Author Topic: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run  (Read 1771 times)

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Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 03:06:36 PM »
DF_Hammack, based on GunBroker auction results, most are selling in the $700+ range.  I think the gun shop that sold this one just didn't bother to look up the auction results.

win308, that's great information.  It's looking more and more like I should be able to fix it.  I'll try to do some comparing tonight.

Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 08:57:00 PM »
Here are a couple of pictures that I took of the sear assembly housing from above.
On the left is a Tanfoglio (Witness) sear assembly housing.  On the right is the AT84S sear assembly housing.


On the left is a CZ75 sear assembly housing.  On the right is the AT84S sear assembly housing.


So even though this is a Tanfoglio pattern AT84S, the sear assembly housing looks closer to the CZ75 type, though it's not exact.  I really don't know what to make of this.  There's also an outside possibility that whoever did the trigger job on this pistol installed the CZ75 type sear assembly housing when the original was the Tanfoglio.  Incorrect fit could have resulted in the ejector breaking.  I know this isn't likely, but I'm just trying to consider all possibilities.  It would really be very helpful if someone who has a Tanfoglio looking AT84S could post pictures of the same viewpoint.

Thoughts?

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 01:38:09 AM »
I am just guessing here, because I really don't know, but I do know there are generational differences between Tanfoglio pistols, I just don't know what they are. I expect this gun was assembled from TA-90 parts which was the first generation with a frame mounted safety
Tristar P100 - SAR B6P

Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American - Congressman Tenche Coxe, 1788

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2018, 09:36:33 PM »
As I understand it, the original AT-84 was a licensed copy of the CZ made in Switzerland by ITM.   The West generally wouldn't do business with the Communist Bloc, and the Communist Bloc was very hesitant to share things like weapon designs with the West.  Only a few countries in the West would do business with Warsaw Pact/Communist Bloc countries.  West Germany and Canada were among them.

The AT-84s came later, after Tanfoglio got the design specs from a CZ engineer who defected to the West and went to work there.  The AT-84s is based on the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design.  It looks and feels like a CZ but is definitely NOT a clone.  (About the only Tanfoglio parts back then -- and since --  that can be used in a CZ is the Tanfoglio recoil spring (which has a larger diameter) and most Tanfoglio magazines.  Most of the Israeli and Turkish guns are also based on the Tanfoglio design.  (Some of the Turkish guns seems to be a hybrid with traits of both the CZ and the Tanfoglio design.)

I've had a couple of AT-84s models and they're generally nicely-finished guns -- and the ones I've seen were nicely blued.

The AT-84s pictured below, is one I've owned for maybe 15+ years, and it remains one of my favorite handguns.  I was told  it was built by Jim Boland, a big name IPSC gunsmith back in the late '80s.  But, when I finally got around to trying to find out about the gun's history, I learned that Boland was dead and I was never able to verify that he built it.  It does share a number of traits and features I've seen in photos of guns built by Boland.  It has a bunch of custom features, including a mag well, extended beavertail, bobbed hammer, adjustable BO-MAR sight, etc.   (I had the slide nickel plated, as the matte black slide was scratched up when I got it.  I should have done the frame, too, and may still do that some day.) 

This AT-84s seems to be a true semi-custom/custom gun, and it's simply the slickest, smoothest, best-shooting CZ pattern gun I've ever owned, shot, or handled -- and that includes several 2000-series Sphinx guns, as well as a very slick Sphinx SDP.

                       
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 06:17:18 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2018, 11:27:30 PM »
Walt, would you mind taking a picture of your pistol's sear assembly housing?  I'm needing to determine if mine is original or has somehow been replaced.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 11:58:52 AM »
Still dirty after the last range session:


Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 02:33:53 PM »
Thanks Walt.  That confirms that mine is original and just broken.  I'm hoping to be able to get it apart tomorrow.

Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 10:49:30 AM »
I removed the sear cage today.  The little piece in the upper left corner fell out during the process, but I can't figure out where it came from.  It seems to have fallen from the left side of the pistol.  Any ideas?


One thing that I figured out which probably should have been obvious to me is that the AT84S does not have a firing pin block safety.  As you can see, its slide (on the left) does not have the plunger.  Since both TA90's that I have do have the plunger, I think that I need a sear cage from the Tanfoglio model that predates the TA90.  Does anyone know what the Tanfoglio model designation was?  Or, does anyone know of a particular Tanfoglio model that doesn't having a firing pin block safety?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:17:08 PM by Bret »

Offline win308

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 02:32:05 PM »
Bret........the little arrowhead piece is the safety detent.  On the safety in the picture you see the little spring,, the arrowhead rides on that spring with the point pointing to the little post.  On the outside of the frame there is a small recess by the safety hole where arrowhead will nest.  You flip the safety up, the detent, pushed by the spring, locks the safety in the up position.  Safety down and the detent will lock the safety down, powered by that small coil spring.  If you look at the safety, there is a small hole drilled on the side.  There is also a small hole drilled in the detent. Before removing the safety from the gun, you stick a paper clip thru the hole in the safety and thru the hole in the detent to hold those two pieces together....otherwise the dent under spring pressure goes flying.  (As you mentioned). 

To reassemble, you will need to set the detent on the spring and insert a paper clip thru both holes to hold it in place on the safety....good luck.  Do this in a zip lock bag, or that piece will go flying who knows where.

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 04:01:28 PM »
...
One thing that I figured out which probably should have been obvious to me is that the AT84S does not have a firing pin block safety.  As you can see, its slide (on the left) does not have the plunger.  Since both TA90's that I have do have the plunger, I think that I need a sear cage from the Tanfoglio model that predates the TA90.  Does anyone know what the Tanfoglio model designation was?  Or, does anyone know of a particular Tanfoglio model that doesn't having a firing pin block safety?
...

I had always been told the TA-90 was the same gun as the Tanfoglio TZ 75/88, and that was the designation for USA sales. The original TZ 75, the model the /88 replaced, had a slide mounted safety. I am just guessing here, but it's possible the /88 did not have a firing pin block. Since I sold my /88, 25 years ago, I just don't remember.

EDIT: I found this at chuckhawks.com...
During the 1980s, the Italian firm of Fratellli Tanfoglio S.P.A. manufactured a CZ-75 clone, with and without a firing pin safety. While the original TZ-75 featured a slide-mounted decocker safety, the test pistol called a “Series 88,” reverted to the CZ-standard frame-mounted manual thumb safety that is far more ergonomic. The primary detraction is the nearly useless squared trigger guard. However, to be fair, the CZ’s also have this affectation.
http://chuckhawks.com/tz-75.htm
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:19:06 PM by DF_Hammack »
Tristar P100 - SAR B6P

Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American - Congressman Tenche Coxe, 1788

Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 11:24:33 PM »
win308, thanks for the instructions.  I guess that I got lucky that I didn't lose anything.

DF_Hammack, that link was an excellent read.  It seems that I need a frame mounted "Series 88" Tanfoglio sear cage.  If anyone has one of these pistols and can post a picture looking down at the sear cage, I'd greatly appreciate it.   

Offline Vernonion

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 11:29:20 PM »
Now that you have it narrowed down, why not email or call EAA?

Offline Bret

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 09:27:40 AM »
Because I'm not 100% sure yet.  That's why I'd like to see a picture of the Series 88 sear cage if someone can provide one.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 02:04:30 PM »
RE: the ejector...  If you give EAA parts a call, they might be able to help you.  They apparently can supply some parts for a number of older Tanfoglio-built/supplied parts for older guns based on the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design.  It's worth a try.

As for the unidentified part -- it looks like the firing pin stop.  But the opening in that part must be large enough to allow the hammer-struck end of the firing pin to stick through, and in that photo, it doesn't look large enough.    (Many modern guns don't using a firing pin stop, so it's hard to recognize it when you see it.)   If it IS the firing pin stop, where is/where was the firing pin and firing pin spring?  :))

Offline win308

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Re: Scored a nice ITM AT84S, but it won't run
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 02:39:05 PM »
Bret.....detent attached to safety:


 

anything