Author Topic: Looking for my first rifle!  (Read 19424 times)

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Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2016, 06:32:54 AM »
Another "mil-spec" AR bites the dust. Whatever you do, don't buy one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCUjjA2F4U
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 06:42:06 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2016, 04:25:49 AM »
Why are DR200s cool? A schematic is worth a thousand words:



The AR556 is still DI - the SR series is more fun - especially in the 7.62 variety.


Good luck finding one and/or spares (the Daewoo). If you do, chances are it's got a 1/12" twist rate that won't stabilize those touted 77 gr. bullets.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 04:28:11 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2016, 05:28:14 AM »
Why are DR200s cool? A schematic is worth a thousand words:



The AR556 is still DI - the SR series is more fun - especially in the 7.62 variety.


Good luck finding one and/or spares (the Daewoo). If you do, chances are it's got a 1/12" twist rate that won't stabilize those touted 77 gr. bullets.

Isn't that hard to find replacement parts for it. If it were, I guess it is lucky for me that I bought a spare barrel that fits it eons ago and it is 1 in 7.3" RH twist. However, the barrel that is currently on it is in great condition and I will not have to worry about swapping them out any time soon.

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2016, 05:47:18 AM »
Another "mil-spec" AR bites the dust. Whatever you do, don't buy one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCUjjA2F4U

Mil-spec? It is a Radical Firearms AR in that video. You might as well post up videos of IO AKs biting the dust while you are at it and claim that is as good as AKMs get. God knows every third IO AK video on YouTube is about one of them going tits up so there certainly isn't a shortage of dead "AK" videos available.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2016, 06:56:19 AM »
Another "mil-spec" AR bites the dust. Whatever you do, don't buy one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCUjjA2F4U

Mil-spec? It is a Radical Firearms AR in that video. You might as well post up videos of IO AKs biting the dust while you are at it and claim that is as good as AKMs get. God knows every third IO AK video on YouTube is about one of them going tits up so there certainly isn't a shortage of dead "AK" videos available.

I advised the OP to avoid US-made AK clones, IO and Century in particular.

I had an Armalite that started eating it's own gas rings after 400 rounds...ARs are dependent on too many tiny, fragile parts that don't hold up.

You need to send Rob Ski one of your high-end ARs and see how it holds up to one of his torture tests.

Most AR "manufacturers" are merely "assemblers" of "mil-spec" AR parts put out by a handful of actual manufacturers (e.g. the lower receivers).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 07:34:50 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2016, 07:07:21 AM »
BM303 - did you decide on what you're going to pick?

I think BM303 quit reading this thread around post #50 but for whatever it's worth, around #46 he said he was waiting for the VZ to get back in stock.

The good news: thus far, no one has suggested OP purchase a Sig ---xi...

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2016, 01:26:14 PM »
Ideally stuff like the cam pin, gas rings, firing pin, standard buffer spring, bolt, etc, would last to 5k rounds.  But that's about the max I'd personally run them if in a combat zone or serious competition before replacing...   So desiring a 5k minimum lifespan -- yes, the rifle fell a little short. 

But the cam pin is a $5 part and takes less than 2 minutes to replace.  A spare bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and gas rings are all common components many AR owners and soldiers keep in their Magpul or BCM pistol grip in anticipation of potential issues. 

I think the issues robski has identified with some of the American made AKs with bad receivers, trunnions, etc, which basically render the full gun unsafe and are also not field repairable are much more significant issues than a broken cam pin.  But YMMV.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2016, 03:50:46 AM »
Ideally stuff like the cam pin, gas rings, firing pin, standard buffer spring, bolt, etc, would last to 5k rounds.  But that's about the max I'd personally run them if in a combat zone or serious competition before replacing...   So desiring a 5k minimum lifespan -- yes, the rifle fell a little short. 

But the cam pin is a $5 part and takes less than 2 minutes to replace.  A spare bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and gas rings are all common components many AR owners and soldiers keep in their Magpul or BCM pistol grip in anticipation of potential issues. 

I think the issues robski has identified with some of the American made AKs with bad receivers, trunnions, etc, which basically render the full gun unsafe and are also not field repairable are much more significant issues than a broken cam pin.  But YMMV.

Well those are cheaply made US AKs -- not in the same league with the average Com Bloc AK as far as durability and reliability. Probably has something to do with the fact that labor is so much cheaper in the former Com Bloc than the US -- and that AKs are built, not assembled like ARs.

Not that a competitively priced AK couldn't be built in the US (e.g. DDI) but !@## companies like IO and Century cut corners to maximize profits and stiff their customers. Screw those companies. They produce junk at premium prices.

But if a major part of an AR is "expected" to fail within 5 k rounds, that tells you something, it's not a SHTF survival rifle to pull you through when the world goes to hell in a hand bucket. !@##, there are stamped Type I AKs still in the field almost 70 years old, still going bang when you pull the trigger.

You can't get around the fact that the AR15 "platform" is weak, both in terms of it's engineering and it's choice of cartridge. America deserves better than that. Shame on those who continue to promote the M16/M4/AR15 failures.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 05:57:55 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2016, 06:49:20 PM »
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273885


Needs tab and CNC threaded barrel extension ... And Horse's side rail.  First variant made in USA. I have had 4, no issues with mine.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline bm303

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2016, 02:54:14 AM »
BM303 - did you decide on what you're going to pick?

I think BM303 quit reading this thread around post #50 but for whatever it's worth, around #46 he said he was waiting for the VZ to get back in stock.

The good news: thus far, no one has suggested OP purchase a Sig ---xi...

Haha, so much of this talk is chinese to me but I am still vaguely following along.

Anyways, I am going to get a VZ-58 when they come back in stock. I have been collecting CZ pistols and the VZ-58 seems like another piece of Czech perfection to add to my collection. I am a bit tight on money after decking out a SP-01, PCR, buying tons of accessories and a safe but I am still gonna get the VZ-58 when I can find one. I definitely want the wood impregnated furniture too.

Thanks for all the help guys. I am lurking but a lot of the discussion here I am not familiar with at all so I don't have much to say.  8)

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2016, 06:56:21 AM »

Haha, so much of this talk is chinese to me but I am still vaguely following along.

Anyways, I am going to get a VZ-58 when they come back in stock. I have been collecting CZ pistols and the VZ-58 seems like another piece of Czech perfection to add to my collection. I am a bit tight on money after decking out a SP-01, PCR, buying tons of accessories and a safe but I am still gonna get the VZ-58 when I can find one. I definitely want the wood impregnated furniture too.

Thanks for all the help guys. I am lurking but a lot of the discussion here I am not familiar with at all so I don't have much to say.  8)

lol - we may have gotten slightly carried away for a first rifle thread.

Yes - you can wipe out a bank account with firearms and accessories pretty quickly. I try to set a "reasonable" guns and gear annual budget but it rarely survives beyond mid-May. This year it made it to the third week of July (I cheated by doubling my initial budget amount from last year...and I may have accidentally filed all reloading gear under "home improvements").

If you do not have a .22LR rifle, give some serious thought to getting one. Trigger time on a .22LR rifle is not as inexpensive as it used to be but it is still inexpensive when compared to the cost of decent centerfire rifle ammo. When it comes to the cost of the rifle, they are still very budget friendly as you can get a reasonably reliable and accurate semi auto .22 rifle for under $150.

If you want to develop your rifle skills with larger centerfire calibers and get the most bang for the buck, buy an accurate bolt action at some point. It doesn't have to be a top-tier bench rest rifle but one that is at least capable of 1-1.5 MOA. How is that bang for the buck? Most people tear through ammo with semi-autos (burning through mags is fun) but in doing so they do not pay as much attention to each shot or why it ended up where it did. A bolt action makes you slow down and pay attention to each round and where it hits the target. You can do the same with a semi-auto rifle (especially a SAPR) but you have to exercise a lot more self control in doing so (or load only 3-5 rounds in the mag at a time).

Most people with a semi-auto will fire 5-20 rounds at a target and then disregard ones that didn't land exactly where they wanted them with less thought about what happened. There are more excuses available with most semi-autos ("meh - it's only a 3MOA rifle...") With a bolt action, the same people are usually more concerned about where each round hits and why.  Also, with a 1MOA rifle you run out of excuses pretty quickly (fallback excuse if you need it: "bleep scope isn't holding zero! Mount must have loosened up..."). If you want to entirely eliminate excuses get a 1/4-1/2MOA rifle chambered in a caliber that gives you the option to use bullets with ballistic coefficients of .500 or better, mount a $3000 scope to it with lapped, six screw steel rings on a one piece steel scope base that is properly bedded to the action and Loctite everything. Then load it with match grade or better ammo. Any bullet which doesn't land within 1/2" of where you wanted it is your fault. Hence, that is probably the most annoying rifle on the planet.

There is a caveat to buying a higher-end bolt action - they will spoil your trigger finger and mil-spec triggers will feel like complete trash from that point forward. End result: all of your semi-autos will be $175-$300 more expensive because that is how much it costs to make them feel anything close to the trigger on your precision bolt action. Other than the increased cost, that is not a bad thing as a really good trigger will do wonders for the usable accuracy of any rifle. Unless your rifle comes out of the box with a really good trigger, that is the first thing to fix immediately after you verify that everything else is working properly. I upgrade the triggers on my rifles before anything else - before optics or any gadgets. My usual order for rifle upgrades is: trigger; sling (people often forget how important a sling is until they are lugging their rifle around in the field); optics/sights (and mounts for the same); chassis/stock; bipod (if it is that type of rifle); and then everything else in whatever order suits you so long as it does not include a rail mounted toaster oven or the like.



Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2016, 08:01:25 AM »
BM303 - did you decide on what you're going to pick?

I think BM303 quit reading this thread around post #50 but for whatever it's worth, around #46 he said he was waiting for the VZ to get back in stock.

The good news: thus far, no one has suggested OP purchase a Sig ---xi...

Haha, so much of this talk is chinese to me but I am still vaguely following along.

Anyways, I am going to get a VZ-58 when they come back in stock. I have been collecting CZ pistols and the VZ-58 seems like another piece of Czech perfection to add to my collection. I am a bit tight on money after decking out a SP-01, PCR, buying tons of accessories and a safe but I am still gonna get the VZ-58 when I can find one. I definitely want the wood impregnated furniture too.

Thanks for all the help guys. I am lurking but a lot of the discussion here I am not familiar with at all so I don't have much to say.  8)


Well, a Vz58 is certainly a good choice, if it's in 7.62x39, and certainly better than a lot of other semi-auto rifles. If you get one, get a CSA / Czechpoint rather than the Century Vz2008 or whatever. The CSA rifle costs about twice as much but you won't have to worry about the misfire "gremlin" that Century VZs are prone to, or having to get it fixed and finding someone competent to do the weld job.

However, I would still say that a good import AK (in 7.62x39) would be the best choice.

To recap:

Better trigger

Much better parts, magazine and accessory availability

Most are 1/2 the price of a CSA Vz.

With Hitlery and the Kleptocrats likely coming to power next year, we can count on "assault weapons," magazine and ammo bans coming up, AKs and ARs are probably going to be first on the chopping block for bans. Also, the money you save as opposed to a CSA Vz can be put towards stockpiling magazines and ammo -- 3,000 rounds of good Com Bloc ammo (e.g. Golden Tiger) can be had for @ $700. Buy it cheap and stack it deep, now, before it's too late.

The thing is, being less known/infamous than AKs and ARs, the Vz seems to escape the scrutiny of the gun banners (e.g. in Canada and Commiefornia). Even if AKs are banned, you could probably get a VZ later on, at least for a while.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:24:04 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2016, 02:49:00 PM »
If you do not have a .22LR rifle, give some serious thought to getting one. Trigger time on a .22LR rifle is not as inexpensive as it used to be but it is still inexpensive when compared to the cost of decent centerfire rifle ammo. When it comes to the cost of the rifle, they are still very budget friendly as you can get a reasonably reliable and accurate semi auto .22 rifle for under $150.

If you want to develop your rifle skills with larger centerfire calibers and get the most bang for the buck, buy an accurate bolt action at some point. It doesn't have to be a top-tier bench rest rifle but one that is at least capable of 1-1.5 MOA. How is that bang for the buck? Most people tear through ammo with semi-autos (burning through mags is fun) but in doing so they do not pay as much attention to each shot or why it ended up where it did. A bolt action makes you slow down and pay attention to each round and where it hits the target. You can do the same with a semi-auto rifle (especially a SAPR) but you have to exercise a lot more self control in doing so (or load only 3-5 rounds in the mag at a time).

Bolt actions typically have more felt recoil than semi-autos in same caliber.  Aftermarket buttpads can help, but the kick is still there. 
I agree on the bolt action however -- and my first 22lr was a bolt action actually, but if you prefer, there are Remington Pump actions, Henry lever actions, someone (H&R?) makes a break action, etc actions, all in 22lr as well.  So think single shot, not bolt... 
Main benefit of manual load 22lr is that they are definitely safer for new shooters (if they drop the gun, there's not a live round in the chamber among other benefits).  (They are also incredibly fun and quiet when suppressed; subsonic ammo and you're at air rifle if not less levels of noise.)
Point here, is that a single shot 22lr is mighty fine training rifle with most of the benefits of a centerfire bolt action rifle, excluding only ballistic capability -- and will likely never be banned, so they're not a top priority for immediate acquisition.  There is a chance that single shot weapons with detachable magazines could be banned, but if the powers that be go that far off the reservation we've got way bigger problems at hand...

With any 22lr if you're wanting to really work on fundamentals, I would strongly recommend getting good ammo like cci minimags...  Otherwise, there's quite a bit of ballistic variance from cartridge to cartridge, which makes it more difficult to identify things you as the shooter are doing wrong versus variances due to the ammo.  Now, in modern combat doctrine, a certain degree of shot dispersion is a good thing -- but that's an entirely separate tangent but useful for understanding some the issues with variance inherent in the Barnaul cartridges (Bears, Wolf, etc, brands -- current Russian 7.62x39 military ammo maker)...

Lastly for a SAPR, semi auto precision rifle, you're really hard pressed to beat a accurized AR (free float a barrel, upgrade to a higher quality precision bolt, and adding a good trigger to any off the rack AR actually make a tremendous difference to accuracy -- with a little extra upgrade your muzzle device, and experiment with buffer weights and springs, -- and then if you are willing to tinker put in a premium barrel) on the accuracy end of the spectrum, unless you have a substantial $ to invest. 
Cheap bolt actions vs mid-market ARs with free floated barrels, you're looking at very similar accuracy with similar rates of fire...
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 02:53:19 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2016, 03:35:03 PM »
However, I would still say that a good import AK (in 7.62x39) would be the best choice.

To recap:

Better trigger

Much better parts, magazine and accessory availability

Most are 1/2 the price of a CSA Vz.

With Hitlery and the Kleptocrats likely coming to power next year, we can count on "assault weapons," magazine and ammo bans coming up, AKs and ARs are probably going to be first on the chopping block for bans. Also, the money you save as opposed to a CSA Vz can be put towards stockpiling magazines and ammo -- 3,000 rounds of good Com Bloc ammo (e.g. Golden Tiger) can be had for @ $700. Buy it cheap and stack it deep, now, before it's too late.

The thing is, being less known/infamous than AKs and ARs, the Vz seems to escape the scrutiny of the gun banners (e.g. in Canada and Commiefornia). Even if AKs are banned, you could probably get a VZ later on, at least for a while.

Only AKs worth buying for 1/2 the price, and even then more than that, of a CSA VZ58 are the Zastava Yugo and Cugir WASRs.  But in the current market, $700 is entry level here.  The Yugos are far superior to WASRs IMO, but lack a chrome-lined barrel if that is important to you. 
To note, there are some good to very good condition Chinese SKSes currently available at $400, and I think some of the new unissued Yugo SKSes remain available @ $500.  Magazines are integral to these guns leaving you needing cheaper stripper clips rather than magazines, and SKSes are typically more accurate than AKs as well.  On a budget, looking for a semi-auto 7.62x39 rifle, SKSes are tough to beat right now. 
VZ58s are hands down a better carbine than the SKS could ever be in that role -- and I think the VZ58 to be overall much more versatile a firearm than the SKS while maintaining a sufficient level of accuracy to utilize the potential of the 7.62x39 round at all typical ranges.
As far as utility goes as a general purpose rifle and for an average specimen of each, I don't see either the SKS or AK being definitively better than the other.  As a combat long arm on the modern battlefield, the AK is generally superior and always superior if including all variants and irrespective of cost... 
If wanting to modernize the SKS with new stock, extended mags, etc, bear in mind you're triggering 922r, which involves a fair bit more cost and considerations and is generally more easily done on other weapon systems -- and really only makes sense for the SKS if you're in a location where you have restrictions limiting you to the SKS or you just really want an optimized SKS for whatever reason... 
High end AKs vs SKSes: AKs are generally superior, but 2-3x the cost. 
Low end AKs vs SKSes, SKS are generally superior dollar for dollar, as modern day sub $500 AKs are very low quality.
Mid prices on each, see earlier comments.

AK trigger is really only definitively better if you opt for an aftermarket IMO -- yes, the standard TAPCOs are an aftermarket trigger (and a good one relative to OE) and is superior to most OE triggers which are really only found on AK pistol imports where no 922r is required...  Polishing OE triggers/fcgs brings them close to tapco levels, but overall manufacturing precision seems to be higher on tapcos if not the material quality...
And that AK trigger comes with the penalty of substantially worse safety, ergos, and weight, among other drawbacks already noted.

Any gun ban will likely be feature based rather than model/list based.  I think the gun banners learned their lesson w/ all the loophole issues when they've decided to ban by list in the past...  The VZ58 will not be immune under a feature ban.

I do not think that ammo will be successfully banned for any length of time; issue is more one of temporary scarcity due to panic, or restricted supply due to legal requirements, executive orders, or global events.  And yes, there could be permanent price increases, greater than inflation or currency market related increases, depending on causes/events driving price increases.
Personally, I'd get a 1-2k rounds on hand for immediate/anticpated training and range time needs for the first year of ownership/use (500-1000 rounds for a weekend carbine course is normal).  Nothing's worse than a new gun, but not having any ammo for it to shoot.  So having ammo on hand in a given caliber before you buy a gun in that caliber is advisable -- and don't buy ammo at gun ranges unless they require it; prices can sometimes make outrageous gun show pricing look modest!  And if they require you to buy ammo there, get your required fix on that first visit and look for a new range. 
And then put 2-3x that initial amount of ammo away for a reserve to allow you to continue to train past year 1, time future buys for when prices are low(er), use the ammo to sell/trade for other firearms-related things you might want or need when ammo prices are high, and always have at least some emergency supply. 
Basically, whatever you plan to spend on your new rifle, double it so that you have a budget to put that same amount of money into it again for mags, ammo, spare parts, optics, or upgrades to furniture, parts, etc.
And take your initial budget, and triple it if you're looking to receive professional training/coaching.  Look to gun clubs in your area, and you'll often find local fellow shooters willing to coach you for no to low cost.  The appleseed events look pretty great too, are affordable, and appear to be quite similar to training I was fortunate to receive as a kid through 4-H and Boy Scout Shooting Sports as well as Hunter/Firearm Youth Education put on by the local rural sheriff's office and NRA club/range.  Have been wanting to attend an appleseed for a refresher on that style of shooting (and to do it w/ an M1 carbine actually but may settle for a 10/22 M1 carbine clone build)...

I still stand behind stripped AR15 lower receivers (and parts kits, including buffers kits and stocks, to match if your budget allows) being a very prudent investment right now if you can find the $100 or less needed for the purchase.  Effectively and legally, each stripped lower is the "firearm" and the primary component of government concern.
At least for present day, I don't see any retroactive gun bans occurring and/or being enforceable at the national level, or any president willing to spend the political capital necessary to pass, implement, and enforce such draconian policies...  So anything in your safe by January of next year, should be able to remain in your safe for at least a few more presidential elections...  State-level politics are a different matter and with the US supreme court in so much flux especially for 2A cases, state-specific requirements/landscapes could change quickly and drastically, but quite unlikely here in Texas but more so elsewhere.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 04:05:50 PM by RSR »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2016, 05:57:14 PM »
Veprs (still imported from Russia) for $700 new -- can't get much better than that in a stamped AK (RPK receiver, thick chrome lined barrel).

http://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/


Yugos $589 new:

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/ak47-yugo-zastava-n-pap-fixed-wood-stock-detail.html?Itemid=0

Hungarian AMD-65s, $539 new:

https://www.classicfirearms.com/amd-65-7-62x39-rifle-with-side-fold-stock-and-black-poly-pistol-grips


Etc. etc. etc. Not to mention a lot of good used Chinese, Saigas, Bulgarians, etc. on the market.

Just get on gun watcher and search.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 06:41:33 PM by MeatAxe »