P-07 and P-09 trade-offs

[Joe L]

I've only put around 1k rounds through a P-07 and have well over 10k through a P-09.  I own two P-09's, one set up with a red dot and one with open sights. 

1.  All three pistols are excellent mechanically, as far as the barrel lock up and slide fit.  I have demonstrated with many videos how well each gun can be shot at 25/50/100 yards and at 200 yards for the P-09.   I don't own and have not shot anything that provides higher accuracy than the P-09, including one very expensive SIG X5. 

2.  Ergonomically, the P-09 and P-07 are identical from a grip and trigger reach standpoint.  The grip sides are too flat and the reach is too short for me for a competition gun, but I have addressed that on each one with some epoxy and/or Sugru.  This is a personal need, not necessary for most shooters, and it not a criticism at all.

3.  The pistols are light, but pose minimal recoil control challenges, I suppose due to the high grip and low bore axis plus longer lock time than on most guns.  They are very controllable in 9mm for their weight. 

4.  Now for the differences.  The P-09 is a full size gun, excellent for a range or house gun, but not for concealed carry, at least for me.  The P-07 is MUCH more concealable, without feeling like you are holding it with two fingers.  To me, the P-07 is about as large a pistol as I would consider for a concealed carry gun.  For that purpose, it has advantages over the P-09. 

5.  I have not open-carried a handgun.  I'm not an LEO or military person.  I assume the P-09 would work great for an open carry gun where the size wasn't a disadvantage.  I would think the P-07 would be more comfortable while driving, but I don't know. 

6.  Accuracy for a defensive gun--Both are "accurate".  I like the additional weight and longer sight radius of the P-09 over the P-07.  But I like the weight and the sight radius of a 97 over a 75B or P-09.  I don't like carrying a loaded 97 around at all.  There are compromises--weight and size versus sight radius and recoil control. 

7.  I can shoot a P-07 just fine.  The small size gun does not have a mechanical accuracy disadvantage at defensive distances, if one has time to aim the gun between shots, in my opinion.  This was my biggest concern when I first considered buying a P-07 after three years with the P-09.  Could the P-07 even come close to being as good a shooter as the P-09???  The answer for me, after shooting the P-07 in exactly the same scenarios as the P-09 (except at 200 yards), is that the accuracy is excellent, only the weight and sight radius are reduced.  The mechanical design of the P-07, combined with some exceptional manufacturing tolerances, can provide exceptional accuracy, just like the P-09. 

8.  The P-07 is, to me, a "P09 Lite".  And it doesn't get any better than that. 

Joe       

[AKToday]

Thanks for info.     I don't shoot a lot of pistols , but have a new P-09 ordered.    I shoot a lot of rifles, so I need some more practice on pistols when I get my P-09.    I saw you talking about shooting 25/50/100 ---- 200yds,   good god, my old eyes have enough trouble at 25 yds using a rifle without optics !!!!!!

[robert1804]

 Great post there, Joe! I just bought a P-09 and agree with you about the grip being flat on the sides. Also agree that it's very controllable for its weight. I have a few full size 9mm all metal pistols and wanted to try a full size 9mm poly framed gun . I had an M&P FS 9mm that had (for me) excellent ergos but only fair accuracy. Traded that one for an M&P 45 mid size, a big improvement in accuracy. I have a Sig P320 C and could have bought a full size kit for it but I decided to try a new P-09 for not too much more money.

 So far, with 300 rounds through it, this P-09 seems almost as accurate as my best 9mm. That is an STI Trojan 5". Got a bunch of ammo combinations loaded today and will take both these two guns to the range this week. This P-09 has the shortest barrel throat of all my 9mm's, even a few thou shorter than my 75 B. The STI has by far the longest throat. It'll be interesting if I can find a load that works well in both pistols.

[Tok36]

Good thread. I am curious Joe, have you removed and flattened out the trigger bars on all of you P series CZs. What do you think of the DA of the P-series?

[Joe L]

Good thread. I am curious Joe, have you removed and flattened out the trigger bars on all of you P series CZs. What do you think of the DA of the P-series?

Tok36--The P series triggers are very hard and brittle.  I don't think it can be flattened.  All I have done is add epoxy to the front side, let it dry, then shape it slightly with a file.  The DA pull with CGW parts is excellent, in my opinion.  From the factory, not as good as a SIG P-226, for example.  My reference is the SIG, since I have several and am quite happy with them, after a little work and lighter springs.  I may put a roller or something in the P-07 to smooth out the DA pull just a little more.  Both of my P-09s have the CGW parts and the DA as well as SA pull are excellent.  All I've done to the P-07 if put in a CGW hammer.  That fixed the single action pull perfectly, eliminating the scratchy pull of the factory hammer.  It drove me nuts at first.  Much worse than on my particular P-09s, from the factory.  There seems to be some variation in the trigger feel among various samples of the pistols from the factory. 

Joe

[Tok36]

Good thread. I am curious Joe, have you removed and flattened out the trigger bars on all of you P series CZs. What do you think of the DA of the P-series?

Tok36--The P series triggers are very hard and brittle.  I don't think it can be flattened.  All I have done is add epoxy to the front side, let it dry, then shape it slightly with a file.  The DA pull with CGW parts is excellent, in my opinion.  From the factory, not as good as a SIG P-226, for example.  My reference is the SIG, since I have several and am quite happy with them, after a little work and lighter springs.  I may put a roller or something in the P-07 to smooth out the DA pull just a little more.  Both of my P-09s have the CGW parts and the DA as well as SA pull are excellent.  All I've done to the P-07 if put in a CGW hammer.  That fixed the single action pull perfectly, eliminating the scratchy pull of the factory hammer.  It drove me nuts at first.  Much worse than on my particular P-09s, from the factory.  There seems to be some variation in the trigger feel among various samples of the pistols from the factory. 

Joe

I agree about the variance in triggers from the factory, it seams to be present in the 75s as well from what i have seen. Interesting that you are happy with the 07 after the hammer upgrade alone. The hammer really is the hart of the upgrades.

Have you removed the Trigger Bar from your P series and sanded them to flatten out the part of the trigger bar that contacts the inside of the frame? It was one of the mods mentioned in shmekys P series upgrade guide. I have not done this yet but i am about too, the DA of my 09 can still benefit from improvement. Hopefully this reduces the stacking.

Another thing i have noticed recently about my 09 is that during the SA pull after the sear is taken up, there is a noticeable amount of "Flex" in the trigger or trigger system before the break. I do not see this in my 75s. Have you noticed this, if so what do you believe the source of this flex is?

[Joe L]

Tok, I didn't polish very much, just ran the trigger bar across a stone enough to remove any high spots, but there weren't any really rough spots.  I spent some time on the end if the trigger bar spring and on the groove it rides in.  That helped the feel as much as anything. 

I don't understand much about your "flex" question.  Can't help you there. 

The P series trigger feels different from the 75 and 97 triggers.  Not too bad, just different.  That said, I learned to like the 9mm P series triggers just fine, as long as I wasn't shooting the Kadet on a CGW 75B frame on the same outing.  That is another reason why I switched from the P-09 to the 97--easier to make the transition from rimfire to centerfire matches on the same day. 

All I need is 20-30 rounds with the P series and I can shoot it just fine again.  Same for the 97, I can pick it up, run 20 rounds through it, and I'm back where I was when I was shooting it regularly.  I have to relearn how much trigger prep I can have, and how to grip the gun and place my trigger finger.  Then I have to get my eyesight and trigger movement matched up with the wobble.  It's all mental.  All the CZ pistols are fine, just different. 

Joe

[Tok36]

Thank you for the tip on the trigger bar spring and grove, i cannot remember how well i hit that area that last time i had my 09 apart.

Let me try to better explain the flex i mentioned. Lets suppose there are two pistols both running a CGW comp hammers, a 75 and an 09.  With a CZ75 in SA mode, once i have pulled trough any pre-travel and the trigger bar has taken up the sear leg. As i continue to pull the trigger i may encounter a little creep, this is the product of the sears movement slipping past the hammer hooks that lats bit. So the sear starts moving rite as i pull the trigger.

With the P-09 rather then encountering creep or no creep where the hammer just drops, i find that i pull through a bit of flex before the sear finely moves and the hammer drops. I assume this is the trigger alone bending a bit or the trigger and other parts shifting before enough force is applied to the sear for it to move upward. For clarity once i installed the comp hammer in my P-09 the creep was removed entirely but there is still movement in the trigger before the sear moves. I have found it hard to improve my shooting with the P-09 because of this trigger dynamic as well as the pistols weight and a few other things that you seam to have encountered, like grip width and SA length of pull. I am glad i picked up a 09, learning to shoot a lighter pistol than a 75 is something i have enjoyed.

On another note. A quote from your above post. "Then I have to get my eyesight and trigger movement matched up with the wobble." I believe i get the general gist of this statement, but it may be a while before i have a solid understanding of it. I need more rounds down range, allot of rounds...

Edit: after reexamining the issue and doing a little looking, i believe i may have some hammer camming. Stating that the steel trigger its self was flexing was was silly on my part, it sure did feel like it though.

[tekarra]

Good comparison between the pistols, thanks.