Looking for my first rifle!

[RSR]

OP -- as mdi and meataxe both note if you get to the substance of their posts, the 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 weapons excel in different ways. 

Want to sit on a bench at the range and shoot for accuracy -- an AR in 5.56 wins, especially if you opt for a premium barrel and a free float forend.

Want minimal cleaning, then go w/ a piston gun over a DI AR -- your pic on weapon platform.  Might have mentioned earlier but some Russian "non-corrosive" stuff has in the past proved to be mildly corrosive, so there is a risk w/ that cost savings.

Want a minute of man carbine for cheap training -- 7.62x39 weapons are sufficient there and typically less prone to malfunctions than ARs, especially if using cheap steel cased russian ammo (if you load 2-3 brass rounds in with steel case 5.56 mags, you can generally avoid issues with steel that way -- brass round and then 9-14 rounds of steel, another brass, etc).  Issue with steel is that they don't seal against chamber walls as well, so with straight walled 5.56 powder and other fouling adheres to the case wall eventually leading to extraction issues.  Brass expands more, so when expanding, that fouling adheres to the case and effectively cleans your chamber...  Running 5 mags of steel and then one of brass, you should anticipate a failure to extract.

Want barrier penetration or a hog rifle or a deer rifle, 7.62x39. 

Want a varmint rifle to protect livestock from common predators, 5.56.

Want the least amount of recoil, 5.56.

Want a common us made round, 5.56.

Want good self defense ammo -- both 7.62x39 and 5.56 is available and US made, but starts at 50 cents or so per round, or 2-3x what range ammo runs.

There's more here, but this should deliver the point. 

IMO, the VZ58 was 50 years ahead of its time and remains and excellent weapon.  It also sits fairly squarely in the middle of the AR vs AK debate (accuracy, reliability, etc) as well as caliber-wise somewhat in the middle of the 5.56 vs .308 debate.

Write your needs down on a piece of paper or spreadsheet.  Prioritize those needs. Evaluate each point objectively.  And decide accordingly...  Many don't like having to be constrained to this process, so we end up buying add'l firearms -- perhaps more than we actually need?.

[RSR]

Back to the more interesting portion of the program...

RSR - at one point, I was fairly current on Canada's arms but I have lost track of them somewhat. From what I can tell, their rifles and carbines are still very similar to those used in the US with a few tweaks here and there. They do have one which strikes me as fairly interesting - it is the C8CT. They also have the C7CT but it is more like the M12 Mod 1 where the C8CT is a more compact weapon. Despite verifying its existence, I haven't been able to track down the exact specs for it as of yet.

In addition to rifles which are almost clones of the M16A4, the M4A1, the Mk12 and the Mk18, they also have the C8SFW which appears to be almost identical to the British L119A1. At some point, they had a mental misfire and also adopted the C8PDW which is a PDW version as the name implies. It has a 5.7" barrel. I had no idea the Canadians were big fans of insane muzzle flash and going deaf in 5 rounds but the PDW version seems to confirm that is the case. 

Of course I have maritime cups on the tub Glock. Don't be silly.

I have looked at Sionics a few times in the past but always accidentally forget about them when building an AR. Wow - their prices on uppers are not bad at all. I would be tempted to try them out but my next AR build will likely be something odd like a 6.5 Creedmoor.

Pic of the C8CT mentioned hereinabove...I am not much on that grip but the rest doesn't look too bad:

Canada's interesting to me b/c Diemaco starts from a quality-first and seems to not have major concern for cost in that regards...  Vs the US, that operates pretty much the exact opposite.  Furniture-wise the canadians/diemaco is somewhat behind but their latest w/ the monolithic uppers have been sporting magpul stocks and ergo grips IIRC.

I picked up one of the bcm c8 uppers w/ the simon sleeve a couple years back and have it outfitted sort of like a SFW/L119A1 with free float quad rail, fde furniture, etc, and was actually looking at picking up another and outfitting it more along the line of the carbine w/ fsb tri rail and odg furniture, probably a different grip however...

Just looked at Sionics' website, and they're now selling their uppers without the bcg included.  looks like they lowered prices by $50-75 per assembled upper, but are selling the bcg separately now at $170, so an ~$100 price increase from what I recall.  Capitalism I suppose. 
But still, $250 barrel, $100 upper receiver, $30 for gas tube and and flash hider, $5 or so for assorted pins -- you're paying ~$35 for assembly above cost of bare parts, which is fair, but not getting the same deal as before -- that is, $100+ in freebies when they had them priced at high $400s w/ bcg.

[RSR]

In other news regarding magazines a typical US military fashion -- instead of trashing up to decades old mags in circulation:

U.S. Army to Introduce Enhanced M4 Magazine

POSTED BY: MATTHEW COX JULY 25, 2016

The U.S. Army TACOM is introducing a new M4 Enhanced Performance Magazine, according to a TACOM Maintenance Information Message first reported by Soldier Systems.net.

The new magazine will feature a tan body and blue follower and will be engineered to address feeding issues with M855A1 ammunition, according to Soldier Systems.

The M4 EPM has been assigned NSN 1005-01-630-9508 and will be introduced through attrition of the current magazine.

The Army first started to improve M4 magazines in 2008 after reliability tests found that the original follower caused many of the weapon?s feeding malfunctions during the test.

We will be watching for further updates.

http://kitup.military.com/2016/07/u-s-army-to-introduce-enhanced-m4-magazine.html

[MeatAxe]

In other news regarding magazines a typical US military fashion -- instead of trashing up to decades old mags in circulation:

U.S. Army to Introduce Enhanced M4 Magazine

POSTED BY: MATTHEW COX JULY 25, 2016

The U.S. Army TACOM is introducing a new M4 Enhanced Performance Magazine, according to a TACOM Maintenance Information Message first reported by Soldier Systems.net.

The new magazine will feature a tan body and blue follower and will be engineered to address feeding issues with M855A1 ammunition, according to Soldier Systems.

The M4 EPM has been assigned NSN 1005-01-630-9508 and will be introduced through attrition of the current magazine.

The Army first started to improve M4 magazines in 2008 after reliability tests found that the original follower caused many of the weapon?s feeding malfunctions during the test.

We will be watching for further updates.

http://kitup.military.com/2016/07/u-s-army-to-introduce-enhanced-m4-magazine.html

Yep, another band aid and another disservice to the US combat soldier. Hopefully, they can get P-mags in the combat zone.

[RSR]

Yep, another band aid and another disservice to the US combat soldier. Hopefully, they can get P-mags in the combat zone.

Lancers. 

Actually, the GI magazine design while perhaps not optimal can be reliable if they're used within the constraints of their design/service life...  Not a bandaid, a necessary and prudent upgrade.

The issue is that not all units/soldiers are provided with enough ammo to test function of all magazines prior to deployment -- and those that do, if they don't crush/destroy bad mags, they'll just get reissued to someone else when exchanging (and mags they receive in exchange may not work properly either -- another soldier's discards).  With supply folks not liking lost/damaged mags, it's lose/lose situation for the average soldier, which is why many just purchased their own mags for use in combat, at least until the powers that be banned them from doing so...

Further, the HK 416 gold standard steel mags are expensive at $30 per pop.  C products sells stainless mags with their own follower (magpul designed), and the stainless mags are much stronger and more durable than aluminum.  Same exact outside dimensions  (most polymer mags are not).  Difference in weight between an aluminum and stainless mag is only equivalent to about 2 rounds of 5.56 ammo. 
Polymer mags are same weight to lighter than aluminum, but run at 2-2.5x the cost of aluminum.  C Prods stainless mags run $1-2 more and already come w/ an upgraded follower (SG Ammo has them in quantity at sub $9 vs aluminum you'll see at sub $7, magpul you'll see around $10-12, and lancer at $13-15)... 
Point being, stainless are better (function) and also much cheaper (cost) and same size (kit) -- and since stainless don't have corrosion issues typically of concern with steel mags. 

At least the outside color is different, which will make identification easier than looking at followers...  There are still countless mags in circulation with the old black/gray followers dating back to Vietnam.  The green anti-tilts evaluated in the mentioned test were a significant improvement over the black, and these latest generation are a significant improvement over the greens...  Typically 75-80%+ of AR malfunctions in reliability tests have been mag related.  Top tier mags of any type eliminate the bulk of these malfunctions.

[TJNewton]

Went to range a couple of days ago with a friend who had a high-dollar, super tactical AR15 with all the premium parts.  It's a very nice rifle, very accurate, but he did have a jam -- a double feed.  It was cleared relatively easily and he continued shooting.  My VZ2008 did not have a single failure.

That's pretty much the theme when I go out with my VZ2008 and my friends with their AR's.  It doesn't happen every outing, but every third of fourth time an AR in our group goes down for whatever reason.  Sometimes the fix is quick, sometimes the AR is out of commission pending access to beefier tools.

I can only imagine the frustration in actual life-and-death situations if AR15's have that kind of failure rate.  Sure, change out the mags later, or switch out the rifle later with the armorer, but in that very moment such resources aren't a lot of comfort.

I can see how the debate persists regarding 223/556 vs 7.62x39, but I have no idea of how the debate between the reliability of AR's vs combloc weapons can seriously continue.  In my own, limited recreational experience, I've seen a huge difference.  I would give a number expressed as however many times more so regarding the reliability of my VZ2008/SKS's vs. AR15's, but if you multiply zero (VZ2008/SKS) by any number (AR15) you still get a zero.  Let's just say the difference is tremendous.  It doesn't really matter at the range as it's all in good fun, but in the case of a dire scenario, I would gladly give up two or three minutes of angle and suffer a "rainbow" trajectory, yet still know that pulling the trigger will result in an explosion and the propulsion of a projectile. 

[MeatAxe]

Went to range a couple of days ago with a friend who had a high-dollar, super tactical AR15 with all the premium parts.  It's a very nice rifle, very accurate, but he did have a jam -- a double feed.  It was cleared relatively easily and he continued shooting.  My VZ2008 did not have a single failure.

That's pretty much the theme when I go out with my VZ2008 and my friends with their AR's.  It doesn't happen every outing, but every third of fourth time an AR in our group goes down for whatever reason.  Sometimes the fix is quick, sometimes the AR is out of commission pending access to beefier tools.

I can only imagine the frustration in actual life-and-death situations if AR15's have that kind of failure rate.  Sure, change out the mags later, or switch out the rifle later with the armorer, but in that very moment such resources aren't a lot of comfort.

I can see how the debate persists regarding 223/556 vs 7.62x39, but I have no idea of how the debate between the reliability of AR's vs combloc weapons can seriously continue.  In my own, limited recreational experience, I've seen a huge difference.  I would give a number expressed as however many times more so regarding the reliability of my VZ2008/SKS's vs. AR15's, but if you multiply zero (VZ2008/SKS) by any number (AR15) you still get a zero.  Let's just say the difference is tremendous.  It doesn't really matter at the range as it's all in good fun, but in the case of a dire scenario, I would gladly give up two or three minutes of angle and suffer a "rainbow" trajectory, yet still know that pulling the trigger will result in an explosion and the propulsion of a projectile.

This.

And you can throw your AK and Vz in the safe after shooting -- without cleaning it, and go back and repeat trips to the range without worrying about it jamming the next time you shoot it. With an AR, you better clean it after every shooting session, meticulously.

That's why a first rifle should be a good import AK or a Vz instead of an AR15.

I've had several ARs over the past 25 years or so ("quality" manufacturers like Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, etc.) and every bleep one of them has short-stroked or double fed at one time or another. Bad enough at the range, but potentially fatal if the SHTF.

ARs can be incredibly frustrating -- which is not what you want if you're just getting started. You want something that goes bang when you pull the trigger so that you can shoot and shoot and shoot and work on marksmanship, etc. instead of maintenance and trying to troubleshoot the myriad of problems associated with direct impingement gas systems.

Also, you don't want to break the bank with a $2000+ custom AR with expensive (and still anemic) 5.56 ammo compared to cheap and effective 7.62x39.

I'm not saying all ARs are bad. From what I hear, in semi-auto chambered in more powerful cartridges, say 6.5 Grendel and above, the ammo has enough oomph to operate DI reliably -- from what I hear.

[MeatAxe]

OP -- as mdi and meataxe both note if you get to the substance of their posts, the 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 weapons excel in different ways. 

Want to sit on a bench at the range and shoot for accuracy -- an AR in 5.56 wins, especially if you opt for a premium barrel and a free float forend.

Want minimal cleaning, then go w/ a piston gun over a DI AR -- your pic on weapon platform.  Might have mentioned earlier but some Russian "non-corrosive" stuff has in the past proved to be mildly corrosive, so there is a risk w/ that cost savings.

Want a minute of man carbine for cheap training -- 7.62x39 weapons are sufficient there and typically less prone to malfunctions than ARs, especially if using cheap steel cased russian ammo (if you load 2-3 brass rounds in with steel case 5.56 mags, you can generally avoid issues with steel that way -- brass round and then 9-14 rounds of steel, another brass, etc).  Issue with steel is that they don't seal against chamber walls as well, so with straight walled 5.56 powder and other fouling adheres to the case wall eventually leading to extraction issues.  Brass expands more, so when expanding, that fouling adheres to the case and effectively cleans your chamber...  Running 5 mags of steel and then one of brass, you should anticipate a failure to extract.

Want barrier penetration or a hog rifle or a deer rifle, 7.62x39. 

Want a varmint rifle to protect livestock from common predators, 5.56.

Want the least amount of recoil, 5.56.

Want a common us made round, 5.56.

Want good self defense ammo -- both 7.62x39 and 5.56 is available and US made, but starts at 50 cents or so per round, or 2-3x what range ammo runs.

There's more here, but this should deliver the point. 

IMO, the VZ58 was 50 years ahead of its time and remains and excellent weapon.  It also sits fairly squarely in the middle of the AR vs AK debate (accuracy, reliability, etc) as well as caliber-wise somewhat in the middle of the 5.56 vs .308 debate.

Write your needs down on a piece of paper or spreadsheet.  Prioritize those needs. Evaluate each point objectively.  And decide accordingly...  Many don't like having to be constrained to this process, so we end up buying add'l firearms -- perhaps more than we actually need?.

I would add that there is a lot of good, effective and cheap imported ammo in 7.62x39. And it's not as inaccurate as some would like you to believe.

Hornady SSTs and Z-Max/V-Max are very good and accurate and we've used them to slap down big hogs with one shot. I hear that Federal Fusion, Corbon DPX and Winchester PDX1 are also very good stoppers and accurate in 7.62x39.

However, there are a lot of good Com Bloc rounds on par with those for a lot less money. You just need to experiment and see which ones your rifle likes and check ballistics gel tests on You Tube for the ones that do the most damage for hunting purposes. Some, like the old Ulyanovsk 8M3 and 8HP "effect" rounds are absolutely devastating. This guy is pretty informative:

https://www.youtube.com/user/mainejunker

With the rifles you get what you pay for: a milled receiver or a stiff 1.5mm RPK type receiver is going to flex a lot less than say a 1.0mm WASR, so they have more accuracy potential, and often thicker, stiffer barrels. I would avoid US made AKs (with the possible exception of DDIs, according to reports) -- IOs and US-made Century Arms are absolute junk and liable to blow up. Stick with a good Com Bloc AK.

Better sights (e.g. good red dot sights) make a world of difference over the basic irons.

If the recoil on a AK or a Vz bothers you, you can get a "straight line" recoil-compensating buffer tube, like the one mfg. by FAB Defense and fit any AR-style butt stock. These work wonders, especially on stamped AKs (don't know that they're necessary on heavier milled AKs but everything helps). They bring the recoil down to the equivalent of a .22 Magnum with no muzzle flip and no sore shoulders. These are apparently used by the Israeli military for the AKs and VZs they operate, so they're no gimmick. If you can find the buffer tube by itself, they only cost @ $60, well worth the money.

http://www.themakogroup.com/stocks-stock-accessories/ak47-and-variants.html?p=1

http://www.themakogroup.com/stocks-stock-accessories/vz58.html

[RSR]

8M3 and 8HP effect rounds haven't been available for some time.  I like Hornady SST and the Federal Fusion 7.62x39 loads in self/home defense and hunting roles...  Tula soft points seem to be more effective than barnaul generally, but I do like that barnaul's are occasionally available with lacquer cases.  For clean and humane taking of game, I prefer to spend the extra 30 cents for better performing, and higher quality so more accurate, cartridges.

Re: accuracy, that's why I like golden tiger -- much more consistent than the bear rounds (both powder burn rate and charge volume) and even though theoretically, the GT boat tail bullet only increases accuracy after 200 yards (flat base should be more accurate sub 200 yards) the cartridge overall is reliable and more accurate than most others on the market, especially at its pricepoint.  It's lacquered w/ sealed primer and sealed neck -- and has flash retardant in the powder.  And is pretty much the same price as the barnaul ammo...

I don't know how much receiver flex affects the inherent accuracy of the AK rifle -- it's the bolt - trunnion - and barrel lockup that matters and none of that is stamped on AKs...  Under full auto, rapid fire, etc, yes it makes a difference but under single shot semi-auto I've always questioned that...  I do think AKs have more barrel whip and worse harmonics due to operating system system as well as the off balanced recoil impulse...
So I think the overall affect of milled vs stamped is vastly overstated.  I have this bookmarked and is the best explanation I've seen: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?301449-AK-Accuracy-milled-vs-stamped&p=2470826#post2470826

Its always interesting to see what folks think of why the AK design is so fickle with bullet accuracy. Im in the process of testing out my own ideas and they normaly never get mentioned in any forums. If you start out with perfect ammo componants, I feel there are 3 design issues. 1) the 7.63x39 mil spec chamber calls for a 123 grain FMJ to make a .150 free bore jump from the case mouth to the rifling lands. Any of you folks that reload for target accuracy know what that means....flyer city. Secondly, the gas system is over pressurized with a .177 gas port. I have built a gas system that works the action just fine on a .073 diameter port with a slightly longer piston chamber. The AK gas chamber is so short, that it requires a fantasticly large gas port to start the heavy action componants in movement. Please remember the bolt is still not yet unlocked when the bullet is already out of the barrel. So the idea of milled vs stamped has little to do with barrel harmonics where as the fit of the gas tube would have more importance due to the fact it will react directly with the gas block as it get pressurized. Thirdly, I am of the opinion that the tall over the barrel gas block capture of gasses puts a tremendouse amount of downward torque on the foward portion of the barrel. This excessive barrel whip makes it difficult for the bullet to leave the bore at the same exact point of occilation shot after shot. Another way of looking at it is think of the gas piston as a projectile. The gas block will violently recoil foward as it is the base from wich the piston is fired. And the higher over the barrel the piston, the greater the leverage upon the pined bas on the barrel, making the muzzle dip downward with each "recoiling" effect of the gas block chamber. High speed film has long since proven the violent muzzle movement of the AK design. These accuracy short comeings are by design. The AK was designed to be a full auto weapon that would function in the most adverse conditions. 1) the deep chamber throat lowers chamber pressures and reduces the posibility of blowing out primers. 2) the extra large gas port and very short piston cylinder ensures a full bolt cycle -no matter what- the conditions. And the super heavy recoil spring and bolt mass has absolutely no chance of a hang up while contacting the very short "dirty" cylinder walls of the gas block while going into full battery. 3) The tall gas block over the barrel has an advantage of air cooling the system as best as can be expected from the full auto heat build. So there you have it, a semi auto that is a flyer king due to its full auto heritage. I thought it would be neat to tame the specs a bit to see if my evaluation has real world merit. So I designed and built this gas system with a 5 position gas plug that for the most part eliminates the barrel torquing of the original. A full utility patent has been filed with the USPTO a few months ago. Some range testing is still in order but it functions quite well.

Lastly -- milled vs stamped reliability of receivers really only matters if you let your recoil springs go past point of replacement...  A bolt carrier, especially one of AK weight, impacting the rear of a milled receiver will cause fractures in the metal that will develop into visible cracks over time.

[felix]

BM303 - did you decide on what you're going to pick?

[mdi_weapon]

I realize it is still a subject of heated debate but I actually like stamped AKs better than milled if you are talking about long term ruggedness. A hard-use (abused) milled receiver tends to crack where beat up stamped receivers tends to dent or ding. You can hammer out dents and dings. Cracks may be welded but that is a fix left for an equipped shop. A good 1.5mm thick stamped receiver is probably my favorite but those are sometimes hard to find.

I will also admit that I am slightly annoyed with current AK prices. My opinion of what amounts to a reasonable price is likely somewhat biased as I still remember being able to walk into a gun store in the 90s and buying a solid AK for around $325-$350. Those days are long gone but $1500 for an AKM? lol...no.

As for AR reliability, many of them, even the expensive ones, need some tuning. Before any of my ARs go to the range, they get pulled apart and everything is double checked. I am amazed at how often gas tubes and gas blocks are not properly aligned (especially considering it isn't that difficult). I guess some are just slapped together in order to meet demand regardless of price point. I have also found several ARs which have an overly tight fit between the bolt and bolt carrier - enough to where it keeps the bolt from rotating properly. I suppose they plan for them to be broken in with live fire but that is just needless annoyance. Another common problem is a weak extractor spring - an easy $4 fix. A little tuning and tweaking before the first trip to the range can avoid all of that. I don't remember the last time one of my ARs had a stoppage of any kind and certainly not while just playing around at the range. They have a ton of rounds put through them on every outing. Maybe I need to write a thread on how to properly tune ARs...

Splitting the difference between the AR and AK. Another fine example of a rifle which does so almost perfectly is the South Korean K2 (civilian version: Daewoo DR200). I would love to have one of the latest models from South Korea but they are banned from import. I do however have one of the DR200 rifles which were imported by Kimber in the 1990s. That rifle is both accurate and incredibly reliable. With a few slight mods, AR triggers work and allow for much more usable accuracy as the factory triggers are heavy. With a few parts swaps, mine is now 922r compliant and free of its original thumbhole stock. If you like the AK or the AR, you would like this rifle. The scope shown in the pic often comes off as it has very good iron sights. I also occasionally mount a 3x prism scope to it for quicker target acquisition:

[TJNewton]

As for AR reliability, many of them, even the expensive ones, need some tuning. Before any of my ARs go to the range, they get pulled apart and everything is double checked. I am amazed at how often gas tubes and gas blocks are not properly aligned (especially considering it isn't that difficult). I guess some are just slapped together in order to meet demand regardless of price point. I have also found several ARs which have an overly tight fit between the bolt and bolt carrier - enough to where it keeps the bolt from rotating properly. I suppose they plan for them to be broken in with live fire but that is just needless annoyance. Another common problem is a weak extractor spring - an easy $4 fix. A little tuning and tweaking before the first trip to the range can avoid all of that. I don't remember the last time one of my ARs had a stoppage of any kind and certainly not while just playing around at the range. They have a ton of rounds put through them on every outing. Maybe I need to write a thread on how to properly tune ARs...

While I definitely prefer the VZ platform over the AR -- more powerful caliber, higher reliability, etc -- I did gain a newfound respect for the AR platform when I recently bought a Ruger AR556.  The AR556 doesn't have the highest reputation in the AR community, but I've found it to be a good and reliable rifle.  Still, it, as well as the high-dollar AR's owned by my friends, are overshadowed by my VZ2008/SKS's.  It's a matter of taste.

As far as having to tune AR15's, that's a legitimate concern but not at all isolated to AR15's.  We all had to "tune" our VZ58/VZ2008's -- tabbed carrier, widen the safety selector notch, upgrade the gas piston, enhanced sights, etc.  My SKS's definitely benefited from a trigger job, the first one done by Murray, the second by Kivaari, and the third probably done in 1972, sitting on a log in a swamp while using a nail file, wet sand, and a cup of dirty diesel.

[RSR]

While I definitely prefer the VZ platform over the AR -- more powerful caliber, higher reliability, etc -- I did gain a newfound respect for the AR platform when I recently bought a Ruger AR556.  The AR556 doesn't have the highest reputation in the AR community, but I've found it to be a good and reliable rifle.  Still, it, as well as the high-dollar AR's owned by my friends, are overshadowed by my VZ2008/SKS's.  It's a matter of taste.

As far as having to tune AR15's, that's a legitimate concern but not at all isolated to AR15's.  We all had to "tune" our VZ58/VZ2008's -- tabbed carrier, widen the safety selector notch, upgrade the gas piston, enhanced sights, etc.  My SKS's definitely benefited from a trigger job, the first one done by Murray, the second by Kivaari, and the third probably done in 1972, sitting on a log in a swamp while using a nail file, wet sand, and a cup of dirty diesel.

I agree all ARs need tuned, especially the first outing -- BUT, they are tunable with different strengths of buffer springs, weights, of buffers, etc...  VZs currently run as is, for better or worse.  AKs do have an xtra power recoil spring from Wolff.  Buf few weapon systems are as tunable as ARs. 

I have no experience with the Daewoos, so can't comment there... 

But for AR cleaning, if just putting a few rounds through with new shooters, I will get my bolt completely coated with oil and grease on tail so that  carbon just wipes off.  Generally, if only shooting a couple mags, the oil and grease keeps the carbon in suspension and the excess just blows off when the bolt cycles...  If you're putting 500-1000 rounds through your gun per day, then yes cleaning is a pain.  I have dropped bolts in a supersonic cleaner w/ simple green (my favorite cleaner for the supersonics since ph neutral -- use it for car parts and gun parts), or dunked them into slip 2000s carbon killer too...

[mdi_weapon]

Why are DR200s cool? A schematic is worth a thousand words:



The AR556 is still DI - the SR series is more fun - especially in the 7.62 variety.

[RSR]

Weaponsman posted a piece on weapons reliability.  Seeing as how this thread diverged, worth reading there: http://weaponsman.com/?p=33752