Newbie Reloader

[tdogg]

No sweat!

There's a lot to learn and consider when performing load development.  You seem to be picking it up just fine.

Merry Christmas!
Toby

[larryflew]

MUCH better to be in the slow group and learn than the know it all group and lose guns and fingers.

[Wobbly]

Don't mistake the "small" size of the 9mm Luger cartridge as an "easy" cartridge to reload, especially in a CZ pistol. It's a high pressure cartridge and small changes in OAL make a much bigger difference in chamber pressure than, say for instance, the same distance in 45ACP or 38 Spcl. So we move slowly and deliberately.

Everything we do in reloading is to control and minimize chamber pressure. Chamber pressure is the elephant in the room no one talks about directly. We talk a lot about OAL, powder measure accuracy, scale accuracy, bullet seating depth, distance to the lands, bullet types, ogive shapes, powder loads, etc, etc, but in all these moves we are really trying to keep chamber pressure in check.

So there's a lot of considerations that go into reloading 9x19 Luger. But if you get this right, you can move to any other auto pistol cartridge with confidence.

You're on your way. 


PS. How are you being treated here ?

[RandyMan]

Don't mistake the "small" size of the 9mm Luger cartridge as an "easy" cartridge to reload, especially in a CZ pistol. It's a high pressure cartridge and small changes in OAL make a much bigger difference in chamber pressure than, say for instance, the same distance in 45ACP or 38 Spcl. So we move slowly and deliberately.

Everything we do in reloading is to control and minimize chamber pressure. Chamber pressure is the elephant in the room no one talks about directly. We talk a lot about OAL, powder measure accuracy, scale accuracy, bullet seating depth, distance to the lands, bullet types, ogive shapes, powder loads, etc, etc, but in all these moves we are really trying to keep chamber pressure in check.

So there's a lot of considerations that go into reloading 9x19 Luger. But if you get this right, you can move to any other auto pistol cartridge with confidence.

You're on your way. 


PS. How are you being treated here ?

I'm being treated GREAT!!!!  Thank you to all.




[Mods fixed quote]

[1SOW]

9mm  seating depth:

9mm Case length nominal equals  .748"
(Bullet length to 3 decimals + .748") minus OAL to three decimals equals Seating Depth into the case.
Compare the your bullet length to the bullet length in your load data. If yours is seated deeper, then case pressure will increase by some amount. If yours is at or close to the load data, your results will be close to published data.

Example: The Precision Delta 124 gr JHP bullet is .585" long.
So:  Seating Depth is .748 + .585 - 1.097"(my OAL) equals .236" Seating Depth into the case.

Hope this makes sense.
Merry Christmas

[Wobbly]

I guess I'm in the slow group LOL

Not to worry. We're moving your chair to the front of the class !

There you'll receive Special High Intensity Training by the bucket load. You'll receive as much S.H.I.T. as you can possibly stand. By the time we finish with you, you'll be swimming in S.H.I.T.

 

[RandyMan]

I guess I'm in the slow group LOL

Not to worry. We're moving your chair to the front of the class !

There you'll receive Special High Intensity Training by the bucket load. You'll receive as much S.H.I.T. as you can possibly stand. By the time we finish with you, you'll be swimming in S.H.I.T.

 

 



[Mods corrected quote]

[painter]

Bullet                   Case Length   Bullet Length     OAL           Seating Depth
Speer 115 GDHP   0.75                   0.525           1.125        0.15
Xtreme 115 RN     0.75                   0.553           1.113        0.19

So help me under stand something, how do you come up with "So in your specific case you are seating the bullet ~.040 deeper than the published load data"

Anytime.

? The length of the bullet has everything to do with it. Knowing your OAL and the length of the 2 bullets, he calculated the seating depths for each cartridge. Then he calculated the difference between them... 0.19 minus 0.15 = .040"

? What saved you was that you began at the Starting Load. Due to the extra insertion depth, you're most probably already shooting at chamber pressures approximating mid-load. That's why they shot so well. So with this bullet at that OAL your REAL load range probably runs something like 4.5gr to 4.9gr. Your load "window" is still 0.4gr wide, but due to the deeper insertion causing higher chamber pressure, the window slid downward. Capisce ?

With a chrono you could tell for sure. You don't need one just yet, because we want you to stick closer to book loads at longer OALs while you hone your personal reloading process for the first several months.

Always err toward safety.

Hope this helps. 

After running a quick calculation, you're exactly correct with his new load range Mr. W.

[Wobbly]

Not to beat the subject to death, but here's new published data found this morning....

As far as increased chamber pressure caused by bullet seating depth, here's a chart from Hercules Powder Corp (now called Alliant)concerning seating of Wad Cutter bullets in a 38 Spcl. Now realize that the 38 Spcl has about twice the space under the bullet as a 9x19 Luger. Look at the number to the right of the cartridge; that's the number we've been calling seating depth.



See how the pressure increases by 235% inside that huge cartridge case with only an increase of .17" more in seating depth. Think how much faster the pressure rises inside a tiny 9mm case !!

 

[RandyMan]

Well it is time to try my hand a loading a FEW 124g Xtreme Rn loads. After I find the Max OAL and subtract.015 to find my OAL. Will be using Winchester 231 powder starting @ 4.1gr. Is this a good starting point?

[Wobbly]

Well it is time to try my hand a loading a FEW 124g Xtreme Rn loads. After I find the Max OAL and subtract .015 to find my OAL.

Whoa, right there !! Backup.

This is NOT what we said. You want to find the Optimal OAL, which lies somewhere between the Maximum OAL and the Minimal OAL. No one said the Max OAL was the best OAL.



When you find Max and Min OAL, then there is a zone of usable lengths that fall in between those 2 numbers. Try to envision the OAL as a number line, as the chart above illustrates. Sometimes, the 2 numbers are so close together that the Max OAL becomes the Optimal OAL, but that is fairly rare if you are using the correct bullets. In most instances you have a decision to make based on many, many factors.

Will be using Winchester 231 powder starting @ 4.1gr. Is this a good starting point?

No one can say, for the simple reason that you haven't picked an OAL. The Starting Load generally comes from the load data in your manual, in concert with the OAL you choose.

As we saw in your first attempt, due to your very short OAL, the bullet was buried deep into the cartridge case. That affected chamber pressure, therefore the load data should have been modified by moving the load window downward.

The load data in the manual is not some type of Golden Rule. It is not your recipe, it is their recipe. If you change any aspect of their recipe, then you might have to modify it to become your recipe. Chief among those changes (the Number One prime suspect) is the OAL and bullet length... because they affect Chamber Pressure in a big way.

Remember Chamber Pressure ? We've been talking about it for 2 pages now, but from your latest post, it doesn't seem to have sunk in just yet. I don't want to scare you, some reloading is straight out of the book and very easy. However, most of it takes a little more thought. You must consider the mitigating factors. In order to do that you first have to recognize the mitigating factors.

I'm not fussing at you. I'm trying to get you to begin a mindset and thinking process that will lead to a responsible and safe way to reload any cartridge. You wouldn't drive the kids all the way to Daytona Beach before you checked on hurricanes, shark attacks, and local accommodations. In the same way you'll be much better off the sooner you develop a similar mental check list for reloading.


So that I can put this in language that you'll understand, why don't you tell me what your occupation is, please.

 

[RandyMan]

Well it is time to try my hand a loading a FEW 124g Xtreme Rn loads. After I find the Max OAL and subtract .015 to find my OAL.

Whoa, right there !! Backup.

This is NOT what we said. You want to find the Optimal OAL, which lies somewhere between the Maximum OAL and the Minimal OAL. No one said the Max OAL was the best OAL.



When you find Max and Min OAL, then there is a zone of usable lengths that fall in between those 2 numbers. Try to envision the OAL as a number line, as the chart above illustrates. Sometimes, the 2 numbers are so close together that the Max OAL becomes the Optimal OAL, but that is fairly rare if you are using the correct bullets. In most instances you have a decision to make based on many, many factors.

Will be using Winchester 231 powder starting @ 4.1gr. Is this a good starting point?

No one can say, for the simple reason that you haven't picked an OAL. The Starting Load generally comes from the load data in your manual, in concert with the OAL you choose.

As we saw in your first attempt, due to your very short OAL, the bullet was buried deep into the cartridge case. That affected chamber pressure, therefore the load data should have been modified by moving the load window downward.

The load data in the manual is not some type of Golden Rule. It is not your recipe, it is their recipe. If you change any aspect of their recipe, then you might have to modify it to become your recipe. Chief among those changes (the Number One prime suspect) is the OAL and bullet length... because they affect Chamber Pressure in a big way.

Remember Chamber Pressure ? We've been talking about it for 2 pages now, but from your latest post, it doesn't seem to have sunk in just yet. I don't want to scare you, some reloading is straight out of the book and very easy. However, most of it takes a little more thought. You must consider the mitigating factors. In order to do that you first have to recognize the mitigating factors.

I'm not fussing at you. I'm trying to get you to begin a mindset and thinking process that will lead to a responsible and safe way to reload any cartridge. You wouldn't drive the kids all the way to Daytona Beach before you checked on hurricanes, shark attacks, and local accommodations. In the same way you'll be much better off the sooner you develop a similar mental check list for reloading.


So that I can put this in language that you'll understand, why don't you tell me what your occupation is, please.

 

So to answer one of your questions I'm a Parts & Service Director for 2 automotive dealerships. I have Raced drag cars and have been involved in dyno tuning of vehicles also.

I totally understood that I need to find the MAX OAL, and work from there. I believe I need to give more details when posting.
So a couple of questions?
1) Most of the load data I see doesn't include bullet seating depth.  Were can I find that?
2) My plan was to load to 1.12 OAL and start there, if that doesnt seat the bullet to far?
3) Then once I have a STARTING OAL try a few different load and determine my optimal OAL?

Please don't hesitate to get bold in your remarks. I want to learn this and more importantly understand it correctly. A month ago I would have just loaded at 1.09 with a light load as a starting point. So I now understand this is NOT the way to do it, so you can teach an old dog new tricks!  LOL

So fire away!!!

[painter]

You won't find seating depth listed. That comes from comparing the length of the bullet listed in the data to what you plan on using.

There is a thread in this forum that lists the lengths of many popular bullets. You can then figure the seating depth, or the OAL, that you'd need to use for the bullet you've chosen.

If the bullet listed in the data isn't in that thread you'd need to use the starting load, and a chronograph to figure out where you are in the load window. At least that would be the way I'd do it.

[1SOW]

You will know the seating depths by using the formula given  above. Bullet  length + Case length - OAL equals SD

If you know the length of the specific bullet used in the load data you use,  you can compute "their" chosen seating depth and compare it with yours. 
If "their bullet" is the same "weight and type" (jacketted, plated, coated or lead) as yours,   then having close to the same seating depth will give yours close to the same pressures and bullet speeds.

Writing all this down makes it sound complicated.  Write down HOW to tie your shoes.  That will scare you too.
Neither are really that complex after doing it the first few times.

[RandyMan]

Thank you!

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