Author Topic: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP  (Read 7578 times)

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Offline Boris_LA

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2016, 12:02:18 AM »
Yes, but I cannot figure exactly why Hodgden greatly reduces the load data for the  hap as compared. I think it must be because the 125 Hap is listed at a .356 dia bullet for some reason, and the 115 Hap is not, nor are the XTP of either weight.
125gr HAPs have to be seated deep. The reduced volume in the case dictate lighter powder charge.

Offline 1SOW

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2016, 12:26:27 AM »
What Boris said above^^^

Look at any FP or JHP from the side.  You'll see a "straight portion" of the bullet body extending above the case mouth.  If that straight section of the body extends too far above the case mouth,  it will contact a CZ chamber wall where it tapers in at the barrel. 
CZs do have a "shorter" chamber designed for a NATO-type round nose bullet.  Virtually any standard factory round nose bullet will run just fine.   

NATO nor European countries use JHPs.
Added:
 I was curious.    I just did the push and plunk tests using the Hornady 124 XTP bullet.
Pistol bbl:  CZ 75 Shadow ...Dirty chamber
Win case
Multiple Push tests in 3 different test cases showed 1.143-1.145" with full contact in the chamber.
Plunk Test:  I seated a Hornady 124 XTP bullet at a 1.141" OAL and it dropped into the chamber with a metallic  clink on the case mouth.  It spun easily and dumped out cleanly.

This 1.141" OAL is "Just Short of Full Contact" in this chamber.  A safe USABLE OAL would have to be shorter to allow for reloader, press and component variations.  Using the  -.015" safety margin below the push test findings would mean a 124 GR Hornady XTP  cartridge  OAL no longer than 1.128" in MY 75 Shadow.

It runs fine much longer in my Sig.



 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 12:45:01 AM by 1SOW »

Offline Towns

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2016, 12:16:23 PM »
You got almost exactly the same velocities I get with that powder at each grain increment, except I was using a coated FP lead bullet. 

I'm surprised since I usually get higher velocities with my lead compared to jacketed.  Maybe yours are seated deeper??  My OAL is the same as yours, but my bullet is probably shorter.
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2016, 12:37:19 PM »
I haven't done a full work up, but my "where am I" string with PD 124gr JHP and HP-38 was 4.0gr for 1023 feet/sec @OAL 1.085.  So I'm right there with you.

Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2016, 11:52:00 PM »
I haven't done a full work up, but my "where am I" string with PD 124gr JHP and HP-38 was 4.0gr for 1023 feet/sec @OAL 1.085.  So I'm right there with you.

That is good to hear. No changes in the Earth's gravitational fields effecting the flux capacitor this time! I may just run with the 4.0 gr at this time for its intended purpose. If it will run the gun and hit some steel, it works. Did not seem noticeably dirty, slight smoking of the cases, but with that gun they end up close to me on the bench.

Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2016, 12:02:48 AM »
Getting back to the original numbers, the progression looks pretty good, and although it was not my intention, it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.

Anyone who has used it for years have any idea? It appears 1200 is not out of the question!

Offline IDescribe

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2016, 10:52:06 AM »
...it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.

... It appears 1200 is not out of the question!

What is exciting about 1200 feet/sec?  Why do you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200?

« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 12:07:05 PM by IDescribe »

Offline Boris_LA

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2016, 11:51:05 AM »
Quote from: copemech link=topic=82210.msg604930#msg604930 date=1472875368it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff
[/quote
The only sure way to find out is keep loading it up until it blows up in your hands. Then, if you survive, take one step back. That will be the limit, but is it worth the risk?

Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2016, 01:57:46 AM »
...it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.

... It appears 1200 is not out of the question!

What is exciting about 1200 feet/sec?  Why do you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200?

ID, I did not say it was exciting, but it does seem closer to NATO spec ammo, you know, the thing that most of the CZ's were designed around. I did not look it up, but the 125 WIN nato was spec'ed at 1185 as I recall.

Add to that, it seems much of your 124 defense ammo is in the upper 1100's, with the +P even hotter.

So if you want practice ammo, what are you going to practice with?

M CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo, the metal guns do not seem as pickey. And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!


Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2016, 02:10:33 AM »
It does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.

The only sure way to find out is keep loading it up until it blows up in your hands. Then, if you survive, take one step back. That will be the limit, but is it worth the risk?

That is how the Jap Zero was designed!

Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 07:45:12 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Boris_LA

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2016, 02:31:13 AM »
Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
I am not your Mom to tell you that you will shot your eye out. It was just a friendly safety reminder in the humorous form.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2016, 10:33:42 PM »
I planned on responding in more detail to help you adjust some views, but I went back and re-read that old thread you referenced regarding your Canik, and I can't take it all over again.  ;)   

That said, I can't let this go:

My CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo.... And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!

;D ;D  Did you really just explain that your poly pistols need "full" powered ammo because "They are just not sprung for [lighter ammo]!" and in doing so reference that old thread that you got locked because you were fighting people advising you to respring your pistols?    That's comic gold, brother.   ;D

****

On a serious note, your idea that your progression looks good and 1200 feet/sec is not out of the question -- you're not looking at that process correctly.  A 3-rung ladder has just TWO changes in velocity.  That's not much of a trend.  And when you're operating with .2gr increments, you have no idea what your final tenth of a grain was worth.  That final tenth of a grain that you can't see may very well have shown the diminishing returns that tell you that your useful load range is rapidly coming to an end.  And even if it doesn't, you can never use that process to predict out .3gr - .4gr for another 85 feet/sec from the top end of a load window because you never know when that first big velocity drop is going to come.  At the top of the useful load range, that can happen at any point.  You are already well above any published data for 231 and a 124/125gr JHP that I have, and I have a bunch.  You are in a space where caution is important.  If you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec, pick an appropriate powder. 

« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 01:15:05 PM by IDescribe »

Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2016, 01:10:37 AM »
Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
I am not your Mom to tell you that you will shot your eye out. It was just a friendly safety reminder in the humorous form.

No offense taken or intended, it is just my sarcasm. ;D

Offline copemech

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2016, 02:33:17 AM »
I planned on responding in more detail to help you adjust some views, but I went back and re-read that old thread you referenced regarding your Canik, and I can't take it all over again.  ;)   

That said, I can't let this go:

My CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo.... And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!

;D ;D  Did you really just explain that your poly pistols need "full" powered ammo because "They are just not sprung for it!" and in doing so reference that old thread that you got locked because you were fighting people advising you to respring your pistols?    That's comic gold, brother.   ;D

****

On a serious note, your idea that your progression looks good and 1200 feet/sec is not out of the question -- you're not looking at that process correctly.  A 3-rung ladder has just TWO changes in velocity.  That's not much of a trend.  And when you're operating with .2gr increments, you have no idea what your final tenth of a grain was worth.  That final tenth of a grain that you can't see may very well have shown the diminishing returns that tell you that your useful load range is rapidly coming to an end.  And even if it doesn't, you can never use that process to predict out .3gr - .4gr for another 85 feet/sec from the top end of a load window because you never know when that first big velocity drop is going to come.  At the top of the useful load range, that can happen at any point.  You are already well above any published data for 231 and a 124/125gr JHP that I have, and I have a bunch.  You are in a space where caution is important.  If you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec, pick an appropriate powder.


Why is it that I am always the bad guy for asking questions?

Ok, ID, let me see if I can clarify a couple of things. I now have three military grade poly pistols that were built around the Nato ammo. They are all heavily sprung from the factory.

Two of these guns are CZ. A P-09 and a P-07, they are rated at 20lbs factory. Same spring in both, with the shorter gun preloaded even more than the other.

Proper spring options are few, with CGW offering a 18 lb and a 15 lb. I run one of each, and although the guns will function with low powered ammo, say 115 at 1050fps or about 120PF, function is marginal and they will dump brass on your feet. 125PF seems to work well enough for ringing steel, although ejection pattern is about two feet.

The Canik is also heavy, but I have no measure. It is a Walther knockoff. I have found no(zero) spring options here. It will choke on 120PF, with 125PF working, but ? and 130PF rocking it pretty well.


So when I started this thread, I was a bit surprised that this powder seemed to easily meet the 125PF mark, which others have confirmed, and although I had no intension of pushing it, I simply asked if anyone had done it.

Yes, ID, you are correct, as my test window was small, and I have no real reason to expand it myself, yet that question was never answered.

Add yet the question still remains when you asked what is soo special about 1200fps, what indeed are you going to use to simulate the recoil moment of full powered or plus P defensive ammo? Although this is another topic we might expound upon. 

My two typing fingers hurt now. Good night! O0

Offline Wobbly

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Re: So I ran a ladder using the HP-38 and the 124 PD JHP
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2016, 08:21:21 AM »
Ok, ID, let me see if I can clarify a couple of things. I now have three military grade poly pistols that were built around the Nato ammo. They are all heavily sprung from the factory.

Proper spring options are few....

This is not a true statement. CGC simply buys springs they think they can sell from Wolff. Wolff Spring has every conceivable spring for any gun made. If they don't have it, then they will make it.

https://www.gunsprings.com/

Call these people up Tuesday and talk to them.

 ;)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 08:29:28 AM by Wobbly »
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