Load Testing: Winchester WSF powder (Part II)

[IDescribe]

Four short ladders with WSF.    Comments after the data.

[Moderator's Note: Also see THIS WSF THREAD.]


Powder:      WSF
Primers:      S&B SPP
Caliber:       9x19 Luger
Brass:         mixed pickup


Bullet:      SNS 135gr RN
OAL:           1.115   

3.8gr      Avg fps - 941  |  PF-127  | SD- 9 | ES-26
3.9gr      Avg fps - 964  |  PF-130  | SD-18| ES-55
4.0gr      Avg fps - 982  |  PF-133  | SD- 8 | ES-20     
___________________________________

Bullet:      Missouri Bullet Company 135gr RN .38 Super (.357)
OAL:           1.095 

3.8gr      Avg fps - 938  |  PF-127  | SD-13 | ES-47
3.9gr      Avg fps - 976  |  PF-132  | SD-10 | ES-39
4.0gr      Avg fps - 1001|  PF-135  | SD- 7  | ES-20       
___________________________________

Bullet:      Precision Delta 124gr JHP
OAL:           1.080   

4.6gr      Avg fps - 1072  |  PF-133  | SD-10  | ES-29
4.7gr      Avg fps - 1076  |  PF-133  | SD-15  | ES-51
4.8gr      Avg fps - 1107  |  PF-137  | SD- 9   | ES-26
4.9gr      Avg fps - 1131  |  PF-140  | SD- 7   | ES-23
___________________________________

Bullet:      Precision Delta 124gr FMJ-RN .38 Super (.356)
OAL:           1.16   

4.9gr      Avg fps - 1072 |  PF-133  | SD-19  | ES-36
5.0gr      Avg fps - 1077 |  PF-134  | SD-13  | ES-39
5.1gr      Avg fps - 1107 |  PF-137  | SD-12  | ES-40
5.2gr      Avg fps - 1131 |  PF-139  | SD- 9   | ES-26   
___________________________________


All right.   I fired 30 ten-round strings across a chrono with WSF today, and I pulled and replaced targets for each one.  18 of 30 strings were with my 75 ShadowLine, 14 of which are represented above, 8 were with my VP9, and 4 were with my Glock 17.   

I am accustomed to standard deviations in the range of 5-8.  In each of the ladders above (as well as the 14 shot with the two other pistols), the standard deviations are best with the heaviest charge weights, and for the most part trend that way as charge weights increase.  Clearly, with standard deviations going from bad to decent as charge weights increase, I'm starting in an area with a poor/late pressure seal, and I'm not getting to a decent pressure seal until the top of the ladder. 

In all cases, the velocity at the top of the ladder where I started getting a good pressure seal is faster than what I would want to shoot 9mm minor with that bullet.  Does this mean this powder isn't good for 9mm minor?  Not necessarily.  First, some people just want to shoot 9mm minor at a PF of 139 and beyond, so maybe this is a good powder in that case, but more than that, even my under-pressured loads with standard deviations and extreme spreads all over the place, even those loads were typically accurate. It would run your gun dirty at those charge weights, but other than that, I can't knock it performance-wise.  In most of the ladders, groups tightened a little as charge weights went up, but the worst ones were still pretty good. 

There was one ladder I made for the CZ that is not in the data above.  I was shooting all the way up to sundown, and light got low enough that the chrono stopped working before I could get the last two ladders in, one of which was with XTreme 147gr RN-HPCB I'd loaded for the CZ.  I shot the ladder anyway on target.  The ladder ran 4.0-4.3gr.      I know that 4.0gr of WSF with a plated 147gr RN is a common 9mm minor load, and from other people's data for that use at that charge weight, I can guess that my starting load got somewhere between 890 and 900 feet/sec.  However, 147gr bullets in my CZ historically haven't performed as well as they can until somewhere over 925 feet/sec, and true to history, each step of the ladder saw the targets tighten up until the 4.3gr string looked like what past good loads with this bullet look like.  I will be reloading that ladder and shooting it again with the chrono to see where velocities fall.  WSF might just be perfect for 9mm minor with a 147gr bullet, particularly coated lead.

And then there's non-9mm minor applications, which is where I suspect this powder this powder's niche really is.  If you're not trying to keep recoil to a minimum, and you want to load for accuracy for target shooting, WSF seems like a great option.  I will not do a broad series of ladders like this again with WSF with as many bullets in as many guns, but I would like to get out with some 124gr or 115gr bullets and get these up closer to 1150 or even 1200 with the 115gr bullets, and see what WSF will do at 50 yards. 

I feel like I spent most of this testing in kind of a crappy range for WSF, yet it performed well anyway.  I'm curious to see what else it can do.




I made some next morning edits for clarity.

[RenegadeDave]

I'm a fan of WSF, I like it about the same as titegroup.  I find it to be pretty accurate.  I think it's OK for 124 minor loads coated lead loads too.  A little heavier than TG at the same power factor

[J Lee]

I tested myself with the PD 124 JHP. Confused why my numbers are much lower than yours.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not doubting your numbers. I would just like to learn what I did to get lower velocities.  Firing 15 rds from my P07 and using a CED Pro Digital 15 ft from muzzle, my avg fps was 4.8gr, 1041fps, SD 8.2, ES 32. I seated at 1.09" w/.378 crimp. 

Maybe it's my chrono.


[Mods added 4.8gr]

[painter]

I tested myself with the PD 124 JHP. Confused why my numbers are much lower than yours.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not doubting your numbers. I would just like to learn what I did to get lower velocities.  Firing 15 rds from my P07 and using a CED Pro Digital 15 ft from muzzle, my avg fps was 1041, SD 8.2, ES 32. I seated at 1.09" w/.378 crimp.  Maybe it's my chrono.

At what charge weight?

That shorter barrel and the long chrono distance would make a difference I believe.

Pretty much.

If we're going to trade numbers we'd need to set some parameters...much like a lab doing load data. We don't have transducers and all the fancy stuff, but we should specify chrono distance, barrel length, and possibly sun exposure of the chrono. The things can get fooled

[IDescribe]

Could be the chrono.  Could be the distance to the chrono, though I can't imagine  six or seven feet is going to amount to much.  Could be the barrel length.  Could be chrono setup savvy.  Could be a difference in powder drops.  Could be a difference in scales.

Copemech, his charge weight was 4.8gr.

[J Lee]

I calibrated my Dillon Eliminator scale and verified every drop like I always do when laddering a new load.  My 4.6 loads were 1017, 9.9 SD, and 41 ES. Went back and checked the temp that day at 72 deg if that makes a diff.  Don't believe it does with WSF.  Need to find someone else in my area with a chrono to check accuracy of mine.  It's a 2 year old unit and the CEDs have a good reputation.

Primers?  I was using Fed 100.

Now a little worried that my loads might be hotter than they test.

[IDescribe]

I calibrated my Dillon Eliminator scale and verified every drop like I always do when laddering a new load.

I see the problem now.  You're crazy.    

[IDescribe]

I need to redo two of the ladders, and I will redo one of the charge weights from the 124gr JHP ladder for the CZ to make sure I didn't mess something up.  Who knows, maybe the distance I'm accustomed to setting the chrono at is fine with fast powders that are getting completely burned, but with slow powder I'm blowing some out unburned powder out to the chrono and affecting the readings? 

I'll even weigh every charge.   

I've looked at other data.  It looks like I'm about a tenth of a grain faster than the other data I'm looking at.  And my standard deviations are way higher than yours except at the top of the ladder where mine narrow.   

[copemech]

I am thinking the 3.6 inch barrel on a P07 is going to be a limiting factor on a slower powder, but?

I was hoping Painter or someone would shoot their Prochrono so I could sell mine.

[copemech]

I am thinking the 3.6 inch barrel on a P07 is going to be a limiting factor on a slower powder, but?

I was hoping Painter or someone would shoot their Prochrono so I could sell mine.

Hey, ID. Have you run any of the PD regular RN 124?  They gave me a few to try, but I am too lazy to do a push test on these in all the guns. Can I just run them at 1.125 or so and be good to go with the chamber length? I have not measured the bullet length or figured seating depth, but as long as seating depth is same or less than the HP version I should be good on pressures.

[J Lee]

You've been doing this a lot longer than I have.  I gotta be missing something.

[painter]

I calibrated my Dillon Eliminator scale and verified every drop like I always do when laddering a new load.

I see the problem now.  You're crazy.    

I see no issue with that.

[IDescribe]

Hey, ID. Have you run any of the PD regular RN 124? 

No, just the 124gr .356 38 Super RN.

I am too lazy to do a push test on these in all the guns. Can I just run them at 1.125 or so and be good to go with the chamber length?

It won't bother me personally.

[Boris_LA]

Have you run any of the PD regular RN 124?

I have tested PD 124gr (0.355") FMJ RN with CZ-SP-01. The best accuracy was with this:
PD 124 FMJ RN   OAL=1.150"   WSF=5.1gr   Avg velocity=1150

50' group = 0.75", 50m group = 5"

Max charge tested was WSF 5.3gr, no pressure signs at this OAL.

I've got better long distance accuracy with different powders and don't load this recipe beyond testing.

[IDescribe]

PD 124 FMJ RN   OAL=1.150"   WSF=5.1gr   Avg velocity=1150

Glad to see someone reporting chrono results faster than mine.  J Lee, the ball is back in your court.