about it.... better late than never right? Is it even legal to install these parts on my rifle, let alone own them? If not, what can I replace on the rifle to stay in compliance with the law. I know certain parts on the Czechpoint D-Technic rifles are U.S. made to make them U.S. legal / compliant like the trigger and a few other parts (I forget the complete list).

Anyways, sorry if this sounds like an idiotic question, I just want to make sure I don't break any laws by stupidly installing the parts if and when they ever do arrive.

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 11:55:36 AM »
The law is quite clear on which parts are regulated and which parts aren't.

There is no "just any part" clause in the law.

Quote
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

Paragraph (C) defines the following parts as "countable" under the law:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

This is probably stickied here somewhere, and is stickied at most any gun forum that involves imported long guns.

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Offline LostCyborg

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 02:32:34 PM »
Thanks,

I wanted to make sure I understood the law correctly. I guess to clarify this was where I'm fuzzy or want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. Better safe than sorry.

As long as your semiauto rifle does not have more than 10 of the parts specified in the list manufactured outside the U.S. you are good to go.

Correct me if I am mistaken. But my understanding after re-reading the law again is that any part on an imported semi auto rifle not on the 20 item list even if it is manufactured outside the U.S.A. does not count towards the 10 item limit. So in my case, the magazine catch and tactical bolt release items are fine to add onto the rifle since those items are not on the list of restricted parts in 922r.

I found the listed items in the Czechpoint-USA site that are USA made in my rifle:

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/rifles/762-x-39-mm/sa-vz-58-calif-military/

Quote
This means that all vz. 58 rifles capable of using double stack magazines possess 5 USA made parts to fully comply with Title 18, U.S.C., Section 922(r). All D-Technic manufactured rifles are imported (and sold) without flash hiders and bayonet lugs due to current US importation laws. The five USA made parts on the vz. 58 California Military are: sear, disconnector (both made from metal ? 4140 steel), trigger, magazine follower, and magazine floor plate (all made from polymer ? Leona 90 G 60 and Zytel ST 801).

So going down the VZ58 parts list (and comparing it to 922r):

1:  O0 Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Made in CZ, Item #1)

2:  O0 Barrels (Made in CZ, Item #2)

3: Barrel extensions (NA to VZ58)

4: Mounting blocks (trunions) (NA to VZ58)

5:  O0 Muzzle attachments (Made in CZ, Item #3)

6:  O0 Bolts (Made in CZ, Item #4)

7: Bolt carriers (NA to VZ58)

8: Operating rods (NA to VZ58)

9:  O0 Gas pistons (Made in CZ, Item #5)

10:  O0 Trigger housings (Made in CZ, Item #6, assuming this applies to the trigger guard.)

11:  :D Triggers (Made in USA)

12:  :o Hammers (NA to VZ58 since striker fired, or does a striker count as a hammer under 922r?, assuming no it does not).

13:  :D Sears (Made in USA)

14:  :D Disconnectors (Made in USA)

15:  O0 Butt stocks (Made in CZ, Item #7)

16:  O0 Pistol grips (Made in CZ, Item #8)

17:  O0 Forearms, hand guards (Made in CZ, Item #9)

18:  O0 Magazine bodies (Made in CZ, Item #10)

19:  :D Followers (Made in USA)

20:  :D Floorplates (Made in USA)

Assuming the above list is correct, if I replace the butt stock, pistol grip and forearms with Made in the USA parts, I could legally use 100% Czech surplus magazines in my rifle.

Sorry guys, I'm sure this has been beaten to death here. I know I'll probably get flamed for not using the search function, but honestly hadn't really thought about it until I recently decided to start the project of "tricking" this rifle out...  ;)

I had to get this out of my head and write it down if anything else so I could clear the fog and stop thinking about it! Also, I'm not a gunsmith and my firearm knowledge is limited to pistols and AR's for the most part so forgive me if I've misunderstood some of the nomenclature. Please correct me if I've mislabeled any of the parts above.

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »
It's simple math.

If you remove a US part from a minimum-parts-count-equipped gun, you must replace it with another US part somewhere else.

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Offline LostCyborg

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922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 04:05:03 PM »
That would make it simple math, but I specified exactly what I'm doing and that is not it. I'm talking about adding a non-US made part. At least the tactical bolt release. That does not replace another part. It is adding another part. I believe I already answered my own question but was simply asking whether my understanding of the law was correct.

I listed the 922r restricted item list more or less to confirm the 10 parts that are foreign made specific to the D-Technic Czechpoint-USA imported VZ58 specifically. I figured a lot of people here with these rifles would be in the know.

I know Dan from Czechpoint USA frequents the forum so I may just ask him directly to confirm.

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 04:29:05 PM »
That would make it simple math, but I specified exactly what I'm doing and that is not it. I'm talking about adding a non-US made part. At least the tactical bolt release. That does not replace another part. It is adding another part. I believe I already answered my own question but was simply asking whether my understanding of the law was correct.
It is simple.

Your "tactical bolt release" is not a countable part, so I"m ignoring it in my answers.  The official government list is what I quoted in my initial response.  Do you see "bolt release" on it, anywhere?

I listed the 922r restricted item list more or less to confirm the 10 parts that are foreign made specific to the D-Technic Czechpoint-USA imported VZ58 specifically. I figured a lot of people here with these rifles would be in the know.

I know Dan from Czechpoint USA frequents the forum so I may just ask him directly to confirm.
Ask whoever you like, the United States Code with the above list, and all the other 922r stuff is available online for you to read for yourself (nobody you ask is going to be able to change the law).

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Offline vblue42

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 05:18:48 PM »
The original parts that you are replacing are all Czech surplus so it is not a problem regardless of where they are manufactured. And you are replacing them, not adding them. The original parts are removed and "replaced" with the new parts.

Offline RevolverOcelot

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 10:13:19 PM »
Like vblue42 said above, you are perfectly fine replacing those parts.

It honestly wasn't that hard to answer your question, nor was it an idiotic question to begin with.

Offline LostCyborg

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »
Thank you all for the replies... (even the abrasive ones). I got my original question answered.  ;D

Is the following list of 922r applicable parts for the VZ58 correct as it ships from Czechpoint-USA?

I'll break this list down to simplify.

Czech made parts (x10):
1: Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Made in CZ, Item #1)
2: Barrels (Made in CZ, Item #2)
6: Bolts (Made in CZ, Item #3)
7: Bolt carriers (Made in CZ, Item #4)
9: Gas pistons (Made in CZ, Item #5)
10: Trigger housings (Made in CZ, Item #6, assuming this applies to the trigger guard.)
15: Butt stocks (Made in CZ, Item #7)
16: Pistol grips (Made in CZ, Item #8)
17: Forearms, hand guards (Made in CZ, Item #9)
18: Magazine bodies (Made in CZ, Item #10)

U.S.A. made parts (x5):
11: Triggers (Made in USA)
13: Sears (Made in USA)
14: Disconnectors (Made in USA)
19: Followers (Made in USA)
20: Floorplates (Made in USA)

Total 922r parts applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58 = 15 (10 Czech made parts, 5 U.S.A. made parts)

The following 5 parts on the 922r list are NOT applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58:
3: Barrel extensions (NA to VZ58 since the brake / extension is welded to the barrel making it part of the barrel.)
4: Mounting blocks (trunions) (NA to VZ58, since the barrel is pressed directly into the receiver.)
5: Muzzle attachments (NA to VZ58 since the brake / extension is welded to the barrel making it part of the barrel. I'm still a little unclear what the difference between a barrel extension and a muzzle attachment is, but assuming they are both addressed similarly.)
8: Operating rods (NA to VZ58)
12:Hammers (NA to VZ58 since striker fired, or does a striker count as a hammer under 922r?, assuming no it does not, if my above list of Czech made parts on the rifle are correct or it would be over 10 foreign made parts.)

Please correct me if the above parts list is wrong. Thanks in advance!

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 11:52:22 AM »
The following 5 parts on the 922r list are NOT applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58:
3: Barrel extensions (NA to VZ58 since the brake / extension is welded to the barrel making it part of the barrel.)

You are confusing "length law" with "922r".  The 922r law does not care whether the part is permanently attached or not.

5: Muzzle attachments (NA to VZ58 since the brake / extension is welded to the barrel making it part of the barrel. I'm still a little unclear what the difference between a barrel extension and a muzzle attachment is, but assuming they are both addressed similarly.)

"Muzzle attachments" generally have a function (flash hider / muzzle brake), while a barrel extension just extends the barrel.

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Offline LostCyborg

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 04:36:55 PM »
I'm actually not confusing "length law". I read somewhere else (I believe it was an AK forum somewhere), that the ATF has reviewed this issue and stated that legally, once an item is welded to the barrel to permanently attach it, they consider it as part of the barrel and no longer as a separate part.

This may not be true, but I'm not confusing it with length law. If that is not true, I would have to consider the barrel and muzzle attachment / extension (whichever you would define it as) that is welded onto the end of my VZ58 barrel and count it as part of the 922r list. Which based on the break down I provided would put me at 11.

That brings me back to the question still as far as what parts are the 10 or less foreign parts on my VZ58 that make it legal? It is simple math if you know what your counting. Otherwise I might as well submit it to Diane Feinstein for review.

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 04:54:16 PM »
I'm actually not confusing "length law". I read somewhere else (I believe it was an AK forum somewhere), that the ATF has reviewed this issue and stated that legally, once an item is welded to the barrel to permanently attach it, they consider it as part of the barrel and no longer as a separate part.

This may not be true, but I'm not confusing it with length law. If that is not true, I would have to consider the barrel and muzzle attachment / extension (whichever you would define it as) that is welded onto the end of my VZ58 barrel and count it as part of the 922r list. Which based on the break down I provided would put me at 11.
I suggest you read the actual US Code before you make any decisions.

The ATF has gotten caught perjuring themselves to make a conviction, and their opinions are known to change 180? regularly.  Please note the word "opinion" in the previous sentence.

That brings me back to the question still as far as what parts are the 10 or less foreign parts on my VZ58 that make it legal? It is simple math if you know what your counting. Otherwise I might as well submit it to Diane Feinstein for review.
For the purposes of the factory Vz58, apparently the import committees and revenuers are not counting the welded muzzle cap as a "muzzle device".

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Offline osageorange

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 11:16:18 PM »


Czech made parts (x10):
1: Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Made in CZ, Item #1)
2: Barrels (Made in CZ, Item #2)
6: Bolts (Made in CZ, Item #3)
7: Bolt carriers (Made in CZ, Item #4)
9: Gas pistons (Made in CZ, Item #5)
10: Trigger housings (Made in CZ, Item #6, assuming this applies to the trigger guard.)
15: Butt stocks (Made in CZ, Item #7)
16: Pistol grips (Made in CZ, Item #8)
17: Forearms, hand guards (Made in CZ, Item #9)
18: Magazine bodies (Made in CZ, Item #10)

U.S.A. made parts (x5):
11: Triggers (Made in USA)
13: Sears (Made in USA)
14: Disconnectors (Made in USA)
19: Followers (Made in USA)
20: Floorplates (Made in USA)

Total 922r parts applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58 = 15 (10 Czech made parts, 5 U.S.A. made parts)



LostCyborg,

First of all, your parts count is correct. Czechpoint replaced the metal trigger, followers
and floorplates with plastic ones. They also put in a US-made disconnector and sear.
You can change these parts or others on the lists for US ones. Sometimes trading
out six or more US parts gives you upgrade options, like switching grips quickly, to
suit your needs. You might need to put a Czech part back in some day if something
wears out or breaks, or maybe try a new part from Israel.

Here are some simple parts you can swap for 922r compliance:

http://bonesteelarms.com/VZ-58_c2.htm

The Galil Ultra Style grip is better than the stock grip and an easy upgrade.
The US-made gas piston just drops right in. These two parts will replace the plastic US
followers and floor plates you have , and allow you to use stock magazines. These are
cheap and fast upgrades, but the gas pistons are on backorder right now.

Now for the extras:

The Bonesteel fire control group is better than the one that came with the rifle. The FCG
comes pre-assembled and should be easy to install as well. But it has the same number
 of US parts that you already have and is just an upgrade. The railed hand guards are a
great  upgrade too, as they will allow for a red dot sight, forward grip and  mounts for a
light or laser. They will count as US parts. They will also dissipate heat faster than the
stock grips, which heat up quickly  with sustained firing. Some people like the stock
grips because they are thin and streamlined, and prefer to hold the front edge of the
mag when firing. Pulling the front of the mag back also ensures the bolt hold open
feature will work on marginal used  mags, which you should swap out for better
functioning mags later. These are now the best US handguards available, but they are
spendy. Also, these aftermarket parts are in high demand and are often backordered,
but I think you can put in pre-orders to reserve them for you. Just contact them and ask.

As for the addition of ambi mag release and bolt release, they do not matter in the parts
count, just like adding a flashlight or other gear. (I have an extended mag release and
wish that I also had an ambi bolt release.) Sometimes these parts need special fitting to
work, so be very patient when installing them and keep the old parts as a backup. If the
parts don?t work as advertised, contact the seller first before filing or modifying them.
They may offer to swap them for new parts instead. There are small variances in these
rifles and sometimes they need extra work to use aftermarket upgrades.

As for the whole muzzle attachment/barrel extension thing, it?s a bit confusing. The
Czech rifle you have has an original Czech chrome-lined barrel just under the 16? US
legal limit, so they welded a steel muzzle extension onto it to make it legal for US sales.
You can live with what you have or this part can be removed by a gunsmith to silver
solder a muzzle brake or compensator on instead, but it will be permanently attached,
so choose wisely. Some of these parts are for sale at Bonesteel and CNC Warrior,
among other places. If you do this, the rifle may handle better for follow-up shots and
let?s you add  one more US part. You will probably also have to ship the rifle to Inrange
or Bonesteel for this work, which is an additional expense. Some VZ58 parts kits were
assembled by Century as VZ2008 rifles with longer US barrels, which allow you to put
any muzzle device on that has the right  thread pattern. They are held in place with a
spring-powered pin on to the front sight, similar to the one on an AK47. The US barrels
are not chrome-lined like yours, but the slightly longer length allows for these muzzle
attachment options, as they were manufactured to be over 16? long. So the VZ2008
has two US parts a CzechPoint rifle doesn?t come with: a barrel and muzzle attachment.
See how the game is played?  I suggest the US-made Slovakian style muzzle brake,
which works very well, if you even decide to swap this part.

The two small parts you have chosen to add to your rifle will not noticeably add to the
overall weight and handling, but adding lots of other accessories can. Keep this in
mind as you look for upgrades. Besides having a milled receiver and great ergonomics
for accurate shooting, this rifle is lighter than an AK47, so it handles very well. The
regular  stock has great ergonomics as it is, and is much better than the folding stock,
but some folks change it to have an AR-style stock that collapses to fit different layers of
clothing  and body armor. Ironwood Designs makes high quality US wood stock sets
but they are expensive and you have to finish them yourself.

http://ironwooddesigns.com/VZ58_Czech.html

You can dump a ton of money into your rifle with upgrades, or just add the features
that you like best and save your cash for ammo and mags. New aftermarket parts are
constantly coming out for these popular rifles, so gather up the ones you need for now
and have fun. Save your old parts in case you change your mind or something breaks.
You can sell the extra parts on ebay or gunbroker too, but for less than what they cost
new.

I suggest just getting the cheap and fast upgrades of a US grip and piston, and then
buying some NEW surplus mags on gunbroker, a small pile of ammo, and go shooting.




Offline JAPartridge

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 07:55:35 AM »
OP,
Here is another option for your Czech rifle to allow you to add a US Muzzle device at will....

http://www.cncwarrior.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=25797
It is a US made, threaded barrel extension, thus solving the length problem, and allowing muzzle devices to be added.

Now to have this installed you can send it out to InRange, or a competent gunsmith; There are also numerous threads on this very board on how to do it yourself.  Please note, if you choose to do it yourself, you must understand that as soon as you remove the barrel extension, you have created a Short-barreled rifle, and if you leave it that way all NFA rules apply.  In the past the ATFE has been lenient on individuals removing the barrel extension and expediently replacing it with another device to bring it to the legal limit... this is something to keep in mind if you choose to do it yourself...  In other words, if you do it yourself, it is a couple hour project maximum, not a "I'll remove the extension now, and once my new extension comes in I'll put that on"  DO NOT remove the existing extension until you have the new extension in hand, as well as every tool you could need to replace it!  Remember you may have to chase the threads on the barrel to get the new extension on, so you better have the die, die holder, and cutting fluid on hand before you begin.
It's better to burn out than to fade away!

Offline nalioth

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Re: 922r VZ58 Parts Question
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 10:00:00 AM »
OP,
Here is another option for your Czech rifle to allow you to add a US Muzzle device at will....

http://www.cncwarrior.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=25797
It is a US made, threaded barrel extension, thus solving the length problem, and allowing muzzle devices to be added.

Now to have this installed you can send it out to InRange, or a competent gunsmith; There are also numerous threads on this very board on how to do it yourself.  Please note, if you choose to do it yourself, you must understand that as soon as you remove the barrel extension, you have created a Short-barreled rifle, and if you leave it that way all NFA rules apply.  In the past the ATFE has been lenient on individuals removing the barrel extension and expediently replacing it with another device to bring it to the legal limit... this is something to keep in mind if you choose to do it yourself...  In other words, if you do it yourself, it is a couple hour project maximum, not a "I'll remove the extension now, and once my new extension comes in I'll put that on"  DO NOT remove the existing extension until you have the new extension in hand, as well as every tool you could need to replace it!  Remember you may have to chase the threads on the barrel to get the new extension on, so you better have the die, die holder, and cutting fluid on hand before you begin.
This is where this guy helps you . .


"Intent" plays a large role in the government bringing charges against you.  If you just happen to have your muzzle extension off & your new replacement extension laying on the workbench next to the MAPP gas torch and high temperature silver solder when Johnny Revenuer walks in, it's obvious that you intended to abide by the law.  IOW, you are in "constructive possession" of a legal firearm.

This is why it's very important that you have all your parts before you put your rifle into a temporarily illegal state.

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