Author Topic: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.  (Read 9368 times)

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Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 12:26:37 AM »
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list... 

Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.

If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular.  Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags...  Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...

I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.

Online MeatAxe

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 09:44:35 PM »
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list... 

Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.

If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular.  Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags...  Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...

I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.


You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39:  6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.

https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/

Offline toecutter

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 07:00:55 PM »
OP, with regard to your distaste for having perceived redundancy in a fighting rifle; my personal opinion is that it is a good thing to have a spare to cannibalize if necessary.

Especially if you're not likely to get a fair price resale for your spare.


Offline RSR

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 05:18:07 AM »
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.

I have a heavy barrel AES10B and while it is accurate, I honestly can't say that it's noticeably more accurate than a VZ58...  The main cool thing about them is that they are an RPK and then the cheap price of drum mags.  What they definitely are is heavy!  I want to say about 13lbs w/o an optic...  Now there are light barrel AES, etc, but with a 20" barrel with a bipod at the end, you absolutely want the heavy barrel for accuracy.  Also, there are more than a few AES' with issues requiring costly repair, so bear that in mind as well.  I got my AES at sub $800, possibly sub $700, but lately all I've seen have been $1k plus, so accuracywise and general utility, it's really hard to beat an SKS...  Granted, the RPK is a looker (and under no circumstances would I buy a Century Arms US made copy)

Everyone I've seen report puts the 527 as more accurate than a VZ58.  My point about accuracy is that as a mid sized game to deer rifle at less than 200 yards and hogs at 100, the CZ527 is really tough to beat.  Have got my paws on 527s in the store and they handle and point nicely and have great balance.  If looking for accuracy first, the 527 mini mauser is worth serious consideration...

The main thing with accurized guns is to ensure they shot a caliber that you can afford to shoot.  I tend to shoot Galil's more than ARs due to Galils shooting the cheap steel case .223.  I tend to shoot brass cased ARs at .35 cents per round over shooting my K31 at 60 cents+ per round, etc.  If you can't afford to shoot it and practice with it, your ability to improve with a weapon is limited.  If you have a limited budget and can shoot 600 rounds of .308 per year vs 1500 rounds of 7.62x39, then go with the 7.62x39 hands down.  Practice is critical for actually being able to use your weapon under stress.  Do not forget that component when considering all the others.

Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2016, 06:52:19 PM »
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list... 

Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.

If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular.  Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags...  Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...

I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.


You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39:  6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.

https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/

I have been looking at those VEPR's, I am very interested, I may go that way.

Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 06:54:10 PM »
OP, with regard to your distaste for having perceived redundancy in a fighting rifle; my personal opinion is that it is a good thing to have a spare to cannibalize if necessary.

Especially if you're not likely to get a fair price resale for your spare.

I have decided to keep it for now, all of the points posted here have convinced me.

Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2016, 07:11:03 PM »
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.

I have a heavy barrel AES10B and while it is accurate, I honestly can't say that it's noticeably more accurate than a VZ58...  The main cool thing about them is that they are an RPK and then the cheap price of drum mags.  What they definitely are is heavy!  I want to say about 13lbs w/o an optic...  Now there are light barrel AES, etc, but with a 20" barrel with a bipod at the end, you absolutely want the heavy barrel for accuracy.  Also, there are more than a few AES' with issues requiring costly repair, so bear that in mind as well.  I got my AES at sub $800, possibly sub $700, but lately all I've seen have been $1k plus, so accuracywise and general utility, it's really hard to beat an SKS...  Granted, the RPK is a looker (and under no circumstances would I buy a Century Arms US made copy)

Everyone I've seen report puts the 527 as more accurate than a VZ58.  My point about accuracy is that as a mid sized game to deer rifle at less than 200 yards and hogs at 100, the CZ527 is really tough to beat.  Have got my paws on 527s in the store and they handle and point nicely and have great balance.  If looking for accuracy first, the 527 mini mauser is worth serious consideration...

The main thing with accurized guns is to ensure they shot a caliber that you can afford to shoot.  I tend to shoot Galil's more than ARs due to Galils shooting the cheap steel case .223.  I tend to shoot brass cased ARs at .35 cents per round over shooting my K31 at 60 cents+ per round, etc.  If you can't afford to shoot it and practice with it, your ability to improve with a weapon is limited.  If you have a limited budget and can shoot 600 rounds of .308 per year vs 1500 rounds of 7.62x39, then go with the 7.62x39 hands down.  Practice is critical for actually being able to use your weapon under stress.  Do not forget that component when considering all the others.

Thinking about the weight, I am thinking about holding off on the x39 DMR for a bit. I recently purchased a Arsenal Milled AK with the metal folding stock and it weighs a ton, the AES-10 weighs more and would probably see me using it less. I have been looking at the SKS for an accuracy rifle but mounting optics would be tough. I have looked at the 527 and that might be an option, however I would prefer a semi-auto option.

You make a great point about shooting what you can afford, sadly I haven't shot my rifles much over the last few years, I have mostly been shooting my pistols. I have been spending most of my extra money on adding new firearms to my collection, out of fears of changing political winds. I have almost all the weapons I really wanted and I am hoping to spend more time actually shooting instead of collecting in the near future, I still need to stock up on ammo and get optics though....

I actually shoot mostly steel cased through most of my firearms, including my Smith and Wesson M&P 9 and Colt 6920 AR, luckily they're all reliable with steel.

Offline Franz Maurer

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2016, 08:15:32 PM »


You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39:  6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.

https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/

Do keep in mind that the 27" barrel versions of the above are not just longer but also considerably thicker than all the shorter ones.
The outside barrel diameter is the same as the front sight base on the 27s
they are impossible to find at the moment, thought.
Csspecs has steel mags for the 308 and soon for 54R which will be the bees knees
I'm already excited...
75B .40 ; P-01 ; kadet2 ; '94 witness .45 - slim nose 1of999 ; samopal vz.58 ; tin foil hat.

Offline RSR

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2016, 10:02:14 PM »
VEPRs can be used as DMRs, though I don't get the appeal of a "DMR" for civilians as a purpose-built gun... Specifically, any "rifle" and several carbines I have are at least "DMR" or better.   It's the natural optimized evolution of a rifle for me as a single shooter not part of a greater unit.  For a DMR -- that is a weapon accurized, either by configuration or ammo selection, and a magnified optic...  Effectively most guns and every weapon system can be made into a DMR.

The same cannot be said for an accurized sniper rifle.  So the question is not DMR, but rather a sniper-capable rifle -- and the only question for a sniper equivalent rifle is at what min and max ranges do you want your weapon optimized for.  In part this has to due with the innate capabilities and limits of your caliber, but also relates to the intended use...
As we're not a military dot gov weapon acquisition folks, if going for accuracy, the weapons cost is negligible -- less than $500 usually and almost always less than $1k -- between systems (that is, AK vs AR, etc). 
The main difference between a sniper weapon and DMR is the optic -- and the shooter.  Generally, sniper rifles are desired to be 1 MOA capable, while DMRs are 2-3 MOA capable.   And there may be some barrel profile and barrel length compromises on the DMR end (generally lighter weight components since rifleman first and accurized fire at range secondary or less responsibility after rifleman, porting ammo for squad automatic weapon, and porting extra mortar rounds, etc)  that aren't deemed acceptable, or needed, on the Sniper end as well...  Importantly, snipers in the military do not configure field weapon similar to the heavy benchrest monstrosities you see at the range...

So, want a reliable .308 battle rifle/DMR at sub $1k in an AK pattern -- go with the VEPR or Galil .308 or your pic of other options.  Most weapon systems can be made to shoot 3 moa or better, especially if sticking with the ammo that given gun shoots best with...  In such a configuration, that's a DMR rifle.
Want max accuracy in .308 at sub $1k-$1.2k -- AR10 pattern if semi, or your pic of accurized bolt actions...

Your cost between a .308 DMR and .308 Sniper setup (excluding optic) is $200-$500 most likely, which for one rifle for one person is manageable, and much of that cost is in the free floated rail with minimal cost differences in barrels where you find rapidly diminishing returns.  The cost for optics may be $500 or so different, depending on what level of optic you deem acceptable for the DMR and Sniper roles...  Low end on DMR and high end on sniper leads to a much greater cost difference than high end for both or low end for both.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 10:05:33 PM by RSR »

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2016, 06:25:08 PM »


You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39:  6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.

https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/

Do keep in mind that the 27" barrel versions of the above are not just longer but also considerably thicker than all the shorter ones.
The outside barrel diameter is the same as the front sight base on the 27s
they are impossible to find at the moment, thought.
Csspecs has steel mags for the 308 and soon for 54R which will be the bees knees
I'm already excited...


Just sold my PSL. :( but I am working on my 23" VEPR currently and intend to check various 54R rounds and bullet weights to see what, if anything, it likes the best. Regarding the 27", I always wondered if going with the longer heavier barrel and then chopping it down to 23ish had any merits.


Re csspes...  SHHHHH!

Regarding nomenclature of DMR vs. Sniper, etc. IMHO these refer to a function of the individual, and not necessarily the tool.  Having said that in the Eastern block a PSL, SVD type rifle with optic is certainly designed for longer range support ss is the typical .308 bolt action in the west.


I have freinds that shoot "Precision Rifles" and compete in Precision Rifle events, sometimes including shots out to 1 mile on 18" plates.  These are typically ground up custom built guns with special barrels and exceptional high end optics chambered in 338 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmor, 6mm, etc.  If anyone here is located near NE Ohio we are having a longer range shoot in a couple weeks: http://www.southingtonhuntclub.net/results.html


Update:  I am in agreement with MAC philosophy on DMR -- Sniper.  A VZ.58 could be used as either with the right optic/ammo/operator. 

https://youtu.be/YCccDn76WY4

I bought a very detailed book on sniper operations for a buddy of mine.  The majority of the book got into concealment, movement, intelligence collection, radio operation, survival, etc etc.  and shooting was a small, albeit important skill for the sniper.  Many snipers (teams) can complete a tour without firing a shot at an enemy or designated target.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 06:40:41 AM by CitizenPete »
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The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2016, 11:03:19 PM »
VEPRs can be used as DMRs, though I don't get the appeal of a "DMR" for civilians as a purpose-built gun... Specifically, any "rifle" and several carbines I have are at least "DMR" or better.   It's the natural optimized evolution of a rifle for me as a single shooter not part of a greater unit.  For a DMR -- that is a weapon accurized, either by configuration or ammo selection, and a magnified optic...  Effectively most guns and every weapon system can be made into a DMR.

The same cannot be said for an accurized sniper rifle.  So the question is not DMR, but rather a sniper-capable rifle -- and the only question for a sniper equivalent rifle is at what min and max ranges do you want your weapon optimized for.  In part this has to due with the innate capabilities and limits of your caliber, but also relates to the intended use...
As we're not a military dot gov weapon acquisition folks, if going for accuracy, the weapons cost is negligible -- less than $500 usually and almost always less than $1k -- between systems (that is, AK vs AR, etc). 
The main difference between a sniper weapon and DMR is the optic -- and the shooter.  Generally, sniper rifles are desired to be 1 MOA capable, while DMRs are 2-3 MOA capable.   And there may be some barrel profile and barrel length compromises on the DMR end (generally lighter weight components since rifleman first and accurized fire at range secondary or less responsibility after rifleman, porting ammo for squad automatic weapon, and porting extra mortar rounds, etc)  that aren't deemed acceptable, or needed, on the Sniper end as well...  Importantly, snipers in the military do not configure field weapon similar to the heavy benchrest monstrosities you see at the range...

So, want a reliable .308 battle rifle/DMR at sub $1k in an AK pattern -- go with the VEPR or Galil .308 or your pic of other options.  Most weapon systems can be made to shoot 3 moa or better, especially if sticking with the ammo that given gun shoots best with...  In such a configuration, that's a DMR rifle.
Want max accuracy in .308 at sub $1k-$1.2k -- AR10 pattern if semi, or your pic of accurized bolt actions...

Your cost between a .308 DMR and .308 Sniper setup (excluding optic) is $200-$500 most likely, which for one rifle for one person is manageable, and much of that cost is in the free floated rail with minimal cost differences in barrels where you find rapidly diminishing returns.  The cost for optics may be $500 or so different, depending on what level of optic you deem acceptable for the DMR and Sniper roles...  Low end on DMR and high end on sniper leads to a much greater cost difference than high end for both or low end for both.

I always viewed a DMR as a weapon chambered in 5.56mm, 7.62x39 or 308 with a magnified optic in a semi-automatic platform, potentially with a longer/heavier barrel but not necessarily and shoots 2-3 MOA. As for a sniper rifle I would consider it to be something that's all custom, including the ammo, chambered in a battle rifle round or bigger and is operated by someone specially trained in it's use. A DMR in my mind is used by your more run of the mil solider. However, that's my personal opinion, I have seen vastly different options on the subject though.

Ideally I would like a semi-auto 7.62x39 weapon with a 4-12 power scope with a heavier, potentially longer barrel that would make it especially easy to engage targets in the 100-300 yard range. The Vepr is looking like the perfect platform for that. By the way, I do own a Yugo M77 in 308, so I already own an AK pattern DMR, it's been sitting in my safe for awhile. I have to get some of those Ccspec 308 magazines for it and finish turning it into my "vision". The expensive magazines for it have been keeping me from finishing it quickly....

Offline RSR

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2016, 02:26:25 PM »
Here's a better summary of my take...  Bottom line, a DMR is modern rifleman who has shooting talents equivalent to your average shooting enthusiast, woodsman, someone how has gone through Appleseed or similar, etc, and has the configured their weapon in a manner that optimizes its accuracy...  Sniper requires purpose-built weapon, a higher degree of training, and better optics...  It's the difference between being able to engage bullseye first shot (properly, estimated rather than known exact ranges) and cold bore vs taking a few shots to walk rounds in, etc.  (Note that Russian "snipers" are properly DMRs by proper definitions...  The Russians were caught without proper sniper capabilities in Afghanistan and Chechnya having only a squad marksman, spun up SVDs and additional training but still well short of sniper as the US military defines at least until the past decade or so when Russians have modernized their military and moved away from Cold War massed tactics -- similar story with Russian Special Operations as well, where US Spec Ops forces have provided a lot of training and modernization to those units up until the past few years with Russian aggression stopping most of the military exchanges and collaboration).

Here's a more complete summary:

DMR
-More accurate than standard issue via build specs, optic, or both
-Capable of being a general use military rifle/carbine, so semi-auto required
-Able to reach further than standard issue weapon through caliber, cartridge, optic -- requires at least one to be superior than standard infantryman, but could include all
-Accuracy requirement is minute of man through expected engagement ranges, as much for accurate suppression fire at distance as for precision targeting
-Primary role for DMR soldier is in an anti-personnel role
-Works within standard infantry platoons/fireteams
-Low magnification optics are sufficient here

Sniper
-1 MOA requirement throughout intended engagement range
-A purpose-built weapon, so can be semi-auto or bolt action
-Greater accuracy requirements requires a much higher standard of marksmanship, so typically requires .308 or greater caliber in military (police snipers with shorter ranges can be well served through intermediate calibers such as 7.62x39 or 5.56 however), match grade ammo, and higher magnification optic with mil or moa dot recticle to best utilize sniper precision and skillset
-Accuracy requirement is 1 MOA noted earlier and intended to be capable of achieving objective throughout engagement ranges with just one shot
-Primary role is to disable high value targets -- officers, NCOs, other leadership, support weapon teams (MGs, grenade launchers, mortars, etc), vehicles, light armored vehicles, unarmored infrastructure, etc
-Primary role is as an independent unit, often
-Attached at company level or higher from company or battalion level HQ or Sniper companies/platoons
-High magnification optics are required and proportionate to ranges and capabilities of rifle and caliber and intended use

Offline chrisofpa

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2016, 09:41:04 PM »
That seems to be a very well thought out opinion on the difference between a DMR and Sniper, thanks for sharing.  :)

Online MeatAxe

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Re: Bought a D-Technik VZ58, had some questions.
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2016, 12:54:56 AM »
Iraq fields the Tabuk, a long-barreled AK "sniper" rifle in 7.62x39:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabuk_Sniper_Rifle
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 01:50:41 AM by MeatAxe »