Author Topic: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....  (Read 115908 times)

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Offline Psyklops

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2014, 05:10:19 PM »
2 with bayonets left

Make that one.
I decided to try rolling the dice on another century VZ.  hopefully i wont get a lemon this time.  :)

Offline newcastleadam

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2014, 12:33:26 PM »
No bayos left.  347 left without however.

Offline 25knots

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2014, 11:20:57 PM »
picked mine up yesterday. first vz and incredibly impressed. the only thing that looked seriously worn was the sling. Everything else looks like it has never been issued, and the received looks really nicely done. couldn't be more pleased.

Offline machinegunnertim

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2014, 03:21:46 AM »
I bought 2 a few months back. Finally got to shoot them a couple of weeks ago and am very impressed. I worry that If I shoot a lot of the copper washed steel jacketed cheap stuff the barrel will wear out in no time.

I want to buy 2 of the chrome lined military barrels from Apex gun parts for future re-barreling but how difficult is that to do? Would I have to ship it off to some specialist to get it done?

Offline RSR

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2014, 06:10:25 AM »
Nitriding is a more durable coating than chrome.  Nitriding actually displaces a lot of the thinner chrome jobs done on domestically produced barrels.  If you fired it, you can't chrome it I believe.  Nitriding can be done on used barrels.

The jackets on bullets themselves are softer than the barrel steel.  Most barrel wear occurs at the throat (just past the chamber) and the muzzle due to the heat of propellant gases
Any barrel wear from the steel jackets is a distant second to propellant gases. 

You're ultimately comparing 4000*F exhaust gases to much lower friction heat generated by the barrel/bullet friction. 

Disassembly and nitriding a barrel would run ~$300 (hour disassembly, hour assembly, $100 nitride job).  Buying a new chromed or nitrided barrel would add at least $50 to that.

Considering that 7.62x39 is full caliber and lower velocity round, the primary cause of barrel wear is lower here than with 5.56 and most other common modern sporting rifle rounds...

I'm not messing with the barrels until I need to rebarrel.  I figure optimal accuracy out to ~7.5k rounds or so with double or more that before accuracy drops to the point of concern.  Chrome is about times 2 and nitriding is times 2.5+, both over just raw barrel steel.

Surplus barrels I've seen mostly have quite a bit of muzzle crown wear from cleaning regimens and just the thread protection nut used on them.  And they're SBR length so require a permanent extension or muzzle device.  Which causes rust and is PIA to clean.

Threads of interest:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=64910.20
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=64303.5
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65707.5
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=64742.10
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63073.10
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:57:54 AM by RSR »

Offline nickndfl

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2014, 10:48:15 AM »
It's almost cheaper to simply have an additional rifle as back up at these prices than worry about another barrel. 

Offline machinegunnertim

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2014, 04:32:14 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I'm fully aware of the Melonite, Nitride, or whatever you want to call it and have actually sourced an affordable place to treat guns for me. But I figured that If I can just re-barrel for cheap in the future I wouldn't worry about it.

The lower velocities is a point I hadn't considered. But, I've been going off the test done here - http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/  The bore was gone on the rifles that fired Wolf and Brown Bear before they reached 6,000 rounds. And those were hard chrome lined barrels! I really wonder how long it would have taken if the barrels were not lined or nitrided.  Even though 7.62x39 is slower it can't be so far behind that low velocities alone will avert the barrel wear.

Here is what I see happening, buy tons of Wolf (because it's the cheapest right now) shoot 5 to 8,000 rounds out of it and totally wear out the barrel. At that point the gun will need to re-barreled or sold for parts. Might work for very short range blasting. That's just my speculation though.

And as for the throat or gas port erosion, that can be averted or at least prolonged significantly by a treatment of Dyna-Bore coat.

Offline RSR

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2014, 07:00:09 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I'm fully aware of the Melonite, Nitride, or whatever you want to call it and have actually sourced an affordable place to treat guns for me. But I figured that If I can just re-barrel for cheap in the future I wouldn't worry about it.

The lower velocities is a point I hadn't considered. But, I've been going off the test done here - http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/  The bore was gone on the rifles that fired Wolf and Brown Bear before they reached 6,000 rounds. And those were hard chrome lined barrels! I really wonder how long it would have taken if the barrels were not lined or nitrided.  Even though 7.62x39 is slower it can't be so far behind that low velocities alone will avert the barrel wear.

Here is what I see happening, buy tons of Wolf (because it's the cheapest right now) shoot 5 to 8,000 rounds out of it and totally wear out the barrel. At that point the gun will need to re-barreled or sold for parts. Might work for very short range blasting. That's just my speculation though.

And as for the throat or gas port erosion, that can be averted or at least prolonged significantly by a treatment of Dyna-Bore coat.

Did you watch the video in that review?  They were rapid firing throughout, to the extent of battlefield/combat conditions.  On the 2nd Tula rifle, they set the handguards on fire and cooled it in a mud puddle... Not in the original link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6cwh4IxXSc

To say this is equivalent to how most American's shoot mag after mag would be a vast exaggeration...

Also of note -- 5.56 wears barrel throats faster than 7.62x39 due to its larger case capacity to neck diameter ratio. 
Without getting into all the science, rate of fire matters far more than bullet jackets (basically, fissures develop and heat causes small bits of molten metal at the throat to get pushed down the barrel with each bullet or follows the bullet as unburnt powder, etc, abrades the hot and softened -- more rapid fire=hotter and softer barrel=more molten barrel removed w/ each shot and deeper fissures which just further exacerbates).

The ability of barrel to absorb heat also matters more than bullet jackets (this goes to surface area of throat, overall metal quantity of barrel, etc -- how rapidly you can fire/how much damage each shot automatically penalizes the barrel). 

Good read: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2012/08/how-rifle-barrels-die

If you shoot like they do in the gun test, maybe you'll have 5k accurate barrel life...  You can kill a barrel in 1000 rounds I'm sure if you really wanted to...  No barrel coating/treatment would add significantly more like if you're purposely doing everything you can to kill your barrel and get it to those temps... 

Just ask the target guys/hunters shooting .22-243, .220 Swift, and .22-250 and other overbore -- shooting copper jackets, target guys are lucky to get 1k rounds out of those calibers' barrels whereas hunters are lucky to get 4k (minute of animal accuracy) no matter how slow they shoot. 

Ultimately, heat in its various forms is what kills barrels, not jackets.  A structurally weakened barrel due to overheat may wear faster with steel jackets than copper when overheated, but again, the heat is the primary cause of wear, not the jackets. 

Further, I'd say the standard post-range trip cleaning will do more to degrade your accuracy than will steel jacketed ammo... 

The 7.62x39 round was specifically designed for extremely long barrel life.  I'd think the VZ2008's barrel would be sufficient for a decade+ of most American's shooting patterns no matter what ammo you choose to shoot.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 07:08:48 AM by RSR »

Offline Airacuda

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2014, 08:26:19 AM »
Unless you are in some type of law enforcement or Gov sponsored program where they are paying for your ammo...I don't think your going to hurt your barrel. As RSR said the VZ round is easy on barrels.
  My friend has an AK from the 80's that we have abused with every bump fire device to come along since then and it now has a slide fire on it. Now let me tell you ammo was Cheap! A drum or 2 and 6 to 10 mags every time it came out. Thats the only reason we had an AK. About 35 years of abuse and he maybe cleans it every 10 years....it still shoots MOA with no key holing.
I have 2 VZ's 3k thru them since last year this time. They will out last me I'm sure... My Son or granddaughter can worry about the barrel.

Offline taceto

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #129 on: October 27, 2014, 05:28:38 PM »
Hi folks,

Just joined the forum as I bought two of the PSA VZ2008 rifles last night.  I've been a big fan of this design since I bought a few VZ58 kits for $99 each a few years ago. At this price it was a no brainer to get two right up front.  Looking forward to playing with them once I pick them up.  Where do you see how many of these rifles PSA has left in stock at any given time?

Anyway, glad to be here and looking forward to meeting the community!

Offline newcastleadam

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #130 on: October 27, 2014, 09:02:58 PM »
Where do you see how many of these rifles PSA has left in stock at any given time?

Just keep putting larger quantities in until it says "The requested quantity is not available".

Offline taceto

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #131 on: October 27, 2014, 09:14:13 PM »
Where do you see how many of these rifles PSA has left in stock at any given time?

Just keep putting larger quantities in until it says "The requested quantity is not available".
Well, that explains something....If someone checking how many are left in inventory by adding a high number of rifles to their cart, then don't clear their cart those rifles may not be available for a period of time...hence the instances where inventory goes from a couple of hundred to non available...maybe I'm wrong tho...

Offline GWL

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #132 on: October 27, 2014, 09:59:16 PM »
Where do you see how many of these rifles PSA has left in stock at any given time?

Just keep putting larger quantities in until it says "The requested quantity is not available".
Well, that explains something....If someone checking how many are left in inventory by adding a high number of rifles to their cart, then don't clear their cart those rifles may not be available for a period of time...hence the instances where inventory goes from a couple of hundred to non available...maybe I'm wrong tho...
Nope. Inventory is never deducted until the sale is confirmed. That is why you can have something in your cart and by the time you fill out the credit card info the sale is voided as "Out of Stock"

Offline 25knots

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #133 on: October 27, 2014, 10:39:14 PM »
Where do you see how many of these rifles PSA has left in stock at any given time?

Just keep putting larger quantities in until it says "The requested quantity is not available".
I really thought that was a joke.

Offline RSR

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Re: Palmetto State Armory CZ2008 sale....
« Reply #134 on: October 28, 2014, 12:30:44 AM »
Nope. Inventory is never deducted until the sale is confirmed. That is why you can have something in your cart and by the time you fill out the credit card info the sale is voided as "Out of Stock"

Different e-checkout systems all handle inventory differently.  Most gun sites these days are once paid or once at the payment page... 

PSA's appears to only remove once paid.