Looking for a Witness Limited - know any good dealers

[Duffy1]

My wife is moving up from a S&W model 41 (22cal) to a 9mm and the only firearm that rang her bell was the Witness Limited (single action, 9mm adjustable rear sight).  Now the tough part is finding a dealer and the gun at a competitive price.  A couple of questions are:

How reliable are these guns
How reliable are the external extractors
How easy is it to get parts
What should street price be on a new Witness

I appreciate any feedback

Duffy1

[Walt-Sherrill]

Finding one in 9mm may be a challenge.  

These models qre mostly sought by IPSC/USPSA shooters, and they are more focused on .40 and .45s.

[jh-williams]

  Email Mark at eeacorp, or call by phone. He will arrange to ship you one to your FFL.
 
here is the Email section from him:

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
We shipped the following wholesalers 10mm Match Pistols in the last 10 days:

Valor Corporation, Sunrise, FL : (954) 377-4925

Ellett brothers, Chapin SC : (803) 345-3711

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

They are expecting a new shipment of them this week
also.

[Walt-Sherrill]

In answer to your questions:

How reliable are these guns
About as good as any other name-brand gun.  Witnesses are generally pretty good; its the customer service that has been bad -- and they seem to be working on improving that.

How reliable are the external extractors
Sounds like a  dyed-in-the-wool 1911 shooter asking that question. <grin>  

Most guns, nowadays, have external extractors.   As far as I know, that's all the Tanfoglio/Witness guns have EVER had.  

But even some of the new 1911s have external extractors, nowadays (i.e., my SIG GSR).  Its not an issue.

How easy is it to get parts
EAA is the primary source, but turnaround is pretty quick.  I've called and had the parts the same week.   Some after-market parts are available, but Brownells quit carrying them for Tanfoglio guns a year or two ago.

[Duffy1]

Walt,
Thanks for the feedback and yes you pegged me right I am a dyed in the wool 1911 guy.  Try as I might to move her into a 1911 she wasn't interested and I was just about to give up (we didn't want a Glock or Sig) when a dealer showed me a used Witness - firm price of $950.  My wife liked the feel and the balance of the gun and what I need to do now is make sure that it will offer the reliability she needs.  She has a S&W model 41 (22 Cal) that is very finicky about which ammo it eats - can you tell me of there are similar problems with the Witness, what's the accuracy like and, can you give me an idea what street price?  Any other brainfood you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Duffy1

[Walt-Sherrill]

You may have jumped into the middle of pool, when you could have started in the shallow end.

The Witness Limited is a pricier version of the standard Witness large frame gun.  There are other options that might also be better, and less expensive.

The Witness is an almost "clone"/close copy of the the CZ line, and they all feel about the same in you hand.  

(Witness stopped importing their small-frame guns, recently, and everything is now the large frame, but many, many of the other, smaller models are available, both new and used.  Converting any of them to SA only is simple and relatively inexpensive... but I wouldn't bother.)

That's because all of the CZ clones that don't have decockers  (Witnesses, Tanfoglios, Baby Eagles, line and CZs, too) are SA/DA: they can be carried and started in SA mode.

My point: there's no real reason to buy a SA only version just to get a gun that can function as a SA gun.  Unless you get a decocker model, all of the CZs and CZ "clones" do that and can be carried cocke-and-locked.  

Before committing to the Witness Limited, I'd recommend that you also look at the 75B, the 75B Single Action, or the 85 Combat (which comes with an adjustable trigger and ambidextrous controls).

Or look at one smaller frame Witnesses.  That smaller frame Witnesses or smaller-frame CZs (75s/85s) are all going to feel very much like the Limited model, but because they're smaller, are even more likely to fit your wife's hand better.

[jwc007]

It should be noted that the Small (9mm/40 only) Frame Witnesses have been discontinued in favor of the slightly Larger frame only, to simplify production and caliber conversions.  The smaller framed versions can still be found with some distributors and dealers, but you may not have your choice of options/models.  If your wife can handle the current large frame, which may even be more comfortable with a Single Action Trigger, you should be able to get the Limited.  The only way to know is to have her actually try one, and I highly recommend it!

[Grayrider]

$950 sounds a bit steep.  I have a Limited coming in this week in 40 and will post a review once I get time to run it a little.  The 9mm is a hot seller in that gun as well as the 40, so they will have them regularly at EAA.  Last I heard some 9s were coming in a few weeks.  These will have the new fiber optic front blade that earlier guns lacked.  They should also have the new magazine catch that Eric G. says fixes many feed issues.  The new style magazines are interesting as well.  They have a track in the front of the magazine that keeps the follower from tipping.  Neat idea that should have been thought of long ago.  I may need a Limited in 9mm later on.

I would suggest that unless you want a competition gun, consider the Witness Elite Stock in 9mm.  I have one and love it.  The price should be a couple hundred less.  It would be more suitable to carry or defensive use.  It is essentially un upgraded 75, with extended controls, adjustable sights, hard chrome finish, bull barrel, checkering, adjustable trigger, and hard chrome finish.  It makes for 18 rounds of fun in a 9mm.

For just plinking at the range a 9mm Match would set you back around $525-550.  It has a longer barrel than the Stock and the same sort of SA trigger as the Limited.  They are quite accurate.  My 10mm Match produced a group 1" by .5" with 38 rounds of factory 10mm at around 12 yds, standing.  I suspect it would be a lot of fun in 9mm given the mass of the gun.  I am sorely tempted to get one in .38 Super for some 9x23 experimentation.

I suggest you contact Marc Galli at EAA to discuss your options.  He can tell you what they have and what is coming in.  Tell him I sent you.

GR

[Seismic-Sam]

Duffy: Try to find a place that has just the plain old EAA's, which are only $350 NIB, and see what your wife thinks.  For self defense, you don't need a $900+ match pistol, which is what she looked at.  The gun feels the same in the hand, and if she likes it, you may be able to pick up a used one for even LESS money.  I agree with NOT getting an SA ONLY trigger.  One of the beauties of the EAA is that you can carry it with the hammer down and safety off, and rock and roll in incredibly short order when you draw.

[Grayrider]

Now guys, if the lady wants a $900+ match pistol then maybe she should have a $900+ match pistol.  We don't want to get ol' Duffy in trouble with the Mrs.



GR

[Seismic-Sam]

Who you kidding??  If you give Mrs. Duffy a choice of a $900 9mm match pistol or a $300 used EAA (which will kill a bad guy just as dead) and $600 for a pair of 1/2 carat diamond earrings, it's  a no-brainer!!   DUHHHHHH......

[Walt-Sherrill]

I got the sense that she handled a couple of guns, and the EAA felt best.  But a number of less expensive guns will feel just as good -- or potentialy better.  (And she doesn't really NEED a large, heavy framed gun for 9mm.)

[Duffy1]

Folks,
Thanks for the feedback.  We have handled the CZ75's and the larger Witness and have spent time reviewing the CZ 85 (thanks Walt) and have been doing some other general reading but in the final analysis it came down to the feel of the grip of the large frame Vs the small frame.  The large frame felt very similar to her S&W Model 41 and, she liked the weight and balance.  Would I rather spend less than more?  You bet but I stand no chance with trying to sell her on the idea of the smaller and less expensive gun - especially after she "reminds" me that I spend on average $2500 for the lovely 1911's I have in the safe.  

I checked with EAA and they are getting a shippment in in about 3 weeks.  It seems that street price is about $800 to $850.  If anyone could recommend a good dealer please drop me a note.  Any additional brainfood would be appreciated - I want to make sure I buy Diane a good gun.

Thanks for all the help.

[Seismic-Sam]

your 1911's AVERAGE $2500 each???   You know, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just BUY a minor partnership in Strayer-Voight and be done with it.

As far as brain food is concerned, if your wife likes the larger frame and you want the most bang for your buck (literally), why are you considering 9mm instead of 38 Super??  While the original 38 Super case design sucks big flat rocks, you can get 9x23 Winchester case and load the sucker WAAAYYYY above 9mm potential if you want to.  Same 18 round capacity in a full size frame, which is a bunch, and it gives your wife's gun at whole lot more "high end potential".

For that matter, are you SURE she wouldn't like a 10mm instead??  Today's factory 10mm ammo is pretty mild except for Corbon and DoubleTap, but again it gives you a whole lot more headroom if she wants it.

Last Spring I helped as a range officer for about 25 women who had nover shot a gun before, and I brought my daughter's Smith 617 and a Mauser HSc 380.  I figured that would be enough.  Hoo boy!!  People started bringing out their 40's and 45's, and the women just kept on shooting and loving it.  So I haul my 50 GI out of its holster, and wound up going home later witn no ammo!!  Yup - three of the first timers had a ball with a FIFTY caliber 1911, which is about the same as a full power 10mm with a little extra OOOMPH!!   How sure are you your wife wouldn't like a 40 or 10mm if she had the chance to get used to it??  An EAA 10mm with 14+1 capacity is enough firepower to bring down anything smaller than Godzilla with a single clip.

[Duffy1]

Sam,
She is very comfortable with the recoil on her 22 and was very sure she did not want to go to a large caliber.  She did not like my 45 even though I reload light and she did not like the recoil on the 38 in my S&W 627 Performance special (revolver).  She tried a buddy's Baer in a 9mm and she was comfortable with that.  My goal is to get her into banging steel plates and maybe, just maybe she'll join me at an IPSC or IDPA match (that would be cool).  If we can get her comfortable with a 9mm maybe a 40 is the next step but - one step at a time.