Reduced the Hammer Hooks

[Winkel]

I posted this in another thread Sunday but thought I'd share it here.  For those wanting to take that next step in tuning, here's my story.  Please keep in mind, I fully expected to buy a replacement hammer if I messed this up.  As it turned out, it made a remarkable difference.

I have a 15" steel target set up at 50 yards behind my house.  I can shoot from my deck which is nice since I can step out and get some practice in even when the weather bad.  Today it was in the teens with winds at around 15 to 20.  Man, it was cold.

With my P-09, I can land about 60% of my shots on it, off hand.  With my P-07, I couldn't seem to hit it unless I was resting on my shooting board.  I know the gun is on but I was moving it too much when pressing the trigger.

I've done a lot of smoothing to the P-09 so the trigger is better.

Today, I did some additional work on the P-07.  Disclaimer: I am not a gunsmith and I don't recommend doing this unless you are prepared to buy some replacement parts.

The step on the hammer that the sear seats in is about 0.020".  I used a fine diamond file and removed about 0.007" of this step.  I've done all the other requisite smoothing and polishing on this gun hadn't touched the hammer yet.  I verified that the lifter was moving the firing pin block with the ole pencil in the barrel test, all good.

The trigger travel is greatly improved.  Now, I can shoot the P-07 almost as good as the P-09. 

Again, I don't recommend doing this but it made a big difference in my ability to accurately shoot this gun.  Had I gone too far, I'd be ordering a new hammer tonight. 

Just thought I'd pass this along.

Winkel

[copemech]

Good on you! Poor mans race hammer!

Although my 07 and 09 are set up differently, with the 09(race hammer) for the range and longer distance, and the 07 for HD/SD, rapid fire drills and such and I will pull right through the added creep and reduced sensitivity of the stock hammer sear, I may have to dig out the stock hammer out of the 09 to play with and throw it into the 07.

Do not want it over sensitive, but like you, I think .005-.007 may be just enough to help without going nuts.

I will need to figure out just how I need to set this up to hold and measure to get a good cut on it. What did you use?

And as long as your function is good, I would not worry too much. A timing issue should show up immediately I would think.

[M1A4ME]

Maybe I did my P09 9MM wrong, but I removed the metal from the sear, not the hammer. 

The sear is cheaper to replace (if you take too much metal off).

I thought, in looking at the parts and how they engage, it would accomplish the same goal.

The trigger on my P09 is now the same as that really nice (from the factory) trigger on my old DUTY P07 .40 S&W.

I have the slack (loose trigger with no resistance to rearward movement), a very slight stop, a very small further rearward movement (which I think is the trigger bar raising the firing pin safety block out of the way of the firing pin), then another slight, but easier to feel than the first stop.  At that second stop, any further rearward movement gives me the bang that I've been pulling the trigger to get.

On both pistols I no longer consciously notice the rearward trigger movement till I get to the second stop.  I mean just like a rifle, or my 1911s, I don't think about each stage of the trigger's rearward movement, my trigger finger takes over and moves the trigger rearward till I get to the second stop.  The nice groups come from a combination of sight alignment with the target (which isn't so easy these days as I remember it used to be) and that next little pull of the trigger finger.

[Winkel]

Good on you! Poor mans race hammer!

Although my 07 and 09 are set up differently, with the 09(race hammer) for the range and longer distance, and the 07 for HD/SD, rapid fire drills and such and I will pull right through the added creep and reduced sensitivity of the stock hammer sear, I may have to dig out the stock hammer out of the 09 to play with and throw it into the 07.

Do not want it over sensitive, but like you, I think .005-.007 may be just enough to help without going nuts.

I will need to figure out just how I need to set this up to hold and measure to get a good cut on it. What did you use?

And as long as your function is good, I would not worry too much. A timing issue should show up immediately I would think.

Cope,
I have a good Wilton vise in my 'tinker' room with smooth jaws.  I clamped the hammer in the vise with the area to be reduced sticking up proud by about 0.010".  I used a fine diamond file and some penetrating oil and simply laid the file flat across the top of it.  I filed on it until I was hitting squarely on both vise jaws. 
It turned out surprisingly square.  I thought about going just a touch farther, but I wanted to make sure I didn't lose the firing block plunger travel. 

Considering I couldn't hit my 15" target before the adjustment, and I could hit it fairly consistently afterward, I thought I'd leave well enough alone for now. 

I've ordered the reduced power firing pin block spring which I think will help a little more but I'm pretty pleased with it now. 

Since you have the 'spare' hammer, I'd give it a shot.  You can always buy a replacement!

Let us know how it turns out!
Winkel

[copemech]

Maybe I did my P09 9MM wrong, but I removed the metal from the sear, not the hammer. 

The sear is cheaper to replace (if you take too much metal off).

I thought, in looking at the parts and how they engage, it would accomplish the same goal.

The trigger on my P09 is now the same as that really nice (from the factory) trigger on my old DUTY P07 .40 S&W.

I have the slack (loose trigger with no resistance to rearward movement), a very slight stop, a very small further rearward movement (which I think is the trigger bar raising the firing pin safety block out of the way of the firing pin), then another slight, but easier to feel than the first stop.  At that second stop, any further rearward movement gives me the bang that I've been pulling the trigger to get.

On both pistols I no longer consciously notice the rearward trigger movement till I get to the second stop.  I mean just like a rifle, or my 1911s, I don't think about each stage of the trigger's rearward movement, my trigger finger takes over and moves the trigger rearward till I get to the second stop.  The nice groups come from a combination of sight alignment with the target (which isn't so easy these days as I remember it used to be) and that next little pull of the trigger finger.

Wrong end to reduce creep. But that is not for everyone.

[copemech]

Good on you! Poor mans race hammer!

Although my 07 and 09 are set up differently, with the 09(race hammer) for the range and longer distance, and the 07 for HD/SD, rapid fire drills and such and I will pull right through the added creep and reduced sensitivity of the stock hammer sear, I may have to dig out the stock hammer out of the 09 to play with and throw it into the 07.

Do not want it over sensitive, but like you, I think .005-.007 may be just enough to help without going nuts.

I will need to figure out just how I need to set this up to hold and measure to get a good cut on it. What did you use?

And as long as your function is good, I would not worry too much. A timing issue should show up immediately I would think.

Cope,
I have a good Wilton vise in my 'tinker' room with smooth jaws.  I clamped the hammer in the vise with the area to be reduced sticking up proud by about 0.010".  I used a fine diamond file and some penetrating oil and simply laid the file flat across the top of it.  I filed on it until I was hitting squarely on both vise jaws. 
It turned out surprisingly square.  I thought about going just a touch farther, but I wanted to make sure I didn't lose the firing block plunger travel. 

Considering I couldn't hit my 15" target before the adjustment, and I could hit it fairly consistently afterward, I thought I'd leave well enough alone for now. 

I've ordered the reduced power firing pin block spring which I think will help a little more but I'm pretty pleased with it now. 

Since you have the 'spare' hammer, I'd give it a shot.  You can always buy a replacement!

Let us know how it turns out!
Winkel

Cool beans, just get it where you like it. I do not want to go too light on a SD/HD gun. You need some tactile feedback!

As example, on my P01, the trigger with all the CGW garb was about 2.8 lbs and quick! I had to install a heavy FPB spring to give me a little more feedback before the break! Brought it back over 3.

[M1A4ME]

The hammer and sear hook together to hold the hammer in place when cocked.

The sear has to move to release the hammer.

All I can say is stoning my sear reduced the distance the trigger had to travel (once the firing pin block was moved out of the way) to release the hammer.

The trigger is better.  About like my P07 now.

[Winkel]

Also, my adjustment didn't lighten the pull any, it just made it much more crisp.  Much less creep in the trigger now. 

The best thing was that it actually improved my ability to accurately shoot the gun.

[copemech]

The hammer and sear hook together to hold the hammer in place when cocked.

The sear has to move to release the hammer.

All I can say is stoning my sear reduced the distance the trigger had to travel (once the firing pin block was moved out of the way) to release the hammer.

The trigger is better.  About like my P07 now.

Yes they do.

Yes it does.

But think about this for a second. The distance the sear must move to release the hammer is equal to the depth of the cut in the hammer or the engagement distance of the sear where the two faces meet. If you changed the thickness of the sear, it still plops down to the bottom of the cut in the hammer and must move up the same distance to clear it. Changing the face angle can effect break point of release, yet be dangerous as the sear may not lock into the hammer securely.

Changing the sear thickness may change the position of the actual trigger lever within its stroke, and depending upon all the angles, could give a bit more lever advantage over the travel of the sear I suppose.

Winkle is also correct in that the change he made will not within itself change the pull weight of the trigger, only the distance.

However, our perceived feel is based upon the work we do to pull the trigger. W=FxD or work equals force times the distance. Get on the short side of that distance part and even a 5# trigger can feel really light!

[BrazeauRacing]

I installed a CZ-UB competition hammer in my P-07, but moved it over to my P-09 when I got it.  Since I had an extra factory hammer laying around from the P-09, I decided to reduce the hammer hooks on my P-07 factory hammer.  To be honest, I cannot tell a difference between the modified factory hammer and the competition hammer.  I'm sure there is a slight difference, but not enough for my finger to notice when the buzzer goes off. 

Factory P-09 hammer (left)... modified factory P-07 hammer (middle)... and CZ-UB competition P-series hammer (right)...

[copemech]

Sweet example. 

Notice how the hammers rub on the left side.

[Winkel]

The hammer and sear hook together to hold the hammer in place when cocked.

The sear has to move to release the hammer.

All I can say is stoning my sear reduced the distance the trigger had to travel (once the firing pin block was moved out of the way) to release the hammer.

The trigger is better.  About like my P07 now.

I could see how this could help.  I've done a bit more tuning on my P-09 than my P-07.  On the P-09, I did more stoning and polishing on the sear to begin with.  I changed the angle slightly and just broke the bottom edge of the sear so it would release a tiny bit sooner.  I verified that I still have the slightest rearward travel of the hammer before it falls.  It's barely noticeable but still cams back just a little.  After that, I added the increase power sear spring just to keep the trigger break more 'crisp'.  That modification did appear to reduce the trigger travel a little.  I shortened the hammer hooks on that one as well but only about 0.005".  The trigger on my P-09 is better than the P-07 but I plan on concealed carrying the 7 one day so I didn't want to go too drastic. 

In all, I'm very pleased with both of them now.  I've also done the trigger bar (polished and deburred), bent down the trigger bar spring, removed the burrs from the ejector and added the extended firing pin and a 15 lb hammer spring (P-09).  Now, I'm just going to shoot the heck out of both of them.
Happy tuning!
Winkel

[copemech]

Well, as all this got me excited again about doing the 07 in a moderate fashion, my best measures using a digital caliper showed a sear height of .028 on the stock hammer.

So, I jigged mine up in the vice and used a .015 feeler guage as a guide to prevent overdoing it and keeping things straight and level, just taking the top flat flush with the feeler.

Measures at .013 now from the opposite side of it, essentially cut in half!

Reassembly and function test fine, with FPB disengage early in the movement.

Feel is great, and very short much like my race hammer, yet not quite as sensitive.

I changed no angles.

I will test it at the range tomorrow. And as for ref. I think the race hammer is going to come in at less than .010 sear height.

Do not attempt this at home!

 

[Winkel]

Well, as all this got me excited again about doing the 07 in a moderate fashion, my best measures using a digital caliper showed a sear height of .028 on the stock hammer.

So, I jigged mine up in the vice and used a .015 feeler guage as a guide to prevent overdoing it and keeping things straight and level, just taking the top flat flush with the feeler.

Measures at .013 now from the opposite side of it, essentially cut in half!

Reassembly and function test fine, with FPB disengage early in the movement.

Feel is great, and very short much like my race hammer, yet not quite as sensitive.

I changed no angles.

I will test it at the range tomorrow. And as for ref. I think the race hammer is going to come in at less than .010 sear height.

Do not attempt this at home!

Excellent!  It's satisfying to make a change that makes such a noticeable improvement!  Change the angle on that sear and it will improve things even more.  I ALWAYS make sure I have just the slightest camming of the hammer backwards before it falls.
Winkel