Seating Depth and Black N Blue Bullets

[tdogg]

Folks,

I purchased sample packs from Black N Blue bullets a while ago (2014).  I did some ladder loads and had decent results.

Last Black Friday I pulled the trigger on some of bulk packs, 2 in 200gr SWC 45 ACP and 1 in 125gr RN 9mm.  Due to life and moving I'm just getting around to starting to load them.  To my surprise both bullets are different than the sample pack bullets I originally tested.  The 200gr SWC is actually a better shape and has a more pronounced shoulder.  The 125gr RN is shorter and has a longer bearing surface.  This doesn't bode well in a short throat CZ.

Sample Pack 125gr Bullet Data:
Length: 0.595 inch
Push Test OAL:  1.085 inch
Tested OAL: 1.075 inch
Seating Depth: 0.274 inch
4gr equals ~133 power factor

New 125gr Bullet Data:
Length: 0.575 inch
Push Test OAL: 1.045 inch
Proposed Testing OAL: 1.035 inch
Proposed Seating Depth: 0.294 inch

So my question is really around seating depth, how deep is too deep?  Based on the Push test data I am not up against the thicker case web (about .03 inches off) in the 9mm case.  But these bullets would seat .02 inches deeper than the tested samples and I'm using a relatively fast powder (CSB-5).

I've got a chrono and can work up some loads but should I even try?  Should I contact Black N Blue and see what they can do?  Am I going to run into feeding issues with such a short OAL?

I guess I?m a little disappointed as I got a sample pack to test and verify that the bullets would work in the CZ?s and when I ordered bulk they are different.  Granted I ordered the sample packs about Dec 2014 and ordered the bulk in Nov 2015.  Is that too much to time between orders to complain?

Thoughts?
Toby

[Wobbly]

1.035" is very, very short. It may work, it may not. No one can answer your questions unless they are already using those bullets.

I'd contact the seller.

 

[IDescribe]

I've loaded many 147 grain bullets that deep or a little deeper.  So you can load 125 that deep, but you need to work the load up from scratch.  Full ladder.  Then the other point is whether or not they feed.  I will check when I get home, but I think I've loaded 125 RN as short as 1.09.

[tdogg]

I contacted Anthony at Black N Blue bullets.  He stated that the mold he was using (from Hardline) wore out last year and they went out of business.  The new mold is from Magma and the nose profile is different.  He stated to give them a try and if they don't work out we could discuss options.  So at least he is willing to make it right.

I'll load up some development rounds and see where I'm at with the case volume.  If I'm not comfortable with the charge density/case volume I won't shoot them.  I definitely don't want to be running compressed 9mm loads with the fast CSB-5 powder.

If I have the case volume and I'm able to get the 130 power factor needed, then I will load up a bunch to test for feeding issues.

Cheers,
Toby

[IDescribe]

When you are considering "compressed" loads, factor in the fluffiness of the powder as it sits in the case.  If there's a lot of space there occupied by air, a "compressed load" may not be all that compressed.  It's just firmly held in place, and such loads can result in super consistent burns that lend themselves to precision from one shot to the next.  It can be a good thing.  My most accurate loads to date have been with American Select, which is exactly that type of powder.  Solo 1000 is the same way, and produced exceptionally accurate rounds for me.  Some rifle loads actually call for compressed loads, so basically it's not a situatuation where compressed automatically equals "dangerous".  Without a chrono, I wouldn't tell you to just go for it.  But if you have a chrono and work up ladders from a starting load, you can do this safely. 

[tdogg]

Well I loaded up 10 of each at 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4gr using 1.04 inch OAL.  Anything past 3.4 grains will start compressing the powder.  Before loading any compressed loads I thought it best to chrono the starting loads.  I want to see a nice linear progression before I start compressing.  I also want to see if the loads feed and cycle properly.

Any guesses at to what my velocity will be at 3.4 grains?  The previous bullet ran about 1065 fps at 4 grains.  The new bullet was seated 0.015 inch deeper.

ID,

CSB-5 is a fairly fluffy disk powder.  It is also fairly fast comparable to Titegroup/Red Dot.  There isn't any real load data aside from what has been tested here on this forum.  I agree that a higher charge density is generally best for uniform burn.  We'll see where this starting data ends up.

Cheers,
Toby

Edit:  Updated top charge from 3.6 to 3.4, oops!

[IDescribe]

Any guesses at to what my velocity will be at 3.6 grains? 

1015 feet/sec

[tdogg]

Got out and shot them today.  They all fed and shot fine.  I didn't feel or see any signs of pressure.

3gr, velocity 924 fps
3.2gr, velocity 956 fps
3.4gr, velocity 993 fps

So to make power factor I'm going to have to compress the powder.  I don't know if that is a good idea.  The only load data I've found for this powder doesn't have the OAL tested.  It does go to 3.5 gr but that doesn't mean anything at this seating depth.

I think I'm going to contact Black N Blue to see if he has something different to try.

Cheers,
Toby

[IDescribe]

Bro, load the 3.5 and 3.6 and chrono.  You're fine.

[tdogg]

I'm just worried that I'll get a load that shoots and makes min pf but they will cause feeding issues at this oal.

They are pretty short and the only way to find out is to shoot a bunch.  At that point I might not be able to exchange them.

Anyone else shoot at this oal (1.04)?

Cheers,
Toby

[Wobbly]

All the Berry FP's load in the 1.06" range and do OK. I have loaded some 355 Sig bullets at 0.990" and they seem to do OK, but it was only a handful. Like you, I worried and returned them.

[tdogg]

Just wanted to update this thread. 

Tony from Black N Blue Bullets was very fast to respond and offered to replace them right away.  He didn't have another bullet option that (on paper) would work in my SP-01 (aside from going with a 115gr option).  After several communications, he agreed to  make them with the same (retired) mold that was used when I ordered the sample pack.  I'm assuming it isn't as efficient to use as the new mold and that is why it was retired (not worn out).  He indicated it would take much longer to make them.

I received the bullets yesterday and did a push test with them.  They push test a little longer than the sample bullets at 1.08 inches (less 0.01 inch for clearance).  My load development shows that with CSB-5 at 1.075 inch OAL and 3.8 grains I'm at 1050 fps (131 pf).  This is just where I want to be for power factor safety.  At this OAL and this bullet length I'm at a seating depth of 0.256 inches and that isn't compressed with CSB-5.

The new bullets came in a new color, zombie lime green.  It is very uniform and smooth.  I have a picture of them but Photobucket is down.

I'm very happy with the customer service that Tony provided and I will purchase from him again (maybe not for the 9mm).  I shoot his 200 gr SWC bullets really well out of my 97BD.

Cheers,
Toby