Front Sight Firearms Training Institute sketchiness??

[newrival]

Okay, for a fact I know their training is top-tier. I'm not doubting their facilities or training, but more on their marketing strategy??

I have a friend who, with his family, spent several thousands and got their memberships early on give or take 10 years ago.
The extremely outdated website list like 1 class 2-day class for like $2000, or some lifetime memberships ranging from $6000 to $15000 (outrageous I know)

I recently started a payment plan from a Front Sight "Ambassador" at one of the popular Crossroads of the West Gunshows.
I mean, given that you have a booth, I'm assuming they have been vetted and not sketchy?
At first, it was $500 for a "lifetime."After some haggling, we went down to $300 (which was a STEAL given I never know about them and for lifetime)

Couple days ago, my friend showed me on eBay of people selling the SAME Diamond Lifetime Memberships for $20-$30 (with 100% rating, 1k+ reviews)
I'm thinking of spending 20$ and trying it and hope its not a scam (even if it is its just 20$). But this is MUCH better than the 300$.
If it comes out to be true, I was scammed (so far 70$ out of the 300, but better to get out now then later)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Sight-Diamond-Lifetime-Membership-for-firearms-training-/232003830844?hash=item360481843c:g:mPEAAOSwCQNWcxPo

Help! What's happening here? Am I being scammed one-way or another for the cost of this??

[Tok36]

Can you not call the company and ask them if these memberships are legit?

[newrival]

Can you not call the company and ask them if these memberships are legit?

I'm fairly sure both of the memberships are legit, as these "ambassadors" get these certificates they can sell. But I will call tomorrow.

What I'm not understanding really is how they can list a $2000/course or $15000 membership online, then try to have a 3rd Party sell it at a gunshow for $500, and then have some people selling the lifetime for $20? Why is there such a GREAT variation in price? Whos the one scamming for more money?

Like I know a lot of people have gone there and love it, but I'm 99.9% sure they did NOT paid the $2000/course or $15000/lifetime to take the class

[Tok36]

Sounds fishy indeed. Maybe there is some sort of difference in the different priced memberships.

[Kenneth]

This is nothing new. I have been offered diamond memberships for free but I don't live close to them.

Anyone who paid that insane amount of money to join is just plain retarded.

I have heard that there facilities are nice but I don't know about the instruction you receive. I don't see an instructor putting a whole lot into a class when he's not getting $500-$1000 per student.


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[AZ_CZ]

Just buy a case of ammo and watch you tube videos. Throw in some video game hands on: BANG -- top tier operator.












 
Sounds like a scam

[newrival]

This is nothing new. I have been offered diamond memberships for free but I don't live close to them.

Anyone who paid that insane amount of money to join is just plain retarded.

I have heard that there facilities are nice but I don't know about the instruction you receive. I don't see an instructor putting a whole lot into a class when he's not getting $500-$1000 per student.

I live in soCal so its like just a 4-hr drive to Vegas. Basically will make a weekend trip to Vegas a long with their 2-day Defensive Handgun course.
So it's a win-win at this price. Other handgun courses nearby are like 150$ for 1 day s its not really that great of a deal.

Just buy a case of ammo and watch you tube videos. Throw in some video game hands on: BANG -- top tier operator.
Sounds like a scam

Yea that's what I mainly do. videos are range time!. Yea SOMEONE is scamming I just don't know who...

[DOC 1500]

Don't spend any money until you do more research. Whether their instruction is right or wrong they make you do it their way or the highway.

[jimsjrt]

You mean I have to do the Weaver stance over Isosceles? I know several guys that go every year. If I have a chance I would go, not my first choice.

[Pynckone]

I  have a Front Sight membership and travel 3-4 times a year from the east coast to attend their courses. 

On one hand, its a great marketing operation.  Their product (firearm/self defense training) is top notch.  My costs are close to local comparable training classes, so its essentially a wash. 

You don't necessarily need a membership to attend.  There are plenty of people that have course certificates that will enable you to attend the firearms courses.

Having said that, there are many people who are angry at the Front Sight programs.  Most of these people bought their memberships at the outset of Front Sight, buying them at prices in excess of $10,000. FS could not keep their operation running with the limited number of memberships they sold.  So they changed strategies and went for more memberships at a lower cost.  Since they adapted that strategy, their attendance and numbers are way up.

I have taken about 20 courses, some more than once.  My total cost is about $1200, over about 7 years.  My membership money is matched in an account that I can use to buy firearm related equipment in their pro shop.  I have cashed in about $400 in credits, buying holsters, tac clothing, etc.  Pricing is full retail.  I still have a 4 figure balance in my account.
And a firearm in the pipeline. 

I can understand people that think FS is some type of scheme.  I am cautious that it not;  however, I believe the value I have received far exceeds what I have spent.  Those that paid a lot more money probably don't share my feelings.

If I lived closer, I would attend classes monthly.

Edited afterthought:  Yes they do charge commercial accounts and individuals $2000 for individual courses.  Not the most cost effective way to attend.

[Independent George]

I'm a Frontsight member, and have taken eight days worth of classes with them, and can confirm that:

1. Their instruction on the fundamentals are still top notch, but
2. According to the long-time members (and instructors) I've met, the advanced courses have been dumbed down to attract more members (that is, dollars). I have no firsthand experience with this, but I trust the people I've heard it from.
3. People who buy memberships typically get a stack of transferrable coupons (which is what you saw for sale). They are often sold either for profit, or to offset the price of their own membership.
4. Their entire business model is a pyramid scheme, but not a scam (in that those $20 memberships are always redeemed with full rights). They sell lifetime memberships with the expectation that people will show up twice then forget about it.
5. Those people then transfer coupons to friends, who get bombarded with the same 'LAST CHANCE to get Super-duper Primo Membership for just $5,000!' sales pitches. They are easily ignored, but sometimes they do get some interesting deals (for example, 'free' private lessons).
6. They pay their instructors crap, and treat them accordingly. Consequently, most of their best instructors have all either left, or are in the process of leaving. That's not a big deal for the basic courses, but I've heard (no firsthand experience) that the advanced courses have been dumbed down as a result.

I personally bought a lifetime membership from a family member for $200, then chipped in another $1,500 for 'Presidential' membership with another three people that allows us private lessons. For that $1,500, I got six days of private instruction plus a week in Vegas, so I've already got my money's worth; while I definitely plan on returning, I could go the rest of my life without taking another class and still come out ahead. Retail-priced memberships, though, are definitely not worth it, especially when you can buy discounted memberships so easily.

[Independent George]

TLDR version: the training is legit, especially for fundamentals (which, as a newbie, is precisely what I'm most interested in). The business model is shady, but not a scam; you can easily get far more out of it what you paid in, but their continuing operation depends on the fact that most people don't.

Never pay the retail price advertised on their website. The discounted memberships are a steal if you make the effort to attend classes.

To the OP: the guy selling you the membership for $300 isn't scamming you. He offered it for a price, which you skillfully negotiated down and accepted. I understand the frustration with discovering those ebay sellers, but my personal opinion is that:

1. You had an agreement, and you should live up to it.
2. You're still getting a good deal. You're still coming out way ahead once you complete your next 2-day class.

[newrival]

TLDR version: the training is legit, especially for fundamentals (which, as a newbie, is precisely what I'm most interested in). The business model is shady, but not a scam; you can easily get far more out of it what you paid in, but their continuing operation depends on the fact that most people don't.

Never pay the retail price advertised on their website. The discounted memberships are a steal if you make the effort to attend classes.

To the OP: the guy selling you the membership for $300 isn't scamming you. He offered it for a price, which you skillfully negotiated down and accepted. I understand the frustration with discovering those ebay sellers, but my personal opinion is that:

1. You had an agreement, and you should live up to it.
2. You're still getting a good deal. You're still coming out way ahead once you complete your next 2-day class.

Well I mean I can still cancel that was the great part about it. I called them and told them about it and they were very courteous about it. I havent cancelled just yet. But if I can get at 20$ for their Diamond (which is all that I'm looking for) it's a better deal.

I called in and they said that the 300$ I'm buying is the "Ambassador," But like i said those perks of Ambassador is not what I need.
So basically, the 20$ is legit then.

[Independent George]

Well I mean I can still cancel that was the great part about it. I called them and told them about it and they were very courteous about it. I havent cancelled just yet. But if I can get at 20$ for their Diamond (which is all that I'm looking for) it's a better deal.

I called in and they said that the 300$ I'm buying is the "Ambassador," But like i said those perks of Ambassador is not what I need.
So basically, the 20$ is legit then.

Ah, fair point. I misunderstood you - I'm sorry about that.

In that case, yes, definitely go with the diamond.