Author Topic: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?  (Read 15853 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Atl_Matt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« on: June 05, 2016, 04:53:00 PM »
So I stumbled across the 58 recently and the more I read, the more interested I get. Basically, I'm a collector of military weapons - mostly class 3 stuff - enjoy owning them and shooting them - mostly at my range.

This would be for that type of use - 100-200 rounds - basically just fun. Got AK's - nice Krink and an Arsenal 107 CR and my only rule is no new calibers so so I'd stay with 7.62x39 which I like better with a short barrel vs 223. I'm certain a model with a longer barrel is more generally useful - less blast, bit more accurate, better forend mounting options but the Compact really caught my eye - something different - smaller than the Krink.

Just looking for any final tips before I pull the trigger. One of you sent some links to Gunbroker - same price as importer. Any insight would be truly appreciated. Best, Matt

Offline Horse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • RS Regulate
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 11:09:28 PM »
Get one.  They rock!
Owner: RSRegulate.com

Offline Atl_Matt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 11:31:40 PM »
Thanks horse - somewhere there was probably a part of me hoping you guys would save me some money and tell me to steer clear. No such luck I guess. Thanks!!

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 12:03:22 AM »
Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics at one point had a video on youtube, now deleted or made private, on the Krink and how he doesn't recommend less than 10" barrels due to insufficient penetration.  Rifle Dynamics' website listing for the Yugo Krink goes into that at least briefly.

In the video, he was basically clearing some kind of misfire or jam out of a Romanian or similar 7.62x39 Krink  w/ 8" barrel.  The weapon was on his tailgate of a newer model truck (thinner sheet metal) and somehow fired towards the cab.  He was expecting all sorts of damage to the cab and engine compartment too...  In brief, the round penetrated his bed steel in full, but just dented the cab steel and didn't penetrate into the cab. 
Since a lot of Rifle Dynamics customers at the time were private military contractors in the Middle East (this video was at least 4 years old and I believe older), Fuller decided in good conscience and further testing that the 10" Yugo Krink barrel is the shortest that makes sense and he could accordingly sell in 7.62x39.  The smaller diameter 5.45x39 he stated did have sufficient penetration out of an 8" barrel to be serviceable.

If you want to go w/ a shorter barrel than 10" -- IMO, you're better suited w/ something in 300 blk or 9mm (or other pistol).  The pistol powders are designed to burn quickly which mitigates muzzle blast and flash, which put simply is the physical manifestation of a substantial amount of wasted energy and ballistic potential (should you have shot from a longer barrel)...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 12:05:08 AM by RSR »

Offline Atl_Matt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2016, 05:57:43 PM »
Thanks RSR - I can't disagree with anything you've written - from a pragmatic defense / use standpoint, the shorter barrel tends to turn allot of the 7.62x39 round's potential into a big blast and fireball.

The reality is that I don't view this as a serious defensive weapon (though it certainly could do the job at need if it proves reliable) and I certainly don't view it as something I'd use to penetrate barriers - honestly I wouldn't be using a 556 round either out of any length barrel - that's where 308 kind of shines.

The CZ would be simply a range gun and novelty platform that fires a low-cost round I tend to prefer (at least over 223) when coming out of shorter barrels. Honestly, I've got more serious tools than hands and friends to use them - MP5/93/G3/HK23 F/A platforms, M16 (F/A) and AR15's galore, AK's, SCAR-H, etc. If I felt seriously concerned for my health, I wouldn't be grabbing a VZ 58 S/A with a very short barrel, marginal ergo (front grip), no suppressor and limited optics options.

As I said in my original post, this is just for fun. All that said, you made some very strong points for anyone considering a short-barrel rifle, especially in a tactical or defense setting. Many thanks, Matt.

Offline Horse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • RS Regulate
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 09:58:30 PM »
Mine is a 12" carbine from Czechpointusa, it's brutally loud and shoots 3 foot flames sideways with no can, but it's my current favorite rifle bar none. 

Owner: RSRegulate.com

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2016, 01:44:42 AM »
Thanks RSR - I can't disagree with anything you've written - from a pragmatic defense / use standpoint, the shorter barrel tends to turn allot of the 7.62x39 round's potential into a big blast and fireball.

The reality is that I don't view this as a serious defensive weapon (though it certainly could do the job at need if it proves reliable) and I certainly don't view it as something I'd use to penetrate barriers - honestly I wouldn't be using a 556 round either out of any length barrel - that's where 308 kind of shines.

The CZ would be simply a range gun and novelty platform that fires a low-cost round I tend to prefer (at least over 223) when coming out of shorter barrels. Honestly, I've got more serious tools than hands and friends to use them - MP5/93/G3/HK23 F/A platforms, M16 (F/A) and AR15's galore, AK's, SCAR-H, etc. If I felt seriously concerned for my health, I wouldn't be grabbing a VZ 58 S/A with a very short barrel, marginal ergo (front grip), no suppressor and limited optics options.

As I said in my original post, this is just for fun. All that said, you made some very strong points for anyone considering a short-barrel rifle, especially in a tactical or defense setting. Many thanks, Matt.

Yes, I treat firearms first and foremost as tools, especially insofar as justifying to the Mrs... 

I definitely agree with you that the 7.62x39 has a lot of short barrel potential.  This is a fascinating read if you haven't: http://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=1

However, if you aren't wanting to reload (sort of defeats much of the cheap fun of 7.62x39 IMO), then realize you're shooting cartridges primarily designed for 16" barrels.  With reloading, you can most certainly try various powders and definitely look to some of the 300 blk recipes for inspiration...  A significant benefit is the tapered 7.62x39 case which helps tremendously with extraction while case remains under high pressures vs say a 5.56.  The tapered case being one reason, but also the price (pre-7N6 ban) and that the FMJs don't rely on velocity for fragmentation -- a 5.45 build VZ58 would have been pretty appealing in a "micro" configuration (pulling on Galil terminology but feel it's the best descriptor for the 7" version -- also worth noting I have seen some pretty special Galils in 5.45 too...).

Regardless -- with short 7.62x39 ak barrels, you get tremendous blast and flash and also a fair bit of unburnt powder...   My advice is to first find a friend w/ an 8" or even 10" krink and shoot it bare muzzle to get an idea of what you're in for with even more blast and flash out of a 7" barrel.   

You are correct w/ the mag insertion angles, you're limited in grips.  You *might* (well, should) be able to get away with a stubby vfg, but that's about it. 
Also, at a minimum I'd be looking at a linear comp for the gun.  I believe it's Allen Gun Works out of Canada that offers one for the VZ58 -- I'm not aware of any pig or similar flash hiders for the VZ58/SKS threading.  Goal is to provide a little boost as well as direct flash and blast downrange...
If you really wanted, Manticore might be willing to do a specially threaded muzzle device for you, but when looking at them for my M92, I ultimately went with the CNCW 4 piece device instead...

So long as you understand the tradeoffs -- absolutely get what you want.   And it sounds like you have all your bases covered, so especially if you're looking just for fun/cool factor, then I see no reason not to go ahead and get one.  Heck, Strike Back (Cinemax show) made them look pretty sweet.









And to be clear, I get the appeal in an entirely unfacetious way; however, my pragmatic/utility/wanting to run an NEA rail/etc requirements has me planning my next VZ58 acquisition to be a 12" pistol.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2016, 01:47:37 AM »
Mine is a 12" carbine from Czechpointusa, it's brutally loud and shoots 3 foot flames sideways with no can, but it's my current favorite rifle bar none. 



What muzzle device is shooting the flames? Doesn't look like it's direct thread.  Also -- where's the stock adapter at? Kidding, sort of.

Offline Horse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • RS Regulate
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 05:21:38 AM »
Surefire SOCOM muzzle brake for the can.  Broad daylight flames, and crazy side blast.  It's not very public range friendly without the can.


VZSA is on the machine right now getting cut.  Had to pause that one a little bit to verify how tight we could get the interface.  I went a little too loose at first.  There is a risk that minor fitting will be required for some rifles, but that should not be a big deal in production.
Owner: RSRegulate.com

Offline Howlin Mad

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2016, 09:55:04 PM »
I also have many tools for specific tasks. 

The VZ58 Compact is a toy, a very fun toy. 

Gets lots of attention at the range, oh yeah, don't stand to the side of me.







Offline Atl_Matt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 11:26:11 PM »
Very nice rig Howlin. Old eyes make your red dot setup a must for me to hit anything. How's the wire folder?  Love hate relation with them - like how compact and simple they are - cheek weld and comfort usually suffer a bit. Best

Offline Froggy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
    • Shooting in the Czech Republic
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 09:05:32 AM »
he doesn't recommend less than 10" barrels due to insufficient penetration.
That is, I was told,  the reason what Zastava slapped a 10' barrel on its M92. By retaining decent velocity, it enables you to enjoy acceptable accuracy to hit a man's torso up to 300 meters.

Offline Howlin Mad

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 12:52:32 AM »
Very nice rig Howlin. Old eyes make your red dot setup a must for me to hit anything. How's the wire folder?  Love hate relation with them - like how compact and simple they are - cheek weld and comfort usually suffer a bit. Best

Thanks, yeah, the red dot is mandatory these days.

The folder flat out sucks, even with a foam wrap.  I have since swapped it out for an Ace, much better.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 01:30:23 AM »
he doesn't recommend less than 10" barrels due to insufficient penetration.
That is, I was told,  the reason what Zastava slapped a 10' barrel on its M92. By retaining decent velocity, it enables you to enjoy acceptable accuracy to hit a man's torso up to 300 meters.

I always thought the reason for the M92 having a 10" barrel was b/c the Yugo handguards are longer, and the longer barrel allowed the same handguards as the rest of the Yugo AKs...  Same goes for why the Krinks for other variants have shorter barrels...  The history of the krink was originally helicopter pilots survival weapon if I recall correctly.

Velocity primarily matters insofar as it affects trajectory -- faster bullet shoots flatter than a slower bullet.  And a flatter shooting bullet makes hits more likely than a severe rainbow bullet by making proper range estimation less critical for first shot hits...

Offline Froggy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
    • Shooting in the Czech Republic
Re: VZ 58 Pistol SBR Project - what do I need to know?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 08:10:48 AM »
Can't confirm 100% RSR as I was told that reason for the 10' barrel by the Czech importer that has extensive contacts & dealings with Zastava.  What ever is the reason, at the end of the day,  the 7,62x39 fired in a 10' barrel works a treat. The rifle remains fun, sufficiently compact & practical.  Personnaly I don't see any valid reasons to got any shorter for my needs.

If you want to go w/ a shorter barrel than 10" -- IMO, you're better suited w/ something in ... 9mm
+1,  I agree 100%
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 08:12:45 AM by Froggy »