Do you draw your DA/SA pistol with hammer down or cocked and locked?

[fastlane604]

Do you draw your DA/SA pistol with hammer down or cocked and locked.  Cocked and locked moves you to ESP in IDPA. I'm not familiar with USPSA rules, is there an ESP counterpart in USPSA?

[emjei]

IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA


If you want to stay in Production ( SSP in IDPA you MUST start hammer down

[fastlane604]

IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA


If you want to stay in Production ( SSP in IDPA you MUST start hammer down

Yes, I know in SSP one must draw DA. I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.

[1SOW]

"Production" class in USPSA is the closest thing to IDPA SSP.   ALL must be Fully hammer down on the draw and  first shot.  A decocker in the decocked position is considered fully down.  The safetied pistols have to be FULLY decocked on the draw.

The "Limited" classes are closer to ESP.  SA & safety on the "Make Ready".  Limited 10 is where the mag can only have 10rds at the draw. 
Limited class typically is run with 26rd + mags,  but can be shot in "Limited-Minor PF---125pf minimum,  but your scores when off the A-zone are lower than when using Major PF---minimum 165 pf.  Hard to compete with the shooters shooting major.

[frgood]

I am a novice to USPSA. I draw DA/SA. Running A CZ 85 Limited

[M1A4ME]

Cocked and locked.  One reason I like my P07 so much.  It works like my 1911s.

[twowheels]

I usually shoot ESP rather than SSP.

[Canuck44]

IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA

There is no such a division in USPSA

Right you are I was thinking of IPSC.

Bob

[Canuck44]

I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.

With a well tuned DA trigger, I see no advantage to starting cocked and locked

Mastering one trigger pull vs two might be one advantage but that would be the only one I would think.

Take Care

Bob

[1SOW]

For those without practice shooting DA first shots:  Fear NOT the DA pull!

If your pistol is tuned up and lubed properly,  learning to shoot DA is just a matter of practice.   A range/comp. tuning makes it very easy to do with speed and accuracy.  A 5-6 pound DA pull with a 2.8-3 pound SA is very easy to learn.   Learning and using this  makes ANY pistol fit your skill level.  Pull the pistol and press the trigger -- bang on target.   NOT learning this, can  limit and/or slow your use of handguns -- revolvers, striker fired, de-cockers or DA/SA. 

IMHO,  the one requiring the MOST complex skill/practice is a safetied SA pistol.  An extra step is required to fire the handgun. No matter how fast or safely you can do this,  it still requires a slightly more complex action to fire.

[Canuck44]

1SOW the SA with Safety on is one more step but from a practical point of view for 1911 designs the sweeping off of the safety is no more complex than pulling the trigger and for most is accomplished as the gun rises to the firing position.  Some guns like my CZ Shadowline with very thin safeties it is more difficult and impossible without shifting ones hands IF your thumbs are not long. 

The Glock/M&P designs without a manual safety and light 2.5# SA triggers are very fast and dominate IDPA now in all three pistol divisions in the hands of the top shooters.   To be fair the top shooters could beat most of us one handed with ease.  From what I can see for most shooters the gain or loss using any of the various combinations of trigger/safeties or trigger systems SA. DA/SA or DAO are lost just on the ability of the shooter. 

If you look at the scores between SSP and ESP they really are not much different.  Some would say they are statistically even yet ESP allows SA guns like the 1911 and a host of modifications not allowed in SSP.  For most the mods and action types makes no difference in performance or so it wuld seem.

Take Care

Bob   

[1SOW]

Thanks Bob,  I don't disagree with your findings,  and I wasn't trying to detract from a safetied SA pistol.  I was trying to discourage those that are avoiding the DA first shot as some kind of detriment.

I do disagree with the thought of avoiding a DA pull for some kind of accuracy or speed loss.  Like your seeing little difference in SSP vs ESP times among the top shooters,   In USPSA the top Production shooters are every bit as fast and accurate as the Limited shooters.  The Limited pistols have the high capacity mags and  mag wells that do give a distinct advantage  over Production class 10 rd maximums along with higher scores for any outside the A-Zone.
It would be very interesting to see a match between a top Limited SA shooter,  but only allowed 10 rds in the mag,  against a top Production DA shooter.  I suspect the results would be virtually a tie on average.

Avoiding a DA first shot is not necessary to shooting well or being fast was the point I was trying to make.  Each have their own advantages.

 

[himurax13]

Thanks Bob,  I don't disagree with your findings,  and I wasn't trying to detract from a safetied SA pistol.  I was trying to discourage those that are avoiding the DA first shot as some kind of detriment.

I do disagree with the thought of avoiding a DA pull for some kind of accuracy or speed loss.  Like your seeing little difference in SSP vs ESP times among the top shooters,   In USPSA the top Production shooters are every bit as fast and accurate as the Limited shooters.  The Limited pistols have the high capacity mags and  mag wells that do give a distinct advantage  over Production class 10 rd maximums along with higher scores for any outside the A-Zone.
It would be very interesting to see a match between a top Limited SA shooter,  but only allowed 10 rds in the mag,  against a top Production DA shooter.  I suspect the results would be virtually a tie on average.

Avoiding a DA first shot is not necessary to shooting well or being fast was the point I was trying to make.  Each have their own advantages.

 

I have recently started competing in USPSA, IDPA, and Action pistol after a 3 year hiatus. I spent a few months trying to shoot a Gen 4 Glock 35 and I was unable to drive the gun in a matter to my liking. I figured this was the perfect time to move from a 75SA to an SP01/SP01 Shadow while I get reacquainted to shooting a CZ. I must say that shooting DA/SA was a short learning curve for me. I also tried a match utilizing the safety. I was more accurate with the safety but I found myself drawing much faster while still easily hitting the first target from Double action. I will probably spend most of this year playing in SSP and Production.

[Canuck44]

I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.

With a well tuned DA trigger, I see no advantage to starting cocked and locked

Mastering one trigger pull vs two might be one advantage but that would be the only one I would think.

Take Care

Bob

It's the singer not the song

Exact;y.  That said when the singers all have about the same ability you would think those with additional accessories or "improvements" would have an advantage that would produce improved scores.   What I find interesting is we don't see it.  SSP and ESP scores at large matches are almost identical.

Most shooters on most forums want to improve the trigger pull on their guns for example.  Few would argue that a tuned 1911 arguably has the best SA trigger pull in the land of firearms.  You would think the design would dominate ESP division in terms of number of pistols entered and in the results not only for the top shooters but through the various classifications.  But we don't see that..  The the SA trigger found on the guns, along with a magwell even on the double stack 1911's is still not enough to dominate a division nor to score better when compared to other designs.  The perceived advantages appear to be just that perceived and don't seem to provide advantages that relate to improve scoring. 

The effect the draw has on scoring I believe is overstated in any event and plays a smaller part in the shooters overall score than most realize.  From my experience at any given match a fast draw may only come into play on a few stages.  This is particularly true on IPSC stages.  Most stages in IPSC and I would presume USPSA require some movement before shots are fired.  You start at a shooting position and move to a door or port before shooting and the draw is completed while moving to the point where you can fire a shot.  IDPA is a bit different but even there stages can involve some movement before reaching the shooting position giving time for the draw to be completed.

One item I would like to be changed in IDPA is the requirement that DA/SA pistols like the CZ be started hammer down.  The guns can safely be carried cocked and locked.  This would place the guns in the same condition of carry as the Striker fired guns.  Both designs would start with a light SA trigger pull.  I would argue this would see an end to the Striker fired dominance of SSP division.  It might also generate some interest in reviewing the decision to base divisions on the type of action the pistil has or how many modifications one can do on their toys.  Ah but that is for another discussion and another time.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Bossgobbler]

 Posted by: Canuck44
"The effect the draw has on scoring I believe is overstated in any event and plays a smaller part in the shooters overall score than most realize."   This simply not true.  If you take a B class shooter that draws and fires their first in 1.75sec. and work with them to improve their draw to 1.00 to the first shot, this is a huge gain.  in the coarse of most matches it will = 3-4sec. and that will move you ahead of a lot of competitors.