P10C Trigger Creep and Stacking?

[homeyclaus]

So for a single-action striker trigger I had hoped for a little more crispness. Yes, it's better than the XD series and the other single action striker-fired triggers out there, but there is some creep, and that can stack up in the right conditions. It's really minor, but it means that when you press past the initial stop, there is a little more movement before it breaks, which has the effect of feeling like the trigger is lighter than it actually is. And in spite of the Glock comparisons, it's not really valid, because a Glock is double-action only and the striker spring isn't compressed until the trigger bar moves it rearward.

So when the trigger sear is dry, my pistol (albeit new, ~500 rounds or so, +150 a week) has ever-so-slight stacking between the stop after take-up and the time the striker is released. Not really noticeable when firing, but it's definitely there.

I applied some T-25 grease on the sear the creep is still there, but it doesn't stack up. I would not expect component flex to be the issue here since the trigger bar is incredibly rigid on this pistol.

Compared to the Beretta APX, in spite longer trigger travel and reset, there is no creep before the break.

So has anyone noticed this, and perhaps worked out a way to address it?

[flattusmaximus78]

I just shot both of mine.

[armoredman]

Actually a Glock Safe Action has the striker partially cocked, and then moves it to the rear the rest of the way before releasing it. A true double action only pistol is rare, and starts from a lowered hammer. I think the only DAO striker fired was the vP70z, IIRC, which was 50 years ago or so. I do believe the P-10C works pretty much the same way.
I am not really used to striker triggers, as this is my first striker I've owned, but I've qualified with the Glock 17 and 19 for over 15 years now, and from the beat up stock range guns we have, I can confidently say my personal P-10C trigger is much better. Again, those Glocks have been BEATEN to death, so that will probably factor in, too.
Short answer, never noticed a problem, so no, I haven't addressed anything. However, Cajun Gun Works is getting closer to getting a full package for the P-10C, and I have had CGW magic before - everything is better with Cajun.

[earlan357]

The P10C trigger uses the same "Safe Action" as a Glock.  Unlike most other striker guns, Glock and P10s do not use a rotating sear to release a fully cocked striker.  The strikers are "half-cocked" when the trigger is forward.  The Glock trigger housing has a slot that widens about halfway through the trigger pull which allows the trigger bar to drop and release the striker.  On the P10C, it's reversed.  The slot is in the trigger bar but performs the same function.  Both trigger bars bump up against a connector which angles the trigger bar down away from the striker, releasing it once it reaches its end point.  The P10 trigger feels better due to geometry differences and the P10s trigger bar design being a lot stiffer since it straddles the magwell. 

One thing every striker fired gun I've owned does is have an inconsistent break when dry-firing.  The reason is due to the vertical slop in the slide to frame fit.  For the gun to fire, the trigger bar has to move down, away from the striker to release it.  Since the striker is in the slide, the distance can change depending on whether the slide is sitting high or low on the rails.  On both the Glock and P10c, if you pull up on the slide, then slowly pull the trigger, you can see the slide drop every so slightly as the trigger bar drags down on the striker leg.  Dryfire while pulling the rear of the slide up away from the frame, the again while pushing it down and you'll notice a tiny difference in the break.  It's slight, but due to the geometry of the trigger, a tiny change in vertical distance is magnified about 4 times at your finger.  Now with a loaded magazine in the gun, the spring pressure from the mag is pushing up on the slide, resulting in the shortest trigger pull.  When I measure trigger pulls, I insert a magazine with 6 dummy rounds to get a more consistent trigger pull which is closer to what I'd get during live fire.

The P10s striker/slide design also exacerbates this because of the slop in the slide cover.  Since the slide cover isn't locked in place, and can allow the trigger bar to pull the striker leg down with it.  Push the slide cover up, then pull the trigger slowly and you might see the slide cover drop down a hair as you reach the break.  Not much you can do about it except polish the trigger surfaces, either manually or by shooting it a lot, or running lighter striker springs to reduce the friction between the trigger bar and striker leg.

[homeyclaus]

I stand corrected, having looked at the assembly in detail another time, it does move pretty much like a Glock action.

I also looked at @earlan357's description and this is indeed the case, which also means that the number of rounds in the magazine can cause an every so slight change in trigger feel because of the pressure the rounds in the magazine exert on the slide. And the P10C indeed creeps a lot less with a mag full of snap caps pushing against the slide.

[Vex001]

I came to this forum looking for info on exactly this and want to thank you for the detailed write up on the issue. I experience this with my p10c and am very much looking forward to getting back home and seeing if this is what's happening. It isn't too much of a problem for me as I don't notice it when shooting (I do a lot of shooting on the move/drills/etc. so I'm typically focused on way more things). As long as I can understand the reason I can put the frustration to rest.

Thank you!

The P10C trigger uses the same "Safe Action" as a Glock.  Unlike most other striker guns, Glock and P10s do not use a rotating sear to release a fully cocked striker.  The strikers are "half-cocked" when the trigger is forward.  The Glock trigger housing has a slot that widens about halfway through the trigger pull which allows the trigger bar to drop and release the striker.  On the P10C, it's reversed.  The slot is in the trigger bar but performs the same function.  Both trigger bars bump up against a connector which angles the trigger bar down away from the striker, releasing it once it reaches its end point.  The P10 trigger feels better due to geometry differences and the P10s trigger bar design being a lot stiffer since it straddles the magwell. 

One thing every striker fired gun I've owned does is have an inconsistent break when dry-firing.  The reason is due to the vertical slop in the slide to frame fit.  For the gun to fire, the trigger bar has to move down, away from the striker to release it.  Since the striker is in the slide, the distance can change depending on whether the slide is sitting high or low on the rails.  On both the Glock and P10c, if you pull up on the slide, then slowly pull the trigger, you can see the slide drop every so slightly as the trigger bar drags down on the striker leg.  Dryfire while pulling the rear of the slide up away from the frame, the again while pushing it down and you'll notice a tiny difference in the break.  It's slight, but due to the geometry of the trigger, a tiny change in vertical distance is magnified about 4 times at your finger.  Now with a loaded magazine in the gun, the spring pressure from the mag is pushing up on the slide, resulting in the shortest trigger pull.  When I measure trigger pulls, I insert a magazine with 6 dummy rounds to get a more consistent trigger pull which is closer to what I'd get during live fire.

The P10s striker/slide design also exacerbates this because of the slop in the slide cover.  Since the slide cover isn't locked in place, and can allow the trigger bar to pull the striker leg down with it.  Push the slide cover up, then pull the trigger slowly and you might see the slide cover drop down a hair as you reach the break.  Not much you can do about it except polish the trigger surfaces, either manually or by shooting it a lot, or running lighter striker springs to reduce the friction between the trigger bar and striker leg.

[Joe L]

With a loaded magazine everything about the gun's trigger pull seems pretty consistent to me.  Especially after a CGW striker and some polishing, my P-10C and P-10F seem to have very consistent triggers.  Good enough for bullseye matches anyway.   
Joe

[aflevine]

The P10C trigger uses the same "Safe Action" as a Glock.  Unlike most other striker guns, Glock and P10s do not use a rotating sear to release a fully cocked striker.  The strikers are "half-cocked" when the trigger is forward.  The Glock trigger housing has a slot that widens about halfway through the trigger pull which allows the trigger bar to drop and release the striker.  On the P10C, it's reversed.  The slot is in the trigger bar but performs the same function.  Both trigger bars bump up against a connector which angles the trigger bar down away from the striker, releasing it once it reaches its end point.  The P10 trigger feels better due to geometry differences and the P10s trigger bar design being a lot stiffer since it straddles the magwell. 

One thing every striker fired gun I've owned does is have an inconsistent break when dry-firing.  The reason is due to the vertical slop in the slide to frame fit.  For the gun to fire, the trigger bar has to move down, away from the striker to release it.  Since the striker is in the slide, the distance can change depending on whether the slide is sitting high or low on the rails.  On both the Glock and P10c, if you pull up on the slide, then slowly pull the trigger, you can see the slide drop every so slightly as the trigger bar drags down on the striker leg.  Dryfire while pulling the rear of the slide up away from the frame, the again while pushing it down and you'll notice a tiny difference in the break.  It's slight, but due to the geometry of the trigger, a tiny change in vertical distance is magnified about 4 times at your finger.  Now with a loaded magazine in the gun, the spring pressure from the mag is pushing up on the slide, resulting in the shortest trigger pull.  When I measure trigger pulls, I insert a magazine with 6 dummy rounds to get a more consistent trigger pull which is closer to what I'd get during live fire.

The P10s striker/slide design also exacerbates this because of the slop in the slide cover.  Since the slide cover isn't locked in place, and can allow the trigger bar to pull the striker leg down with it.  Push the slide cover up, then pull the trigger slowly and you might see the slide cover drop down a hair as you reach the break.  Not much you can do about it except polish the trigger surfaces, either manually or by shooting it a lot, or running lighter striker springs to reduce the friction between the trigger bar and striker leg.

First, thank you for making that YouTube video on polishing.  It made understanding the mechanism and where to polish vastly easier!  Just did the polish taking my Dremel to the points you suggested to high polish with no issues.  Using a Q-tip, I also carefully hand-polished the slot in the  trigger bar.  For that tiny trigger safety,  I polished it in the plastic housing supporting it with my finger.  While everything was disassembled, I also polished the four rail guides (unlike my Glock, it's nice that you can actually get all the way around these since they're not anchored in the frame).  As the sides of the trigger bar seem to  rub against the inside of the frame, I went ahead and polished the outside of these too.  Like the Glock, I oiled the trigger internals at friction points.

As an aside, I did not find that it was necessary to remove the disassembly plate retainer and its spring when you disassemble.  It comes out as part of the insert front and slide stop assembly once you pull the two pins.  In other words, I took out the two pins and then the take-down bar and the whole assembly came out including the plunger under the take-down bar and its tiny spring.

[jolebole]

You are for sure experiencing the same creep and stagines that I do. in my book its pretty bad out of the box. I expected a much better triger then  this. My Gen1 P10C had much better trigger then the new P10S. I installed the HBI trigger but that only changed the feel and consistency in the trigger pull, but it did not remove the creep and stacking. It will definitely need some trigger bar/sear polishing. I dont undestand how a cheaper Canik TP9 can have nickel plated trigger bar and components and CZ wont bother with making a smoother action trigger. Its beyond me.

So for a single-action striker trigger I had hoped for a little more crispness. Yes, it's better than the XD series and the other single action striker-fired triggers out there, but there is some creep, and that can stack up in the right conditions. It's really minor, but it means that when you press past the initial stop, there is a little more movement before it breaks, which has the effect of feeling like the trigger is lighter than it actually is. And in spite of the Glock comparisons, it's not really valid, because a Glock is double-action only and the striker spring isn't compressed until the trigger bar moves it rearward.

So when the trigger sear is dry, my pistol (albeit new, ~500 rounds or so, +150 a week) has ever-so-slight stacking between the stop after take-up and the time the striker is released. Not really noticeable when firing, but it's definitely there.

I applied some T-25 grease on the sear the creep is still there, but it doesn't stack up. I would not expect component flex to be the issue here since the trigger bar is incredibly rigid on this pistol.

Compared to the Beretta APX, in spite longer trigger travel and reset, there is no creep before the break.

So has anyone noticed this, and perhaps worked out a way to address it?