Author Topic: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)  (Read 10091 times)

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Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« on: January 09, 2015, 03:14:01 PM »
Older video, but thought I would share from my YouTube Account:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBMXxzFprYw
SGT, CAV
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Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 03:15:23 PM »
And here is why not an AR platform as your defensive rifle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ft7fXSmuX8
SGT, CAV
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Offline IamCaleb

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2015, 06:57:56 PM »
Great vids, thanks for taking the time to do them.  I as well prefer the 58 over the AK.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2015, 08:12:11 PM »
Some good and interesting points to consider for sure.  Well executed video and definitely points to consider FOR the VZ 58 system.  Thanks for putting yourself in harms way for our country.  Scouts out.

But:  M4s are not inherently unreliable.  My nephew has done too many tours in the sandbox as a Marine, and his M4 Colt on last rotation never hiccuped from trainup though redeployment.  He saw action, came back wounded on that tour.  Also, I HAD a CAI kit build M70 folder that could put 10 rds in 1.5 inches at 50 yards with Wolf.  My VZ 58 cannot do that.  I have not seen that much difference from my SARs to my VZ.  The VZ has an edge in accuracy, but not leaps and bounds.

The AKs you buy for $1000 are military grade weapons with CHF barrels.  The Czechpoint builds for $1200 are also (kinda).  CHF barrels, manufacture in a real factory, proper metallurgy proven for two generations , etc.  A $400 carbine is not a military grade weapon.  It may shoot well, be reliable for you, but it isn't Milspec in any way and is not meant to be for the price.  (It is a great bargain for what it is). You CAN now snatch a Colt carbine 6920 for just over $800 on the right sale - a real deal Milspec weapon for a GOOD price.  It has been proven to be reliable in combat, and it is trainable to 2 MOA or better with iron sights without extensive training.  The irons are much better than an AK or VZ.

Very good 5.56 brass ammo can be had for $300-330 shipped per 1K case.  Very reliable and very accurate.  5.56 steel, not much worse for about $240/K.  7.62 can be had for $220-250/K - steel case.  Not sure that this is much of a difference. 

LAV is pretty much on target:  AKs are more accurate and ARs more reliable than most people think.  But you are right - the AK/VZ is MUCH easier to keep in reliable form through more abuse and neglect.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 08:23:18 PM by briang2ad »

Offline Airacuda

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 09:11:33 PM »
WoW! I get on an AK website and cannot get away from the AR worshipers. Now I find another awesome weapon I have been using hard for the last year, and a nice forum. I should be glad that not many know about these jewels, but here again someone has to defend the.......I quit.

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 09:49:12 PM »
I've shared your videos before here.  Good overviews.  Thanks for making them.

Worth noting that the Russians did require the Czechs to switch from 7.62x45 Czech that the vz58 was originally designed for (same cartridge as VZ52 [Soviets forced late conversions of the VZ52 too, the VZ52/57 is 7.62x39], the 7.62x45 was essentially a 6.8 spc spec load w/ powders of the time -- but Cris Murray, 6.8 SPC lead designer developed a new universal cartridge inspired by the 7.62x45 Czech that he's pushing as the new universal cartridge for our boots on the ground; I'm a big fan the cartridge) to 7.62x39.  But that's the only major change I've gathered that the soviets insisted on...  Had they kept 7.62x45, I think hands down, the VZ58 would be recognized as the best military rifle of the era and be superior to/preferred by the high speed community vs many of the other options available today...  Essentially, the Soviets didn't start really iron fisting Warsaw Pact nations until the 60s or so when the uprisings started...

Now, their next gen rifle, the Lada/CZ2000 was very much an improved AK74 (looks like long stroke piston AK internals but have never seen one disassembled) -- sort of a tantal/galil hybrid -- and was to be chambered in 5.45x39 for the Lada and CZ2000 at some point was redesigned for 5.56 after the fall of the Soviet Union.  Then finally, that switched around and redesigned again as a short stroke action where it looks like there were just trying to copy the SCAR/Tavor/etc operating system...  I believe somewhere I saw that it was allegedly inspired by the VZ52 and lessons learned from Lada...

ARs aren't good with sand, but it seems to be an issue of the "lube attracts dirt" and "run your guns dry in the desert" bs as well as the sad state of military mags that causes failures much of the time.  !@##ting where it eats, especially in regards to heat dumping into the receiver is brutal on a weapon's op system as well...  But with quality mil-spec parts that's not necessarily imminent failure provided regular service and replacing parts at service life/before failure...

Quote
16,874 rounds of Freedom Munitions through the Knight's Armament Company SR-15 MOD2. Zero cleanings, Zero malfunctions.
Lubed every 800-1,600 rounds with Wilson Combat grease.
https://www.facebook.com/ballisticradio/photos/a.354410478023122.1073741831.277229719074532/578454525618715

http://vimeo.com/114095244
*This is the after video.

http://vimeo.com/114094746
Quote
15,350 rounds of Freedom Munitions (Official) through the Knight's Armament Company SR-15 MOD2 (the last 350 of them after having been submerged multiple times in 50 pounds of sand)

Zero cleanings.

Zero malfunctions. (1 soft piece of brass failed to extract 5,000-6,000 rounds ago, but was not counted against the gun)

Still shooting sub 1 MOA groups.

ETA: In response to the "Open the bolt and pour sand directly into the action then see if it runs comments."

I'll do that as soon as the people leaving me those comments post video of them opening the trays to their Xbox, pouring sand in them, and seeing if they still run...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=571969806267187

*AKs don't run when sand is dumped straight into the action either -- 3:30 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHlFfhrDn2c

20,000 Rounds Through An Knight's Armament SR-15 MOD2...Now With SAND!!!!!
http://youtu.be/UvPmJYcgBSo

To be clear, no AR fanboy here, and I totally agree w/ your thoughts on the caliber.  Benefits of 5.56 as I see it -- it's lighter so you can carry a little more rounds per weight volume.  It's a little more compact round as well and wider and cheaper range of 5.56 mag pouches for carry vests, etc.  It shoots flatter which is very important for new shooters that don't have experience w/ holdovers, etc.  And if we're truly in an SHTF situation if that's what your collection is geared around, ammo and weapon pickups will be important, so at a minimum it's good to know how to both run and maintain ARs as well have some weapons in that caliber that you're willing to trust your life to.  I primarily focus on Galils in this caliber (it's a rifle and a 5.56 is a rifle round, despite being most effective in military loadings in carbine engagement distances...) but I do have both an AR pistol carbine in 9mm and a 5.56 piston carbine (both ~16") on hand for training/familiarity as well as the wife likes them and current and former military friends/family prefer that platform/mechanics should the need arise to equip them...
 
Ultimately, the VZ has had some modern ergo/furniture upgrades that I think are pretty essential, but otherwise that base system really hasn't changed... 
Whereas the AR has been continually improved upon to fix all the issues with its core operating system ranging from ammo to components, etc -- so many that were mag related an really only come close to solving in the past decade (though I don't see a scenario in which a push button mechanism is either more secure or more durable than tilt locks)...

And I find the VZ58 to be an/the ideal carbine, especially if fully dressed w/ modern upgrades, if but if I had to "bug out" and carry one weapon w/ no resupply or ammo caches, I'd have a conundrum on 5.56 vs 7.62x39 just due to both number of rounds I could keep on me and which caliber I'm most likely to encounter in a battlefield pickups/scavenging or just general scavenging situation...
Non-bugout and/or having a re-supply system, 7.62x39 and the VZ58 is the clear winner for carbine platforms for me...

The VZ mags weighing 1/2 lb less when full than an AK steel mag is a major equalizer though and allows you to carry a fair bit more ammo...  With a 20lb ammo load per anther thread going, that's ~100 more rounds for the same weight as 7.62x39 AK steel mags.  Still only about ~2/3rds the ammo of equivalent weight in 5.56, but it's better than the 1/2 the number of rounds scenario you'd have with steel AK Mags and 7.62x39.
And for reliability -- AK mags can be dicey and often have issues that lead to feeding issues...  VZ Mags are almost entirely OE.  So they work darn near always.  No problem with bum mags due to slight but important spec differences between AK manufacturers (and stampings/bendings or receivers also cause unforeseen issues too that generally are less likely with millings provided tooling components experiencing wear were replaced before they went out of spec...

Also, reliability of weapon systems when dirty is two fold.  1) is tolerances, and 2) is the bolt carrier weight/cycling force.  Heavy bolt carriers require more gas pressure to move, so while they usually do tend to increase felt recoil, they also push through a lot more crud and have a similarly strong/stronger return spring (both to arrest rearward movement and return it to battery)...

My personal break on 7.62x39 vs 5.56 is that 5.56 is an ideal fields/prairie type round, new shooters (see holdover point earlier) or for the very recoil sensitive...  Otherwise, all other environs the 7.62x39 is superior as it's less likely to deflect and penetrate through cover (and actually the 7.62x39 has a greater effective range but its drop at ranges/trajectory makes that extra range more of a wash between the calibers...  In regards to performance, 5.56 really only beats 7.62x39 in penetration of plate steel and not overpenetrating at very close distances, and if fmj, then 5.56 is better w/in 150 yards or so in tumbling/fragmenting/etc earlier... 
But, 7n6 5.45x39 beats FMJ 5.56 in almost every category in my book; however, with that now being banned from import (not to mention it's corrosive), 5.45x39 moving forward once that surplus stock is exhausted will essentially be a lower velocity version of 5.56.  Yes, it might feed and extract a little more reliably due to cartridge case design but otherwise have inferior performance...  And yes, there is some very good 5.56 ammo that is considerably more costly than FMJ, but some of the Russian soft point stuff is serviceable...

On the new 7x46 UIAC, inspired by the 7.62x45 Czech:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/07/7x46mm-uiac-universal-intermediate-assault-cartridge/
http://www.7x46mmuiac.com/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:27:31 AM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 11:21:08 PM »
But:  M4s are not inherently unreliable.  My nephew has done too many tours in the sandbox as a Marine, and his M4 Colt on last rotation never hiccuped from trainup though redeployment.  He saw action, came back wounded on that tour.  Also, I HAD a CAI kit build M70 folder that could put 10 rds in 1.5 inches at 50 yards with Wolf.  My VZ 58 cannot do that.  I have not seen that much difference from my SARs to my VZ.  The VZ has an edge in accuracy, but not leaps and bounds.

briang2ad - You sure he didn't have the M16A4?  With a rifle length gas system and 20" barrel? 
*The gas system length is pretty important in the 5.56 AR.  The shorter the gas system, the more pressure there still is inside the brass pushing against the chamber walls...  For 5.56, being a relatively straight walled cartridge, makes it much harder to extract with that chamber/brass bond being stronger when under higher pressure -- this results in increased wear and tear on the extractor as well as various extraction related malfunctions the shorter you go...  The Army M4 uses a carbine length gas system.  7" carbine vs 12" rifle gas tube.  Pistol length systems have even worse extraction issues with their 4" gas tubes...  (And problem is even worse on civilian rifles like the 16" m4 clones that have 9" of barrel past the gas port, when the weapon is designed for 7" of barrel past gas port...

*Mainly, the Army switched to M4s as overwhelmingly Army infantry units are vehicle mounted (can't deploy long rifles effectively inside vehicles), whereas marines are more dis/foot mounted.
Good read: http://humanevents.com/2009/08/25/m16-still-hot-enough-for-marines/

And 5.56 ammo performs better and is more capable out of longer barrels as it is very velocity dependent.  Also consideration for velocity:
Quote
Penetration and Fragmentation are key to the .223/5.56 ammo. Bullets that penetrate 10-12"? or higher are usually preferred. Generally FMJ bullets begin to fragment at 2500-2700 fps or higher. OTM/BTHP/SMK bullets generally begin to fragment at 2200-2300 fps or higher. Soft Point (SP) Ammo generally begins to fragment at 2000 fps or higher. Ballistic Tip (BT) ammo generally begins to fragment at 1900 fps or higher.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=281405


Chart source: http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

With that 2500 fps threshold for 5.56 FMJ to perform, the 14.5" carbines w/ 2700 fps muzzle velocity "B" in chart is only effective w/in sub 100 yard ranges.  20" barreled M16s almost double that range, to ~180 yards, the "A" option in the chart.  With soft point ammo, the 20" barrel is fragment capable to 350 yards vs 250 yards on the 14.5" carbine...  Generally, also goes as to why I like 7.62x39 in a carbine and 5.56 in rifles...  (made this chart using gundata.org)


Lastly, bear in mind European FMJ NATO ammo usually has thicker jackets requiring higher velocities to fragment than does US Ammo due to their lawyers differing interpretations of the hague treaty...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:28:01 PM by RSR »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 07:25:02 AM »
Gents: no my nephew is MARSOC, and did use a colt M4 on that deployment.  I'm looking at a picture of him right now and yes it's an M4.

 I am also strange too in that in most positions I find the AK to give a longer softer push and the Vz58 to give a snappier and more annoying recoil impulse.  This is also a cost of the lighter weapon system. I suppose that if you mount your optics higher this is not a problem at all but if you cowitness you have to get your cheek down on the platform and at an angle the short impulse from the short gas system is more pronounced and snappier than the AK.

Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 11:29:49 AM »
WoW! I get on an AK website and cannot get away from the AR worshipers. Now I find another awesome weapon I have been using hard for the last year, and a nice forum. I should be glad that not many know about these jewels, but here again someone has to defend the.......I quit.

I feel your pain.
SGT, CAV
OEF1, OIF 1&2
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Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 11:47:27 AM »
Wow!  I didn't expect to illicit this level of controversy or vehement defense of the AR. 

FWIW my experience with the M-16A2 in regular line (Infantry, Armor and Cavalry) units does not support your findings guys.  But then again that is with standard, ie lowest bidder, mil spec rifles.  MARSOC is not using standard mil spec Colt M-4's, nut rather highly tuned SOPMOD M-4's and that's why his has likely run flawlessly.  That and the fact that he is highly training in the care and maintenance of that weapons system.  Which is why the M-16 family of rifles has been so successful as a military carbine.  The soldiers and marines issued them are highly trained on their care and maintenance.  If you are going to buy a top of the line AR, or build one from the best parts available, and you know how to care and maintain that rifle then I can and often is a great choice.  But the budget AR's and most of the standard production AR's don't rise to the same level of quality or reliability in my opinion. 

These video's were not originally made for this forum, and were originally intended for someone, perhaps not a big gun enthusiast, that was looking for an ideal SHTF type defensive carbine.

Again FWIW, when I left the wire in Iraq my M-16A2 got clamped into the bracket in my Humvee and I carried a captured AK-47.  Not because I had ever personally experienced a malfunction with that weapon in combat, but rather because others had AND because the 5.56 round was extremely limited in penetrating soft or mild barriers, whereas the 7.62x39 either went right through most of those barriers (doors, metal gates, cars, mud brick construction, etc) or made them disappear.

Not trying to knock any particular weapon system.  You have to choose what is right for you.  For ME, that's the Vz. 58.
SGT, CAV
OEF1, OIF 1&2
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2015, 01:24:22 PM »
He used an m4a1 with SOPMOD kit which is an extensive accessory kit that doesn't change what the base weapon is.  It allows for rail, better sights,sling, etc. the base gun is exact specs issued to the common grunt.  (I know because he just texted me). My point is that you can buy a semi auto copy of the m4 made by colt with the very same TDP, for about 300 less than a comparable VZ 58 from czechppont IF you can find one.  That would be an apples to apples comparison.  Or compare to an AK like a Bulgarian Arsenal which costs $150 more than the Colt.  The colt will more readily accept tons of accessories ranging from cheap to gold plated, and come with sights you can use extremely well OTB, much better than the AK/VZ. 


I'm not an AR worshipper and own more on the AK side than AR.  But it is more straightforward to compare apples to apples. 

Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 04:29:54 PM »
He used an m4a1 with SOPMOD kit which is an extensive accessory kit that doesn't change what the base weapon is.  It allows for rail, better sights,sling, etc. the base gun is exact specs issued to the common grunt.  (I know because he just texted me). My point is that you can buy a semi auto copy of the m4 made by colt with the very same TDP, for about 300 less than a comparable VZ 58 from czechppont IF you can find one.  That would be an apples to apples comparison.  Or compare to an AK like a Bulgarian Arsenal which costs $150 more than the Colt.  The colt will more readily accept tons of accessories ranging from cheap to gold plated, and come with sights you can use extremely well OTB, much better than the AK/VZ. 


I'm not an AR worshipper and own more on the AK side than AR.  But it is more straightforward to compare apples to apples.

Perhaps MARSOC, being the redheaded stepchild of SOCOM, does just get the standard mil spec M4A1 with no modifications beyond the accessories, but I know for a fact that the vast majority of Army SOCOM elements, SF, 160th and Ranger Bn's, all modify their M4's internally, new bolt and carrier, triggers, polish job, etc.  And that's if they are not already using very high quality piston M4 variants. 

In other words even if they were issued to the unit as mil spec rifles 90% of SOCOM units will have their armorers rebuild them with high quality internals and polish and tune everything before they end up in the operators hands.  Keep in mind I served in the Army from 1996-2005 and was only exposed to several different USASOC units from 1999-2005, in addition to serving with several long tabbed Senior NCO's.

SGT, CAV
OEF1, OIF 1&2
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2015, 07:38:03 PM »
The example stands.  The AR platform in mil spec is much more reliable than generally considered.  I would offer to viewers here to read about Dirty 14, a BCM STD MILSPEC gun running over 40,000 rds with minimal maintenance, and was still going strong.  And the owner of BCM, a marine, even holds a Colt as the gold standard and folks can now get them for much less than a few years ago.  Colts Technical Data Package was attained over decades of production and deployment.  It's a great weapon especially here in our climes, is noticeably more accurate than a 7.62 gun, and is easily maintained with a modicum of training.  And, it isn't inherently unreliable.

And, comparing CAI kit builds to carbines built on go-to-war production lines, whether AK, AR, or VZ is apples to oranges.

Yet, I might still grab an AK given the circumstances.  They do have their strengths.  Heck, nothing is handier (other than a SBR) than a VZ With folding stock.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 07:41:15 PM by briang2ad »

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2015, 07:46:06 PM »
Gents: no my nephew is MARSOC, and did use a colt M4 on that deployment.  I'm looking at a picture of him right now and yes it's an M4.

Thank makes sense then.  Thanks for clarifying.

I know for a fact that the vast majority of Army SOCOM elements, SF, 160th and Ranger Bn's, all modify their M4's internally, new bolt and carrier, triggers, polish job, etc.  And that's if they are not already using very high quality piston M4 variants. 

In other words even if they were issued to the unit as mil spec rifles 90% of SOCOM units will have their armorers rebuild them with high quality internals and polish and tune everything before they end up in the operators hands.  Keep in mind I served in the Army from 1996-2005 and was only exposed to several different USASOC units from 1999-2005, in addition to serving with several long tabbed Senior NCO's.

+1.  My understanding is that a lot of spec ops folks these days are going the HK416 route as it has similar weight, ergos/manual of arms to m4, and looks similar to the m4...  SCARs still occur too, but tend to only be used when there's a need for alternative calibers from 5.56 like 7.62 NATO or 6.8spc...

If for whatever reason they can't replace entire rifles, some switch uppers for the HK416s and at a minimum seem to do geissele or other 2 stage triggers, seekins bolt release or magpul/troy levers, and norgon or troy ambi mag releases, etc...  Ambi safeties are fairly common too as is switching out grips...  And bolts/bolt carrier groups, buffers, and the other actual operating stuff is often upgraded too.  Same for mags.  Optics tend to stay sopmod just due to cost...  Can't forget stocks.  Basically if it can be swapped/upgraded relatively affordably through personal funds w/o the chain of command throwing a fit then it is swapped/upgraded.

Good read, from 2012, w/ pics: http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 08:11:29 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 06:05:56 PM »
SEAL weapons -- talks here about how, internally, they kept uppers milspec w/ just trigger and safeties being aftermarket:

http://youtu.be/w7wFHviwp9k

Also, they spec out their Navy Special Warfare weapons on the website as well piece by piece if you're interested: http://highcalibersales.com/
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 07:33:22 PM by RSR »