Author Topic: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)  (Read 10094 times)

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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 09:03:05 AM »
There is no reason to replace the BCG in a Colt/DD/BCM or any service carbine for reliability - the spec/TDP has been developed over a long time.  The fact that my nephew is MARSOC (now Raiders) is irrelevant.  He trusted a stock Colt through a trainup deployment to include combat, because it works, just as it is for line infantry.

Just checked with another friend who worked Army SF.  Spent plenty of time in the sandbox both in SF and line.  Lifetime infantry professional. Internal mods were basically forbidden even in SF.  Some with the skills did them, but these are mostly on the trigger end - not because there is a problem with BCGs.  The one problem that cropped up to which a systematic fix was needed was to the extractor O-Ring.  This is well documented on serious sites like M4Carbine.com. 

BL:  The M4 is reliable for combat.  Its longevity is also well documented, and when you do shoot out a barrel or BCG, the weapon can be fixed easily.  Drop a new BCG in an AR and move out.  Do it in a AK/VZ, and now you have to pull the barrel often after a headspace check.

The VZ58 provides a neat, light, compact alternative to the AK, with something as reliable, and a tad more accurate when comparing most guns.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 04:19:04 PM by briang2ad »

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 08:26:57 PM »
I honestly don't pay much attention to AR15s, but I'm pretty sure I recall hearing about professional downrange trigger pullers switching from the military standard to one of the modern coating Nickel Boron, Nickel Teflon, or similar coatings... 1) b/c they're self lubricating (and remain so regardless of amount of heat in the receiver, oil evaporates; also, the "oil attracts dirt" line of thought that I don't quite buy but is very common in the military, uncertain how prevalent amount special ops units...), and 2) b/c they make cleaning much easier, essentially just a quick wipe w/ CLP to remove carbon...  At one point, I'm also fairly confident, I heard of special ops units switching back to old chromed carriers, but since they can send in milspec carriers to have these new coatings applied, it allows them to remain in (arguably better) parts spec but with a coating with the benefits of chrome and more...  Possibly was also thinking about the extractor spring which looks like it's now part of the SOPMOD bolt upgrade kit, but it looks like that is now standard, at least for special operations folks...

Failzero's EXO: http://www.failzero.com/exo-technology.html
and
Robar's NP3: http://robarguns.com/custom-firearm-finishes/np3/
come to mind...

I do follow the tragicomedy that is our military's acquisition process...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 08:52:56 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 08:51:44 PM »
Also a great read
-- on why most stanag/gi aluminum mags suck (they were never designed to be reused and have been for far too long...)
-- on why bolt carrier mass/gas port/recoil spring tension/buffer weight matters (ARs are so finely tuned and w/ such tight tolerances in stock forms that they don't have the force/mass to push through fouling...  Heavier buffers and heavier springs combine to bring combined bcg weight up to AK and similar standards...

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

Good review on finding best buffer for your weapon (heavier spring would allow a lighter buffer...): http://youtu.be/YwvcWgNBu2Y

Edit: was trying to find the bolt carrier info, but can't locate the source.  Perhaps it was in one of those things that aren't electronic...  Oh yeah, a book, haha.
Regardless, m4carbine had this info which seems to lineup w/ my memory (lots of good info there, high points below): http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-71836.html

Quote
Quote
01-19-11, 21:17

I hate to derail a thread... but are you absolutely hell-bent on using one of those coatings?

I ask because I do not think any of them offer any quantifiable advantage to the end-user.

I have used Ion Bond, Teflon-Nickel, Nickel-Boron (Exo) and NP3 on many different gun parts (including AR BCGs). While they certainly look nice and (sometimes) wipe off easy, they don't offer me a quantifiable upgrade for the amount of money invested.

I still have to use acquire and use lube, clean BCG parts and generally maintain my rifle just like I did before. The BCG and affected parts still wear.

In fact, I found many of the above coatings to be inferior to the 'ol tried and true parkerizing. I've had several of the above coatings chip, peel or?in the case of a moderately abused M60 bolt?flake off. That never happens with park.

I like new technology and all, but I'm not sold on the new push to "super coatings" fad just yet. There are too many panaceas being peddled right now and I think we should let the dust settle before wasting more money on miracle cures.

Manganese phosphate has been kicking ass on AR BCGs since the 1960s.

01-19-11, 22:05

The first M16s I was issued were HC. They dated from the 1960s. They shat all over parkerizing, which the Army switched to for largely cosmetic reasons. I carried some that were 20+ years old with no signs of flaking. A most durable "fad."

Park doesn't flake off, but it does wear off very rapidly. It also causes hydrogen embrittlement, which is relevant to small, treated metal parts such as bolt lugs and extractors.

I have used HC successfully in my ARs for 20 years. I took my own HC BCG downrange and swapped out for the issue garbage.

So, yes, I'm sure.:)

I will gladly spend another $100 on a critical internal component before wasting money on real fads, such as 6 angles of rail gewgaw, flipping things or 19 point slings that do nothing to improve the mechanical function of the weapon.

I'm looking for Rc numbers, Cx and sources.

Thanks.:)


Quote
01-21-11, 11:47

http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=241681

Bolt/carrier groups. Top is the early AR-15 and M16 bolt group, no forward assist cuts. Later transitional M16 bolt group is not pictured (mix of chrome and parked parts). Second down is the early XM16E1 bolt group, has added forward assist cuts. Next is the late XM16E1 and M16 and early M16A1 bolt group, now parked (transitional bolt groups are a mix of chrome and parked parts). Third from bottom is the later C marked M16/A1 bolt group. Second from bottom is the M16A2 bolt group. Bottom is the M16A4 bolt group, it is parked a lighter color:



Stoner intended and designed hard chrome. Parkerizing was a cosmetic change by the Army, for "tactical" reasons, since chrome is shiny.

Chrome operating mass, combined with this chromed extension, led to almost flawless functioning regardless of sand, muck, carbon.



As I was able to do several years of side by side comparison of the two types, I consider it very worth it.

Quote
01-23-11, 10:35

I shot chrome and park side by side for 5 years. I won't say the park are crap by comparison, but they are definitely second tier, if for no other reason than maintenance. The extra $50 or so for chrome is recouped in the first five cleanings, in time and materials saved. Unless someone believes chrome is INFERIOR in function.

If the chrome avoids one jam at the wrong time, and statistically it will, it's worth it.

At the extreme end, I saw a sealed container of M16s that were put away wet and dirty. They were opened up 12 weeks later, because someone decided it might be a good idea to double check before an IG visit.

Parked assys, rusted shut into the lugs, unsalvageable, trash.

Chrome assys as above, required replacement of rusty hammers and some very serious cleaning and oiling, but were functional.

It doesn't matter how good the materials and workmanship are when oxygen comes calling.

I'm tempted to do a salt water immersion test. I have a spare BCG I could donate.

Quote
01-24-11, 21:10

My experience was that the hard chrome ran significantly better in all circumstances. There's not much difference for the first few dozen rounds, but after that, it's noticeable.

Bunches of people (who are wrong:)) will disagree with me, but lube IS NOT the solution to second-rate function. Installing better components is the solution. As many people learn the hard way in the Sandbox, oil + Arabian dust = mud. Oil is a FIELD REPAIR for a rough running AR. If you can't run it without oil, it is mechanically inadequate.

Quote
Quote
01-26-11, 18:34

This is from the current ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P

NOTE
There are bolts and bolt carriers on fielded rifles, some with chrome-plated exterior surface finishes
and some with phosphate coating Both finishes are acceptable under certain operational requirements
and or restrictions Phosphate-coated bolt carriers are required for divisional combat units Chrome
plated bolt carriers are acceptable for divisional noncombat units and training center units. Chromeplated
and phosphate-coated bolt assemblies, bolt carrier assemblies, and repair parts for these
assemblies may be intermixed In any combination, with the following exception:
Phosphate-coated bolt carriers are required for all deployable and deploying units Chrome-plated bolt
carriers are acceptable for nondeployable and training center units.

01-26-11, 18:46

As I noted in another thread, this has nothing to do with function, and is strictly a cosmetic issue because "chrome is shiny." They're afraid it will show up when it's illuminated by muzzle flash or some crap.

Notice they don't consider the bolt a problem if chromed, just the carrier.

This is why when you design a weapon, you give the infantrymen sticks and send them out to whack snakes while the engineers do the work. Every time the Army has stuck its dick in the M16, they've ****ed it up worse.

This matches the pattern of problems with the M14, Garand and previous weapons.

Just because it's milspec does not make it smart. In fact, usually the opposite.

I believe Kuleck noted in one of his books that the Army keeps insisting the M16 will be replaced "within a couple of years" and refusing to accept Colt, FN and other proposals for upgrades as "Wasted money."

Sorry, but with respect, after 25 years in service, "The manual says so" means dick to me. The manual was usually written by ****stick.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:42:34 AM by RSR »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2015, 09:41:27 AM »
Pat McNamara's Filthy 14 and modern lubes demonstrate the adequacy of the real MILSPEC BCG.  All well documented with further research on m4carbine.com, and verified in the field.  Keep in mi d that the average person on the www isn't running a MILSPEC BCG anyway.  No ... Not all MILSPEC's are perfect, but in this case it's good. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:54:14 AM by briang2ad »

Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2015, 12:25:27 PM »
I just wanna thank everyone for hijacking my thread on why I chose a VZ. 58 platform rifle and making it all about AR's, on a CZ forum no less!  Thanks!
SGT, CAV
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Offline gwvt

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2015, 02:48:17 PM »
Get a Glock!

I just wanna thank everyone for hijacking my thread on why I chose a VZ. 58 platform rifle and making it all about AR's, on a CZ forum no less!  Thanks!

Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2015, 04:00:33 PM »
Get a Glock!

I just wanna thank everyone for hijacking my thread on why I chose a VZ. 58 platform rifle and making it all about AR's, on a CZ forum no less!  Thanks!

Lol.  I have the obligatory Glock 19.
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Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 05:39:49 PM »
I just wanna thank everyone for hijacking my thread on why I chose a VZ. 58 platform rifle and making it all about AR's, on a CZ forum no less!  Thanks!

LMAO...   Saw that!  WTH? ...
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 05:43:15 PM »
I just wanna thank everyone for hijacking my thread on why I chose a VZ. 58 platform rifle and making it all about AR's, on a CZ forum no less!  Thanks!
[/quote]

Lol.  I have the obligatory Glock 19.
[/quote]

...and I thought the g17 was the obligatory model.  I guess I shouldn't have sold my G19. 

At least the thread isn't an AR thread anymore --- is now a Glock thread.  LMAO
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2015, 03:54:35 AM »
Your 2nd video was about the AR15, and whether it is suitable for defensive purposes...  Yes, it diverted into AR15, but I enjoyed the discussion, sorry that you didn't.

What it comes down to is competing philosophies...

If I had to chose one military sporter, the choice would be a VZ58 or variant, as I like 7.62x39 as a compromise cartridge, and I think the VZ58 is the best weapon that utilizes this caliber...

However, if you're looking at a SHTF situation you can carry less rounds of 7.62x39, and most being steel case, is much more likely to corrode in the elements and generally speaking should be expected to be less likely to be found.  So you need something in 5.56 as well if considering a SHTF situation where you're relying on battlefield pickups for ammo supply (which IMO is any actual SHTF situation).  So you're faced with 2 proven platforms in 5.56 IMO -- the Galil or the AR.  Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Galil, but still recognize the importance of knowing how to run an AR...  From an availability and cost standpoint, it's pretty tough to fault a quality built AR for the price (and realizing they can be made to be more reliable than typically indicated), especially if it's a backup rather than primary weapon.  And as mentioned previously, the 5.56 round is intended to be a rifle round.  Carbines are compromises, but I'd think a 16" barrel is the minimum length to start with...  With 18 even better, and 20" is what it was designed for.  7.62x39 is carbine round best suited for barrels of 12-16", w/ 16" being what it was designed for...

As far as caliber selection, ballistics, etc, both 7.62x39 and 5.56 have their merits in specific circumstances.  In a VZ58, I can't make the case for a 5.56 choice over a 7.62x39.  And I can't make the case, for my needs, for the VZ58 over the Galil or AR in 5.56 either.  It's recent and new production, and I can't get on board w/ the polymer AR magwell (and despite liking tilt lock mags, the polymer 5.56 VZ58 mags are also a non-starter for me).  YMMV. 

Recognizing cost of ammo, differing roles, etc, I really think a solid case can be made for having both a semi auto 7.62x39 carbine, a semi auto 5.56 rifle, and a bolt action full caliber rifle in your arsenal.  I'm also a fan of pistol carbines and pistols of the same caliber.  And the obligatory 22lr rifle(s).  And I view shotguns as a niche weapon only to be utilized at the unit level in a self defense role, not by an individual.  Muskets have no place in a modern home/personal defense plan IMO, and most hunting, etc, uses of shotguns are more efficiently done w/ a properly selected rifle.  Only shotgun use I personally see as valuable in a self defense role is the duckbill attachments as an improvised and repeatable claymore.  Again, YMMV. 

Offline TF135Sierra2Xray

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2015, 11:22:49 AM »
Your 2nd video was about the AR15, and whether it is suitable for defensive purposes...  Yes, it diverted into AR15, but I enjoyed the discussion, sorry that you didn't.

What it comes down to is competing philosophies...

If I had to chose one military sporter, the choice would be a VZ58 or variant, as I like 7.62x39 as a compromise cartridge, and I think the VZ58 is the best weapon that utilizes this caliber...

However, if you're looking at a SHTF situation you can carry less rounds of 7.62x39, and most being steel case, is much more likely to corrode in the elements and generally speaking should be expected to be less likely to be found.  So you need something in 5.56 as well if considering a SHTF situation where you're relying on battlefield pickups for ammo supply (which IMO is any actual SHTF situation).  So you're faced with 2 proven platforms in 5.56 IMO -- the Galil or the AR.  Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Galil, but still recognize the importance of knowing how to run an AR...  From an availability and cost standpoint, it's pretty tough to fault a quality built AR for the price (and realizing they can be made to be more reliable than typically indicated), especially if it's a backup rather than primary weapon.  And as mentioned previously, the 5.56 round is intended to be a rifle round.  Carbines are compromises, but I'd think a 16" barrel is the minimum length to start with...  With 18 even better, and 20" is what it was designed for.  7.62x39 is carbine round best suited for barrels of 12-16", w/ 16" being what it was designed for...

As far as caliber selection, ballistics, etc, both 7.62x39 and 5.56 have their merits in specific circumstances.  In a VZ58, I can't make the case for a 5.56 choice over a 7.62x39.  And I can't make the case, for my needs, for the VZ58 over the Galil or AR in 5.56 either.  It's recent and new production, and I can't get on board w/ the polymer AR magwell (and despite liking tilt lock mags, the polymer 5.56 VZ58 mags are also a non-starter for me).  YMMV. 

Recognizing cost of ammo, differing roles, etc, I really think a solid case can be made for having both a semi auto 7.62x39 carbine, a semi auto 5.56 rifle, and a bolt action full caliber rifle in your arsenal.  I'm also a fan of pistol carbines and pistols of the same caliber.  And the obligatory 22lr rifle(s).  And I view shotguns as a niche weapon only to be utilized at the unit level in a self defense role, not by an individual.  Muskets have no place in a modern home/personal defense plan IMO, and most hunting, etc, uses of shotguns are more efficiently done w/ a properly selected rifle.  Only shotgun use I personally see as valuable in a self defense role is the duckbill attachments as an improvised and repeatable claymore.  Again, YMMV.


RSR...  No worries.  Not pissed, just didn't expect the discussion to go that route. 

I can't really argue with much that you have said there.  I am often asked for my opinion as to which defensive rifle would be best for a SHTF situation because of my military experiences, and I almost always direct those asking towards an AK, Vz, or SKS (or Galil if they can afford it) as I think the 7.62x39mm is the better SHTF caliber, based upon my experience in Iraq with both the M-16A2 and captured AKMs.  And when asked why not the AR or something else in 5.56 since that's what the military uses I generally give the same reasons as I did in those videos with this one HUGE addition......  Not an AR because they are SOOOO pervasive in the US.  If we were to enter a societal collapse type SHTF the rifle you picked up from the first people that tried to take what was yours would likely be an AR, so you'd have one for free!   ;D  If you didn't come upon one in that way, well there are plenty out there in armories all across America and your chances of acquiring an AR platform rifle in 5.56 in the space is orders of magnitude higher than acquiring any other style of rifle, save perhaps a .22lr from some "Prepper" that mistakenly believes that the .22lr is the only caliber they'll ever need in an SHTF.  I suppose that I do take for granted the fact that I am so familiar with the M-16 family of rifles, and that probably, mistakenly, blinds me to the need for others to be similarly familiar with those rifles. 

As for the shotgun use in a SHTF, I must disagree.  Yes its a great repeatable claymore, and yes it should not be someones individual long arm, BUT it excels against the .22lr against lots of small game, especially birds!  If I were hunting birds or rabbit I would want a shotgun, because most of them you will not see until they have been flushed and are running.  Yes there are exceptions but they are few such as squirrel, crow, and perhaps pigeon.  But that's just my opinion.
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Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2015, 02:48:32 PM »
Excepting waterfowl, I don't see the amount of powder and lead used as being worth the return for most of the "sporting game" we use shotguns for nowadays, especially when you consider the volume and weight of shells.  Granted if you're starving...  But in a survival scenario, I see most of the small game folks throw out as being easily taken w/ a 22lr or pellet gun that would spoil less of the meat...  Developed the squirrel and sparrow capability with air rifles as a kid...  And don't forget snares as even a better option if in a fixed location.  Something to be said about acquiring meat with minimal noise too, especially if you have neighbors...  (And not often discussed is that when hungry, a human's sense of smell has a substantial increase in sensitivity as well, so meat that requires cooking has substantial security considerations...)

To be clear, most Galils are 5.56, though there are some custom 7.62x39s and, though limited in military use (and there have been issues with this caliber Galils beating up receivers and bolts -- bolts only have two lugs whereas most .308 aks have 3 but reciever buffers do mitigate most of the receiver stress issues)  the 7.62 Nato/.308 guns were original IMI production as well...  Due to the cost of .308 Galil's, I'd go w/ a FAL first or Saiga second .308 for equivalent reliability/accuracy/firepower as the Galil (though they wouldn't match accuracy of the Galil sniper, but that's a separate weapon from the standard .308 Galil)...  Granted, I don't reload so personally can't afford to shoot enough .308 to become fully competent (by my standards) in a .308 semi-auto platform in a self defense rifle scenario, so that's why not a .308 despite many saying it's the "ultimate" caliber... (And .308 inside 200m or so really shows little to no gains in performance vs either/or 5.56 or 7.62x39 in almost every ballistic/penetration/etc scenario.)  For self defense weapons, if you're encountering fire beyond 200 yards, I'd think almost certainly a counter-sniper bolt action type weapon would be best...  Moreover, a semi auto .308 strikes me as best for an offensive longer range engagement type role (using range to stay beyond primary lethal range of opponent small arms (sort of like the Taliban does to US soldiers in Afghanistan), which for me would be somewhat limited need even in a SHTF type situation, and even then, I'd think it'd be an accurized DMR type weapon rather than a basic battle rifle that'd be the roughly equivalent competitor to an AR or VZ58...

The reason for the AR recommendation is so that you have a rifle you personally built for reliability and know how to maintain before you need to use it.  There are a lot of crap ARs out there, I'd like to know my own gun and not rely on someone else's weapon...  Like having a better trigger, heavy profile barrel, sights and optics that work best for me, properly and ideally assembled internals, etc.  You can pickup mags if desperate, but definitely scavenge any ammo...  I'm a reluctant AR owner afterall, but that resignation to ARs for the above reasons makes sense to me personally.  And ultimately, my wife is most confident w/ that platform, so that's what primarily drives that inclusion of that weapon in my system.  And the assembly/maintenance/operation/use lessons learned are certainly a great education for me too...

To the point, agree that an AR shouldn't be a first choice, but it's good to have for a 5.56 gun if can't afford to outfit an expensive 5.56 rifle w/ proprietary mags like a galil and want a capability in that caliber.  And I also try to have a few extra firearms beyond my immediate family needs, and for better or worse, a lot of those who are close family and friends that might need a weapon are current and former military with AR experience...  And unfortunately some of them or their significant others don't own anything more than a pistol right now...  And ARs are relatively easy to use for new shooters. 
For $600, I can build a base BCM (one of the best DI builds) or Adams Arms (affordable and reliable piston AR, one of their "blemished" sales) upper w/ a quality lower like Spikes, Anderson, or Bushmaster (AIM is running $50 delivered on bushmaster lowers right now) and a palmetto state armory lower parts kit w/ base blackhawk stock.  To do it my "premium standardization" for personal use, I can build for less than $800 per rifle which includes the cheaper geissele trigger, and upgraded grip, furniture, mag release, bad lever, charging handle, accuwedge, iron sights, etc.  Optics would be extra...

All of that said, I agree that the VZ2008s are the best military sporter weapon value right now.  They're a tremendous amount of gun for the money.  Must do to run is a minimum of $50 for the tab.  Also, stock pad +~$25.  (~$475 for a $400 gun, roughly current price.)  For my personal preference, mag release and bolt release plus another ~$120.  NEA handguard +~$250 (cheaper Mako for +$70).  So I'm at $850 on an optimized VZ58, the cheaper route on handguards is a little over $650.  Adding a different stock than the folder is at least another $100 (+$80 due to not needing the buttstock pad).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:58:51 PM by RSR »

Offline Brasky

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 11:51:45 AM »
I would take a shotgun over a pistol/rifle/carbine in any self defense situation in a home or small building.

I do agree through that shotguns are left to self defense and bird hunting.

My shtf rifle is my vz. Capable of harvesting any game in my area. The 5.56 is also capable of taking deer and bear, but is far less efficient especially with small grain FMJs and I would feel very iffy about using it on deer

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 04:04:18 PM »
 :P = guilty.

My original points were that it is more consistent to go apples vice apples.  'Milspec' VZ = $1100+ these days, and a 6920 can be had for less than $1000, and I've seen NUMEROUS deals for less than $900 lately - this is the BEST time we've ever had to buy a serious AR. 

If you much prefer 7.62X39, I'd go Milspec if I could.  Here the VZ is pricey and rare.  Most new WASRs are pretty good, and reasonably accurate.  SARs are still attainable for $600.  And, you can luck into a Norinco at a good price.  Recently an Arsenal at the LGS went for $700+.  Parts, magazines, etc. are all there in spades - especially now that Magpul is in the game in a big way.  My SA85M doesn't feel much heavier than my VZ58 and the Krebs style safety is easier to use.  Chrome lined barrels, while not absolutely necessary, are a VERY good plus.  Now that the Yugos are ubiquitous, accessories are also available.  Hard to beat the AK.  And to me at least, the AK recoil is more or of a push, and the stock more straight line - better for irons and cowitness, which is better for SHTF use.

Offline RSR

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Re: Why I chose the Vz. 58 over an AKM (Video)
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2015, 02:57:53 PM »
My problem with shotguns for home defense is primarily the issue of 1) it's really tough to account for every pellet beyond 10 yards, and 2) b/c the energy of each pellet (even at 00) is less than its equivalent diameter pistol pullet, shot placement is critical for incapacitation (as noted as one of the reasons the FBI is switching to 9mm from 40 S&W: http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/ ). 

Yes, there is an advantage in that shot is less likely to over penetrate, but not by much, and not really much difference between pistol rounds (and don't forget glaser safety slugs and the like are available and reliable in 9mm and rifle calibers too). 

But basically, you have to select birdshot for shotguns to minimize penetration to the level that two layers of drywall will stop/reduce to safe velocity indoors and that small shot size is unlikely to do incapacitating damage at that level... 

So that's why I made the decision for an adequate cartridge for human incapacitation indoors. 

For me, the best choice is a pistol caliber carbine as low muzzle blast/flash and as compact as package as a shotgun (shotguns have heavy recoil making followup shots difficult and negatively affecting accuracy and muzzle blast and flash is disorienting (diminishing the "home field" advantage), with more rounds (~30 vs 6 to 8), less likely to malfunction (short stroke semi auto, or the more common loading errors on semi auto shotguns) as well as a package that can accurately reach out to 100 yards should the need occur...  YMMV.  But that's the primary reasons why I'm so anti-shotgun for home defense -- well and that operating a shotgun well under stress requires an amount of training that's really only second to handgun.  KISS -- Keep It Simple Stupid and minimize opportunities for mistakes...  (And compact pistol carbines, especially ones with pistol grip mags have an overall length less than my arms extended with a handgun as well as are lighter than a shotgun which allows for easy one hand manipulation).  I also recommend a pistol caliber carbine as a first home defense gun for friends and family (with a pistol in the same caliber as well -- it also helps that 1000 rounds of 9mm fit into a 30 caliber ammo can too, so they have quite a bit of firepower available to them in a compact package should the need arise for prolonged self-defense).


00 buckshot, standard load patterning.

3 yards:


5 yards:


10 yards:


15 yards, two shots


20 yards:


30 yards:


40 yards:


And the article continues with pictures of the writer trying to shot a badguy that has a family member held hostage and using them in between the good guy and his shotgun: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-42-precision-shooting-with-buckshot/

Also, http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns/
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Lessons learned:
1. At close range, reduced recoil loads seem to shoot a tighter pattern. But the difference is small, i.e., 1 3/4 to 4 inches. As always, you have to aim a shotgun at close range. The patterns are tight.
2. At close range, reduced recoil loads seem to shoot a tighter pattern. But the difference is small, i.e., 1 3/4 to 4 inches. As always, you have to aim a shotgun at close range. The patterns are tight.
At moderate ranges (20 yards), the loads had an average spread of around 9 to 17 inches. This is getting big enough that, unless carefully aimed, many pellets will miss a bad guy.
3. At long ranges, even 45 yards, you will miss with more pellets that you will hit with. The question might be, ?Why would you shoot at someone at 45 yards?? Well, if he is at 45 yards and shooting at me, I will return fire. If a shotgun is all I have, I will use that. But understand that you will have a lot of missed pellets.
4. Reduced recoil loads are easier on the shoulder to shoot. But, you don?t get something for nothing. That also means that they will not have the total energy that a heavier load will have. You have to make a choice and go with it.

Buckshot in drywall: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/
*Remember that #4 buckshot is the minimum size recommended for self defense that is expected to achieve necessary penetration to incapacitate a bad guy.

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The Box O? Truth is loaded with 12 sheets of 5/8? sheetrock, backed up by a jug of water to try to ?catch? anything that might penetrate all 12 boards.

It is backed-up by a wall of bricks.
[...]
All shots were from a measured 12 feet from the muzzle to the first wall.
[...]
This is the first shot.

This load was Remington 2 3/4?, #4 Buck, 27 pellets.

It penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the 7th sheet.
[...]
I then loaded a round of Remington 2 3/4?, 00 Buck, 9 pellets.

This load penetrated 7 boards, 3 pellets went through the 8th board, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th board.

The original box of truth article testing several caliber options: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/
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First, we loaded the box with 12 sheets of 5/8 sheetrock, which is also called wallboard in some areas. Since it takes 2 sheets per wall, this is the thickness of 6 interior walls.
[...]
First, I shot it with my M-17 S&W, .22 LR HP. It penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the seventh sheet. That would be the equivalent of 3 interior walls. And that?s only a .22 pistol.
[...]
.22 Long Rifle (Wildcats) ? 4 boards and bounced off 5th board.

9MM JHP (Federal) ? 8 boards, bounced off 9th.

.45ACP (Federal Hydrashocks) ? 7 boards, bounced off 8th.

Amazingly, none expanded at all. The nose just filled up with pine.
[...]
Notice that the XM-193 is tumbling.

We pulled the sixth sheet and that?s about where it first tumbled.
[...]
Here are the two exits. Notice, again, that they were tumbling.

I shot my 16? AR with XM-193.

We don?t know how many boards it would have penetrated, as it was still moving after exiting the twelfth board.

A second test w/o pine on the front: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-4-miscellaneous-rounds-meet-the-box-o-truth/

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Started out with some ammo that Arowneragain sent me, some Glazer Blue Tip 9mm.

I shot it out of my Beretta and it went through 6 boards of drywall and dented the 7th.

This is the jacket and the BBs twere lose on the bottom of the BoT.

It put an almost 3/4? hole through the boards before stopping.

At the request of Peekay, I shot a .357 Magnum 158 grain JHP out of my 6? Colt Python.

Much to our surprise, it was stopped by the 10th board after going through 9 boards. It was fully expanded.

I was so surprised, that I did it again, but got the same results.

Who?d a thunk it? The .357 Magnum is supposed to be a big penetrator.

Tman used his Romanian SAR2, in 5.45 X 39 with Wolf ammo to shoot the box.

It went through all 12 boards, busted the water jug, but bounced off the wood in front of the bricks.

This is the last board and the spent round.

Kind of easy to see how it made the hole.

I then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try.

They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds.

This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board.
.308 and 45-70 went through all 12 wallboards but had varying effects against the backstop.

Another, later test, findings: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
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Lessons learned:

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to ?fragment? when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not. It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls. Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.
2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine. When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.
3. 00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great ?Stopping? round, but there is a price to pay. Until someone invents a ?Phaser? like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.
4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy?s vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper. Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.
5. The sun was shining, it was a lovely day, and it was fun shooting stuff.

And insulation doesn't seem to matter: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/

And another good read on "consensus on TFL seems to be that in a home defense setting, a miss with a pistol presents a greater risk to people in the next room/home than a miss with a shotgun or rifle" : http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469156
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:39:38 PM by RSR »