Author Topic: Poly(mer) want a cracker?  (Read 1984 times)

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Offline CitizenPete

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Poly(mer) want a cracker?
« on: February 18, 2015, 04:52:59 PM »
I wanted to move/continue a discussion/debate on polymer gun parts, since it looks like I will be adding plastic parts to an SBR and will probably conduct a torture test on some part to the point or even past the point where I get them to fail and destroy them.  Hopefully I can photograph or video the carnage (or lack thereof).

Hopefully this thread can act as a conduit for ongoing discussion and a future reference on the topic of plastic vs. steel gun parts.

One other reason I started this thread is that I have a peeve about inadvertently hijacking threads by switching focus and direction of the original thread post. Besides being kinda insensitive to the original poster, it makes it difficult to search and weed through threads in the future if you are trying to research topics.  I hope this is a fair assessment, and I would guess that JCW007 and other moderators might not have a problem with that statement. I could be wrong.

So... here is a post from another thread regarding polymer gun parts that was already in progress:

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Respectfully your argument is backwards in my opinion.

I listed multiple pistols I own with poly triggers.  This isn't 1950's bakelite we are talking about.  Most of these formulations of materials (such as glass filled nylon) can be far superior in wear (for the service and function they are design for) and tensile strength as compared to steel. 

As far as generational longevity I promise that you can spray polymer fire arm parts with salt water every day and subject them to a widow and offspring ignoring them to 20 years without maintenance before touching or transferring them, and there wont be a speck of rust anywhere.  My weapons collection in deep storage literally drips with MC3000.  If they had polymer back in the 1800's you would have a lot more barrel-less civil war rifles today.

Heck - what about the EVO 3 - is that trigger polymer?
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It's very possible that you're correct.  Again, admittedly, it's something I get hung up on.   That said, my firearms are much more likely to see deet and cleaning solvents that dissolve polymer than they ever are to see saltwater...  And modern firearm coatings are far superior to the parkerization and bluing of rifles of old...

Though it's an entirely separate discussion/tangent I'm not going to pursue, but would like to mention that a lot of the requirements of military weapon systems today especially in regards to cost and weight minimization, and quick change barrels/calibers (but others too) are often not aligned with the needs of the consumer/civilian/sportsmen market...  I'd be in hog heaven living exclusively with 1950s-1980s era weapon systems, provided I can give them modern outfits/upgrades...  (Though I will admit that pistols have evolved significantly since that time and would prefer a modern production all metal pistol to one of that era.) ...


My thesis is that polymer parts can not only be made to equal to metal parts, but can be made to be far superior to any steel parts.

Some of the benefits of polymer over steel I can think of:

Wont rust
Can be much lighter
Easier to maintain - don't have to oil them.
Temperature (heat) items (e.g. hand guards, covers, insulators, etc,)
Easier to clean - carbon and dirt can be more easily removed.
Finish - just about any texture or color is possible and can be made to be impervious to various solvents.
Higher tensile strength and modulus of elasticity -  wont break or crack like some metals in various circumstances.
New plastics in R&D are incorporating carbon nano structures or ceramics/glass and are now some of the most durable materials ever known to man.
Future materials and 3D printer may allow you to "print" your own parts.  You could just order the digital file and the material and make it.

I believe in may be possible that even barrels could be made from formulated nano composites, that will be impervious to heat and metal bullets and would never wear out.

FULL30 is a gun site that I subscribe to online.  Today, one of the channels posted a torture test of an AR lower and butt stock completely made from polymer. They dropped it, smashed wood with it, ran over it with a jeep, and even shot it 4 times, and it still functioned.  Having said that, It was designed from the get go as a polymer lower, and not just taking an application normally made from metal and duplicating it.

The video can be viewed here: https://www.full30.com/video/41324b93161c3953ea131b0d23ebecd0?utm_source=system&utm_medium=email&utm_content=inrange&utm_campaign=subscribers

So on this point I might agree.  Taking a VZ58 receiver, or FCG, carrier, springs, etc . and duplicating the same part in a composite might not work well.  But it doesn't it mean the part can't be "updated" to function better as a plastic.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 11:54:48 PM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline Enthusiasm

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Re: Poly(mer) want a cracker?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 10:19:04 PM »
nothing beats wood and steel in the looks and style department.
I steer away from polymer whenever possible. But it has its place.
I don't mind the polymer trigger in the D-Technics at all.
And polymer is really good if your going to be out in the weather. Hunting,scouting,hiking
And weight is a HUGE factor when choosing gear, my pocket gun is polymer framed because I lug the thing around every day, 
Plus polymer really is outperforming aluminum alloys in the handgun world. IMHO
A place for everything

Offline Brasky

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Re: Poly(mer) want a cracker?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 07:40:17 AM »
Polymer is great if it's high quality, but as more and more companies use it, more and more low-grade "plastic" appears.

Ever try taking interior panels out of a car when it is less than 20 degrees outside? How about when it is -10 degrees? They crack and break

I'm not against polymer, many polymer guns are very reliable I just prefer the heft and looks of steel.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Poly(mer) want a cracker?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 09:49:25 AM »
Polymer is great if it's high quality, but as more and more companies use it, more and more low-grade "plastic" appears.

Ever try taking interior panels out of a car when it is less than 20 degrees outside? How about when it is -10 degrees? They crack and break

I'm not against polymer, many polymer guns are very reliable I just prefer the heft and looks of steel.

I myself love the look of wood funiture on a steel rifle, but thats emotion and romantic thought - has nothing to do with practicality, cost or function. 

If I had to, I would rather hike 20 miles with a 4 pound gun rather than a 10 pound gun -- or a 2 pound plate, than a 7 pound plate in a carrier.

Are far as "as more companies use it (what is the "it" you refer to? - rayon, nylon, polyethelene, poly styrene, rubber, poly-vinyl, etc etc etc?) more low-grade platic appears".   No doubt there is a lot of applications where cost cutting drives consumer concience brands to use inexpensive plastic.  But thats a consumer choice - not a feature or characteristic of what that product could be given a higher price point. 

Similar argument for the dash cracking in the cold ... I'm doing an intelligent guess here, but Cars brands like for instance, Volvo, that are designed in countries for use in primarily cold regions wont have used material types that become brittel in the cold (never had problems with the plastics in my Subaru or Lexus either). 

Material should be fit for purpose and intended use.  Your type of arguments could easily apply to metals as well.  A Vikers water-cooled machine gun (Maxim) feed ramp assembly is housing is brass.  Some would argue that brass, being a soft metal might not be the best choice in alloy.

So would it be fair for someone to say:  "Metal is great if it's high quality, but as more and more companies use it, more and more low-grade "metal" appears."

Maybe that also holds true?

Depends on the quaility of the product and the proper design for purpose.  When it comes to firearms there are some made from metal that are total crap made from crap metals.  Wouldn't you agree?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 09:52:36 AM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Poly(mer) want a cracker?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 03:37:58 PM »
It's my opinion that all of this has been covered in regards to polymer magazines...  The conclusion there is that metal reinforcement is critical at feed lips and locking lugs -- without, polymer simply can't stand up to the abuse.  Additionally, polymer is absolutely more sensitive to temperature changes.  It cracks when cold and softens when hot.  Take a look at at g36 issues for hot, or again, the polymer magazine tests when cold.  There's all sort of info out there from Magpul's pmag feed lips spreading when loaded; hence, the "dust cover" to relieve pressure as well as various magazines decomposing when exposed to deet, etc.

And take a look at the best of polymer mags -- glock mags are metal lined, best of European AK polymer mags have metal reinforced lockign tabs and feed lips, lancer l5 mags have the same for ARs.  Etc. Etc.  Polymer by itself is inadequate.  The interplay between polymer and metals is where optimal durability seems to occur.

The sl8 to g36 conversions are also a great learning opportunity as well -- and once cut, they have to use metal for reinforcement as once cut polymer can't be molecularly welded back to original strength like metals: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/15/yourself-hk-g36-rifle/

For polymer to be overall superior, the item must be:
1) designed from the start for polymer -- for polymer to have the same strength it absolutely needs more volume of material
2) not subject to severe temperatures -- plastics and plastic based polymers, just like glass, are "squishy" substances that are not completely either a liquid or a solid.  Accordingly, they're much more sensitive to heat.  Fibers such as fiberglass and other internal structures are often used to help strengthen, but they'll never 100% overcome the drawbacks of the physics of the basic polymer...  Generally, makers will either bias towards strength/solid (also more fragile) or bouncy/liquid (less fragile but also less stable).  Both have drawbacks/benefits... 
3) Not be subject to severe stresses -- take a look at the Bushmaster carbon AR uppers and all the trouble they had with extremely dangerously breaking apart during firing...

So there are absolutely places where polymer can be used, but it's a tradeoff.

The primary gains from polymer are:
1) Ease/cost of manufacturing (substantially reducing costs and time), especially in regards to rapid R&D (even more so in the age of 3D printing -- polymer in weapons is sort of the major advancement that CAD -- computer aided design -- was for all types of manufacturing and CNC machining 20 or 30 years ago), though the materials and machining costs are reduced rapidly as well (polymers wear out metal machining at a much, much slower rate than does machining metals where specs need checked with much greater frequency)
2) Less weight -- lighter than steel, not lighter aluminum
3) Moisture ambivalent for the most part (I'd argue all guns will have metal in them, so the gains in this department are limited)


What I don't like about polymer are that unlike metals:
-you often don't see the item is failing/degrading until it cracks
-it simply can't take all the same abuse as metal and is much harder to repair when it fails -- you can beat dents out of metal mags/stamped receivers and reweld most types of metal to restore to 100% original strength and function...  When polymer goes similiarly it's trash -- but softer polymers are good as recoil buffers to protect strong receivers from shock and external receivers to protect internal linings/stamped metal from dents, etc...
-metal engaging with polymer will more rapidly wear out polymer than equivalent metal -- guide rods w/ metal slides, polymer AR uppers with steel bolts, etc...
-generally it's occupying more space to accomplish the same function (and greater volume means more material means less weight savings -- the 5.56 Bren mags are larger than 7.62x39 VZ58 mags and weigh more for instance, one of the major complaints of that weapon system)

The parts I tend to replace with metal are anything related to fcg (believe I get more tactile feedback/vibrations from metal fcg parts than I do from polymer) or weapon ignition (the beretta storm carbines have polymer hammers and a bunch of other exceptionally important components in polymer -- to me this is simply beyond belief).  And on pistols, I also replace guide rods with stainless steel ones whenever they come w/ polymer...
(I should also note that polymer by its very nature, is more reliable the less stresses being put on it.  So while it may well work great with pistols and other guns firing the same ammo, when you put it in a rifle caliber weapon without redesigning the weapon's gas system to minimize recoil, bolt carrier, and other forces to a level that's coherent w/ polymer, failures will occur...

Lastly, I'll add the -- military and civilian firearms requirements are divergent.  Due to field conditions of militaries, there's most definitely something to be said for polymer to entirely replace wood (days or weeks in jungles/swamps vs a half day when it's drizzling while sitting in an open hunting stand) -- there's less to be said for replacement of metal except for specific AOs like at sea, etc, where you are best served to minimize metal (but metal encased by polymer is a great protection/strenth option as well -- and modern metal coatings are so much better than the limited bluing, parkerization, chrome, paint, and stainless options available just a generation ago -- nanotech and similar that have benefitted polymer have benefitted metal coatings and metal alloys as well).  For sportsmen, a wood stock that's glass bedded will meet 99% of your requirements satisfactorily, and since you don't have to carry several hundred rounds of ammo as well as any kit or food to sustain yourself for a certain number of days in the field w/o resupply, the few ounces in weight increase w/ wood over polymer on your rifle are negligible...  And you can configure/balance your weapon too so that any add'l wood weight does not substantially affect pointing/target acquisition speed...

Again, the modern military rifle acquisition process has requirements of weight minimization and quick change multiple caliber capable with also a very strong bias to the cheapest weapon option...  Accordingly, that's why from sidearms to rifles, polymer has dominated new weapons development as that's the only way weapons manufacturers could make a weapon that would be at a price point for mass adoption and armament  -- from R&D to production.  The weight tradeoffs you can see w/ many of the latest generation military rifles have lightweight/thin profile barrels, which when hot completely lose their capability for accurate fire as well as severely restricts the weapon's capability for extended full auto fire... 

In the consumer market, everyone's requirements will differ, so I'd encourage you to do your homework and define what those requirements are first (and then spec out your needs with items available on the market) before assuming that a b/c some military/unit acquired it then that's the best there is (realize almost all military acquisitions are decision by committee with compromises that more often than not degrade the initial objectives of a given weapon system in the name of compromise/to meet requirements of chain of command staff who have never been in the field and budgetary folks both within the military and in gov't budgetary appropriators -- take a look at the F35 boondoggle for instance) -- b/c often decisions/configurations optimized for others won't be in line w/ your needs...  Define your needs and purchase for your needs, don't copycat.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:06:33 PM by RSR »