Author Topic: Looking for my first rifle!  (Read 19425 times)

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Offline bm303

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Looking for my first rifle!
« on: July 13, 2016, 09:22:21 PM »
Hi everyone,

I am pretty obsessed with Commie guns, and Czech guns in particular. Always was fascinated with them for some reason. So I am looking to get my first rifle and I am leaning toward a VZ-58, even though I know almost nothing about them. That or something like the Arsenal SGL-31 AK-74.

Visually I really like the look of this VZ58:



My only use will be range fun.

Would the VZ be a good choice for a first rifle? It would be kind of cool to have such a unique gun. I've never seen anyone with one at the range. They almost all have AR's and a few AK's.... but no VZ58's in sight.

Offline ncgoober

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2016, 10:41:56 PM »
If you have a wife or girlfriend that you want to get involved (which is always a plus on a shared budget) than the softer shooting AK74 may be a better first rifle.

If you go with AK74 make sure you take a look at Vepr74.    OTOH the weight of a Vepr may not be best for your wife though.

One thing for sure, you better get a move on.  Hildebeast is on the way.


Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 11:25:30 PM »
I don't think the AK74 is really that much softer shooting than the VZ58...  It's a longer recoil impulse, but with that heavy bcg, I wouldn't call it lighter recoiling.  VZ58 is a little snappier...

The VZ58 has often been compared to the M1 carbine in handling, weight, efficiency, and use, but it's a much more robust cartridge. 

For one rifle, I like 7.62x39 as a general purpose caliber.  It's capable on deer and hogs, and suitable for home defense as well... 
Now 5.56 is definitely lighter recoiling, but it's a less well-rounded caliber overall for medium sized game but is better suited to addressing varmint issues.  Another benefit of 5.56 is that is flatter shooting at longer ranges, but it is also less effective and more suited to wind drift...  Generally new shooters have a hard time with bullet drop, while advanced shooters have a harder time with wind drift -- bullet drop is consistent, wind speeds and drift never are. 
Generally, 7.62x39 is cheaper to shoot than 5.56, but 7.62x39's low cost is dependent on cheap russian imports -- cheap b/c their raw material costs are so incredibly low due to all of the old soviet stockpiles and lower standard of living...  Apples to apples for American-produced ammo in brass cases, 5.56/.223 will, or should, be 20%-30% cheaper than 7.62x39 since it uses less raw materials. 

Both calibers are options in VZ58. 

However or perhaps moreover, ncgoober makes a good point.  Any weapon you buy, I'd suggest getting a dozen or two standard capacity mags to go with (anti-gunner's high capacity).  The 7.62x39's VZ58s mags are platform-specific, while the 7.62x39's version are standard AR mags. 
On the AR mag front, I would not want to stockpile polymer mags for ban as they do warp over time, especially if loaded.  One exception would be the Lancers with steel feed lips.  Speaking of steel, the c products stainless steel mags are much more durable than the USGI aluminum ones.  SGAmmo has the stainless mags in stock right now, or did last I checked, for what everyone else is selling aluminum for.  Steel would be my preference for longterm mag reserves... 

Further on ncgoober's point, it wouldn't hurt to take a look at ARs either.  There are some really good deals right now still, and even if you can just afford bare receivers at $100 per high quality one (personally, I prefer Aero) they could be a great investment.  I doubt that AR parts will ever fully dry up, and since they assemble like tinker toys, it's an easy gun to diy repair/modify.  The VZ58 requires a skilled gunsmith with the correct press, lathes, and other such tooling, and perhaps most importantly -- actual skills...  Food for thought if you're young, want a gun to shoot a lot, etc.  Also if potentially getting into carbine classes, a lot of them are AR-based, though the VZ58 is close enough in function to run as well. 

Bottom line, I think the VZ58 is an excellent first rifle. But given current events, and if budget allows, I would encourage you to cast a slightly wider net if possible too and think towards the future as it relates to mags and "guns" (i.e., gov't defined bare receivers) as well... 

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 11:26:23 PM »
Do note there are a lot of comparison and such threads here on VZ58 vs ARs, AKs, etc, that have much more info and many folks perspectives as well.

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2016, 03:10:42 AM »
Unpopular opinion alert:
If you live in the USA, buy a high quality AR15 or some variant thereof. No 922r concerns and...the AR has much more to offer in terms of aftermarket accessories, high quality mag availability and reliability. Reliability? Yes. This isn't 1970. The modern AR is more reliable than the AKM or the VZ58 in harsh conditions. That little ejection port cover works wonders in harsh conditions. I have tried the mud test, the sand test and the dirt test with my personal AK and AR -- the AR wins every time. I will admit I was really surprised as all the blah blah blah would lead anyone to believe the opposite to be true. People can talk about how great the commie rifles are all they want right until they have to back it up with proof. The AR wins.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2016, 05:47:04 AM »
No.

It's the same old DI POS firing the same anemic 5.56 round, and even worse now in the shortened M4 version (think of not being able to knock down skinnies in Mogadishu). They might work better with a round with enough oomph to blow past the inherent fouling of the action, say in .308 or maybe 6.5 Grendel, but...no.

http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2009/10/in_2008_afghan_firefight_us_we.html

Personally, for a general purpose self-defense / survival rifle, I'd rather carry a drop dead reliable rifle chambered in a round that can penetrate both sides of a car and kill the bad guy on the other side...like 7.62x39...in a good (imported) AK or CSA Vz58.

Offline Brasky

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2016, 07:41:00 AM »
Unpopular opinion alert:
If you live in the USA, buy a high quality AR15 or some variant thereof. No 922r concerns and...the AR has much more to offer in terms of aftermarket accessories, high quality mag availability and reliability. Reliability? Yes. This isn't 1970. The modern AR is more reliable than the AKM or the VZ58 in harsh conditions. That little ejection port cover works wonders in harsh conditions. I have tried the mud test, the sand test and the dirt test with my personal AK and AR -- the AR wins every time. I will admit I was really surprised as all the blah blah blah would lead anyone to believe the opposite to be true. People can talk about how great the commie rifles are all they want right until they have to back it up with proof. The AR wins.

AK and VZ are more open which leads sand in faster but once jammed can be cleaned out in seconds with water. Once the AR has had enough sand, it needs to be thoroughly cleaned before it will work again.

I would take a $1k AK or VZ over an AR any day, but I prefer the simplicity and the x39 caliber.

No one bats an eye when you bring an AR to the range here. Bring an AK or VZ and you get many lookers and questions. One point to note is that the AR is at an extreme low for price but AKs and VZs are steadily increasing in price (many quality ak variants could be had a year ago for $500 or less, now it is hard to find one at $650 or less)

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2016, 12:30:18 PM »
The AK market is getting to the point of nonsensically high prices. Much of that is likely due to executive order nonsense. My AK is now something around 4 times more expensive than when I bought it in the 90s.

Back to the AR for a moment. The 5.56 is not anemic with the right ammo. 75gr Hornady Tap is much more effective than the military ammo and you can certainly hand load some very effective rounds which do not laser beam right through soft targets. While I have an M4 profile AR, it is not my go to AR -- my personal favorite is patterned after the Mk 12 (18" 1:7" twist barrel, free float, rifle length gas system).

If I want something with more serious power, I pull the SR-762 out of my safe. However, lugging around multiple mags full of 175gr ammo gets old pretty quickly.

More open/less open and cleaning. I have tried the idea that you can make an AK run after it is gunked up with mud by just dumping water in it. How much water are you talking about because taking off the cover and dumping a full bucket of clean water into it didn't do the trick. At least not well enough to where it would fire more than 2-3 rounds at a time without having an issue. And who carries a 2.5 gallon bucket with them everywhere in the field?

There is another rifle which could likely be more reliable than the AR, AK, etc if the design were slightly updated. That is the South Korean K2. A lower that takes M16 mags but has an AK style gas piston system that mates with the bolt carrier. If it only had a dust cover.... Under any semi-normal conditions mine has never failed to fire but I have never tried dumping mud into it. It isn't as easy to replace as an AR or AK and spare parts are somewhat expensive.

Offline Brasky

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2016, 01:22:53 PM »
The AK market is getting to the point of nonsensically high prices. Much of that is likely due to executive order nonsense. My AK is now something around 4 times more expensive than when I bought it in the 90s.

Back to the AR for a moment. The 5.56 is not anemic with the right ammo. 75gr Hornady Tap is much more effective than the military ammo and you can certainly hand load some very effective rounds which do not laser beam right through soft targets. While I have an M4 profile AR, it is not my go to AR -- my personal favorite is patterned after the Mk 12 (18" 1:7" twist barrel, free float, rifle length gas system).

If I want something with more serious power, I pull the SR-762 out of my safe. However, lugging around multiple mags full of 175gr ammo gets old pretty quickly.

More open/less open and cleaning. I have tried the idea that you can make an AK run after it is gunked up with mud by just dumping water in it. How much water are you talking about because taking off the cover and dumping a full bucket of clean water into it didn't do the trick. At least not well enough to where it would fire more than 2-3 rounds at a time without having an issue. And who carries a 2.5 gallon bucket with them everywhere in the field?

There is another rifle which could likely be more reliable than the AR, AK, etc if the design were slightly updated. That is the South Korean K2. A lower that takes M16 mags but has an AK style gas piston system that mates with the bolt carrier. If it only had a dust cover.... Under any semi-normal conditions mine has never failed to fire but I have never tried dumping mud into it. It isn't as easy to replace as an AR or AK and spare parts are somewhat expensive.

On cleaning, check out Rob Ski and the AK operator Union. He sometimes cleans them by dumping the rifle into a creek

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2016, 01:38:40 PM »
Even with heavy loads, .223/5.56 is marginal with mid sized game like whitetail deer or coyotes...  Personally, I think you need to be up into the 80+ gr range to even consider humane use for deer.  And for that heavy of loads, you're either hand loading into an AR or using a bolt action rifle.  So if I don't trust it to reliably and swiftly kill a deer, I question why consider it adequate for similarly sized humans...

Each caliber has tradeoffs.  .223/5.56 penetrates less through drywall at cqb distances than 7.62x39, or even pistol caliber bullets.  However, that same minimal penetration directly correlates to reduced penetration in flesh and through the barriers bad guys typically hide behind...  And 7.62x39 performs best out of carbine length barrels, while .223/5.56 performs best out of rifle length.  So take that into consideration if wanting a rifle or carbine as well...
The OP can definitely do his own research on caliber.  Fortunately, both calibers in question are available in the VZ58.  Personally, I think the VZ58 is best in the 7.62x39 iteration.

Again, the primary benefit of ARs as I see it as all they really require for assembly are parts and appropriate wrenches.  Even AKs are more difficult to build in my opinion.  Even if the OP doesn't want to build, having receivers on hand for future builds is prudent in my opinion. 
The AR/5.56 is definitely more capable than 22lr; however, if I could have/afford just two semi-rifles, I would personally recommend that the OP get a 7.62x39 and a 22lr, 10/22 preferably though if not minding tubes the marlin 60s are a good option too...  Drawback of 22lr vs 5.56 is less reliable (rimfire issues) and less capable cartridge, while the main benefit of 22lr is the much lower cost. 
But on the cost front, having guns, legally defined -- in this case stripped receivers, and mags for future builds is definitely prudent.
Having ammo/mag commonality/standardization can also be a good thing. 

Dollar for dollar at today's, I think the OP would be ahead w/ a VZ58 over an AK.  The Yugo-made Yugos would probably be about the only ones I'd consider worth it over a VZ58 at current prices...  Especially considering the Romys and Yugos are about the same prices these days.

I get the appeal of accurized longer barreled 5.56 ARs, but I find myself questioning why not just go w/ a .308 instead.  The only big pluses I can't discount w/ 5.56 are the ammo commonality and lower per round cost...  Performance and weightwise, I still think the .308 comes out ahead if wanting to have optimal performance beyond 300-400 yards.  DI ARs by nature of their design are very easy to accurize, and for lower round count precision type weapons, I also don't see major drawbacks on the DI system in that role -- for high volume fire carbine and such use, I do like the appeal of piston ARs.  Adams arms uppers can be had for $500 or so, and is one of the most common piston AR systems in the country -- but, there is no piston parts standardization vs w/ DI weapons.

One further thing to think about -- I find I'm willing to use and abuse weapons I don't care about much more likely than those I do.  So here, a truck gun that could get stolen makes me much more likely to pick an AR over a VZ58.  As a ranch rifle for varmints and stuff (as well as more suitable caliber), again the AR or 10/22 over the VZ58, etc.  Just something to think about -- are you the type that gets new work shoes/boots and clothes, but still wear the old and destroyed stuff to keep the replacements nice?  When you get a new truck do you baby it for years, or after the first scratch/ding, willing to put it to heavy work, etc?  Food for thought on what you're buying to collect/treasure and what you're buying to use and abuse.  Specifically for me, I will grab an AR for a work gun in 5.56, even though I believe my Galils to be superior in every way but weight.  SHTF in 5.56 especially if restricted to iron sights, yes I'm grabbing a Galil.

Offline Franz Maurer

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2016, 02:04:07 PM »
Don't worry about what "everybody else" has
If you have a preference for something it is a no-brainer : Get one !
( you will eventually have one of each anyway)
Vz58 is an excellent firs rifle. It will spoil you.
..and regardless of brand, it is hard to go wrong.

Funny how quickly the thread became a discussion on calibers instead
Stick to what works best
Vz was meant for 7.62x39
AR was meant for 5.56x45 (223)
AK was also meant for 7.62x39 but along came an "improvement"  in form of 5.45x39
each has advantages and disadvantages. It is a game of trade-offs : by getting an ar in 7.62x39 or a vz in 223 you are introducing additional trade offs and potential compromises into the mix.  Leave that for later after you first gain experience with the basics.
Caliber selection is a different issue from platform selection however sometimes a caliber choice dictates a matching platform and vice-versa until clowns mix it all up because "what everybody else has"

remember to come back and tell us how happy you are with your new VZ58

...also mention what state you're in as it may be advantageous to have certain platform with certain features to comply with restrictions
(can't beat stripper clip loading possibility on the vz)



« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:19:10 PM by Franz Maurer »
75B .40 ; P-01 ; kadet2 ; '94 witness .45 - slim nose 1of999 ; samopal vz.58 ; tin foil hat.

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2016, 02:24:25 PM »
Don't worry about what "everybody else" has
If you have a preference for something it is a no-brainer : Get one !
( you will eventually have one of each anyway)
Vz58 is an excellent firs rifle. It will spoil you.
..and regardless of brand, it is hard to go wrong.

Funny how quickly the thread became a discussion on calibers instead
Stick to what works best
Vz was meant for 7.62x39
AR was meant for 5.56x45 (223)
AK was also meant for 7.62x39 but along came an "improvement"  in form of 5.45x39
each has advantages and disadvantages. It is a game of trade-offs : by getting an ar in 7.62x39 or a vz in 223 you are introducing additional trade offs and potential compromises into the mix.  Leave that for later after you first gain experience with the basics.
Caliber selection is a different issue from platform selection however sometimes a caliber choice dictates a matching platform and vice-versa until clowns mix it all up because "what everybody else has"

remember to come back and tell us how happy you are with your new VZ58

Franz is correct about caliber changes and for why you can look into why so many newly developed "multi-caliber" weapon systems continue to have reliability/performance issues.

Also agree that the caliber discussion is probably more confusing to a first time rifle buyer than the weapon itself...

But, the AR was designed around .308, and was adopted by military in 5.56 and due to or perhaps despite military standarization, we've only relatively recently reached a point in the AR world where w/ SOPMOD bolt kits, buffer and spring combos, and perhaps most importantly improved magazines in 5.56 that the 5.56 rifles and carbines are MORE reliable than .308 ARs... 

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2016, 05:39:13 PM »
Gotta feel for our troops bravely fielding that turkey of an M4 into battle...thanks to the procurement gravy train our troops have been saddled with a basic infantry rifle second to all for the last 50 years. What a disgrace:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/armys-quits-tests-after-competing-rifle-outperform/


Yep, 5.56 is great -- as long as the bad guys are hiding behind sheet rock or plywood -- if they're behind brick or cinderblocks, you should have brought an AK or a .308:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprGoEpDXJQ

Whoever posted this to you tube didn't dwell too much on 7.62x39. Too embarrassing for 5.56 chambered weapons, I suppose.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 05:50:24 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 03:47:25 PM »
As a replacement to the M1 carbine for non-infantry troops, the 5.56 m4/16 is a solid improvement -- in most instances a more effective round especially if just exclusively fmj, and the AR is pretty well sealed from elements and dirt with mag in, muzzle condom on, and dust cover closed so with limited use and infrequent cleanings, whether stored on rack or carried for security/perimeter patrols, it should work when needed.  That's probably a lot about why the US Air Force was the first to adopt... 

As a general purpose military front line infantry carbine/rifle I find 5.56 lacking...  Logistically, however I don't see the need for a full-sized .308 rifle in most types of combat...  Double weight of .308 rounds vs 5.56 just doesn't make sense when one looks at how bullets are expended in combat zones.
Militarily, most small arms fire is intended for suppression and fixing the enemy, so odds of a given bullet actually hitting an enemy soldier is low.
This marine document on the depuy fighting positions, has a stat of 12 kills per 100 rounds fired for defenders shooting from positions of cover, pretty much a best-case combat scenario: http://www.2ndbn5thmar.com/fight/whythedepuyfightinghole.pdf

In Afghanistan, the GAO estimates US troops fire 250,000 rounds for every enemy insurgent killed -- that's about $75 grand in ammo costs (by commercial bulk retail pricing) BEFORE you account for the abhorrent costs of shipping anything to and within that country: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/us-forced-to-import-bullets-from-israel-as-troops-use-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-28580666.html

Back to the original point, while yes the .308 is more powerful, within 250-300 yards the 7.62x39 can do pretty much everything .308 can do and often better, with perhaps a small exception of .308's greater penetration against steels solely due to higher velocity.  .308's energy inside of 250-300 yards generally is too much power and results in much longer penetration necks in gelatin with similar issues to the m855 ammo with through and through pencil holes with little energy deposited in the enemy -- yes .308 is a 30 caliber hole in this instance vs a 22 caliber pencil holes for 5.56, but insofar as pencil holes'/permanent cavity there shouldn't be much difference between a 9mm round and a .308 going through and through, the temporary stretch cavity is where differences come in. 
While in the weeds, the main point here is that if anticipating a substantial amount of engagements beyond 300m, .308 shines.  If anticipating most to all engagements within 300m, then 7.62x39 shines.  Most folks who deem the .308 caliber/rifles to be paramount for combat have an argument that essentially distills down to that they'll pick off their foes at 500 yards (or other extreme range) -- which doesn't really account for the fact that no human will willing be a sitting duck so will seek cover/concealment, the likely limited marksmanship of most of these types including the challenges related to ranging and limited exposure of enemy once they know they are in the crosshairs that won't allow multiple shots at same target at same place (it won't be a static range), etc...

Back to the military, m4s are primarily used for combat at distances where supporting/combined arms cannot be used -- whether unit rifle grenades and mortars, supporting artillery, or air, troops typically can and are taught to engage enemy at range with these assets and small arms merely use to suppress and pin down the enemy to be killed by methods other than small arms... 
And even in the small arms realm, individually portable squad automatic weapons are considered the primary tool for enemy engagement...  But with most US infantry now being vehicle-borne troops, .30 and .50 cal vehicle mounted machine guns and grenade launchers typically are used in place of or preferable to M4s for engagements at all distances...
When you're talking about danger-close grenade range combat, the M4 and 5.56 round does perform sufficiently in most cases...

Also worth noting that modern small caliber high velocity rounds with shorter effective ranges have been outgunned by old bolt action rifles in service calibers in Afghanistan, primarily a matter of range, but worth noting...
http://cominganarchy.com/2010/05/21/it-took-us-nine-years-to-figure-this-out/
http://archive.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2010/05/21/us_rifles_not_suited_to_warfare_in_afghan_hills/

Ultimate point here is to have at least a high-level understanding as to all the ways and reasons compromises are being considered.  For the military it's seldom about the "best" but rather about logistics, procurement, and pacifying the bureaucratic officer corps and all the varying stakeholders that have different priorities than optimal terminal performance, weapon reliability, etc...

All considered is why that while 7.62x39 weighs ~45% more than 5.56, it's potential to be more effective, require only one shot to put an enemy out of action vs a couple shots with 5.56, better in short barrels, cases chamber/extract more reliably, etc, just aren't a primary concern...
*stealing ammo weights from here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/65272-how-does-weight-compare-between-steel-case-762x39-and-brass-223/
Quote
200 rounds of steel-cased 7.62x39 122 grain weighs 7.22 lbs. (1000 rounds = 36.15 lbs)
200 rounds of brass-cased .223 55 grain weighs 5.02 lbs. (1000 rounds = 25.13 lbs)
200 rounds of 2 3/4 12 ga 00 bk weighs 19.18 lbs. (1000 rounds = 95.90 lbs)
200 rounds of 7.62x51 146 grain weighs 10.86 lbs. (1000 rounds = 54.30 lbs)

The figures for the 7.62x51 was supplied to me by someone else so I can't guarantee it's accuracy but it seems right to me. The other calibers I personally weighed so they are accurate. The difference between the 7.62x39 and .223 is about 2 lbs. The figures kind of screw up the idea of carrying around thousands of rounds on foot.

From a civilian, for self defense within 100 yards (unless your part of the country has frequent gunfights, should cover all legally justifiable self-defense scenarios -- at least before the zombies come), 5.56 is an adequate performer especially with premium non-fmj ammo.  It also generally produces less recoil, is lighter, is a more compact round, and in the VZ58 uses AR mags, which are almost as awesome as glock mags.   O0
But again, 7.62x39 is better for hunting, barrier penetration, and as a combat small arm at carbine (~300 yard or less range), especially if you don't have mgs, supporting arms, etc, like the military does...

Define your needs and make a choice -- any gun is better than no gun.  There's no wrong answer, just differing opinions -- but those whose opinions' differ may decide your opinion/decision is wrong...  haha

« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 04:09:14 PM by RSR »

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 07:14:12 PM »
AR:
https://youtu.be/YAneTFiz5WU
AK:
https://youtu.be/DX73uXs3xGU
Vz58:
https://youtu.be/f3kComQz40o

The first two basically match up with the results from my informal AR and AK mud testing I did for my own amusement.