Author Topic: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics  (Read 1297 times)

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Offline Vinny

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Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« on: February 08, 2018, 09:04:47 AM »
I stumbled across this exhaustive 4 year study and Whitepaper prepared by Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics on the use of handgun RDS for military & police.

Anyone doubting the effectiveness of RDS on a handgun should read this:

https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/<a href="" target="_blank"></a>

Of course they're not for everyone, and IF my eyes were as good as they were 30 years ago I might not bother, and just stick to my irons.

However, in the future RDS will be as prolific as a scope on rifle. Just Say'in.

This 'ol dog can still learn new tricks!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 09:43:48 AM by Vinny »
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Offline BionKiwi963

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 03:41:44 PM »
Quote
...However, in the future RDS will be as prolific as a scope on rifle. Just Say'in.
This 'ol dog can still learn new tricks!

I agree. I predict RDS-compatibility will become more and more standard on carry guns. However, iron sights won't go away. I believe concurrent iron sights complement the RDS setup. Iron sights make target-acquisition quicker with the RDS.

Liability-reduction will drive LEO adoption, but prices need to come down before widespread LEO adoption. Considering the high proportion of misses of the total rounds expended in LEO firearm engagements (as much as 90%), it seems smart from a liability standpoint to equip LEO with a device that can increase accuracy and reduce the number of rounds that miss the intended target because those rounds can hit an unintended bystander!

Offline Vinny

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 08:23:23 PM »
Excellent observation about potential liability issues driving LEO adoption. It could take awhile though.

Military and civilian will undoubtedly be sooner. RDS is such an advantage, once past the training/learning curve.
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Offline Tyerone

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 08:57:10 PM »
Quote
...However, in the future RDS will be as prolific as a scope on rifle. Just Say'in.
This 'ol dog can still learn new tricks!

I agree. I predict RDS-compatibility will become more and more standard on carry guns. However, iron sights won't go away. I believe concurrent iron sights complement the RDS setup. Iron sights make target-acquisition quicker with the RDS.

Liability-reduction will drive LEO adoption, but prices need to come down before widespread LEO adoption. Considering the high proportion of misses of the total rounds expended in LEO firearm engagements (as much as 90%), it seems smart from a liability standpoint to equip LEO with a device that can increase accuracy and reduce the number of rounds that miss the intended target because those rounds can hit an unintended bystander!

Merely eliminating those lawyer influenced 100lb triggers would go a long way towards not hitting innocent bystanders!

Offline John A.

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 10:47:03 PM »
Make one that doesn't ever need batteries, I'd be a customer.

Until then, I like my irons.   They don't ever go dead.
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Offline SlvrDragon50

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 12:07:33 AM »
Make one that doesn't ever need batteries, I'd be a customer.

Until then, I like my irons.   They don't ever go dead.

Already several from Trijicon.

Offline Vinny

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 04:35:20 AM »
Make one that doesn't ever need batteries, I'd be a customer.

Until then, I like my irons.   They don't ever go dead.

Some still like rifles without scopes too. It's OK.

But with a handgun mini-RDS you CAN have BOTH irons and RDS. Images below show my P-07 iron only with a tritium front; then Red Dot.

Irons only above with red dot OFF

Red Dot on pictured below:
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 04:39:00 AM by Vinny »
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Offline HST

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 08:02:03 AM »
I have made the switch to optic's and will never go back. The fact that my close in vision is shot and i am still 20/20 for distance helped me make the call.
My shooting has improved immensely and i no longer have to worry if i can see the site but not the target or the target not the site . Plus once you get use to
it ,it is very fast to pick up the  target . 
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 10:04:14 AM »
I have made the switch to optic's and will never go back. The fact that my close in vision is shot and i am still 20/20 for distance helped me make the call.
My shooting has improved immensely and i no longer have to worry if i can see the site but not the target or the target not the site . Plus once you get use to
it ,it is very fast to pick up the  target .

+1
Same experience here. I'm up to 2.50 readers but my distance vision is still OK. Being able to focus both eyes on target with RDS eliminates need for any corrective lenses and squinting at irons. Also increases situational awareness.
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Offline woody57

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »
I have Red Dots on my Bullseye guns and really like them. But for a carry gun I just see problems. First they have to be tuned on, is the battery still good, is the sun behind you and putting a glare on the lens washing out the dot. I do not want to depend on a $2 battery to save my familyes life!

Offline Vinny

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 02:47:13 PM »
I have Red Dots on my Bullseye guns and really like them. But for a carry gun I just see problems. First they have to be tuned on, is the battery still good, is the sun behind you and putting a glare on the lens washing out the dot. I do not want to depend on a $2 battery to save my familyes life!

Good points.
Like TV's and other electronics RDS have improved tremendously over the past few years. On modern RDS, they remain ON 24/7 yet batteries can last years, dots are self-adjusting to ambient light, even compensate for a tactical light. And a defensive handgun will still have good backup co-witness irons. But knowing which is the best to buy for defensive use is still a matter of opinion, but the cream is slowly rising to the top.

The biggest obstacle for adoption is the cost, but that's dropping fast.

I'm old enough to remember all the jokes when polymer handguns were first introduced. I don't hear any laughing anymore. But I do understand those that still swear by and insist upon a metal frame gun, and good iron sights.

God Bless America and those that have fought for and serve to protect the freedoms and choices we enjoy.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 02:53:12 PM by Vinny »
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 03:27:00 PM »
Add:  and when pistol manufacturers include a low mount option for an RDS without cumbersome mounts or costly machine work.   An option to just drill and tap a RDS friendly slide for most RDS brands  would be reasonable.

Offline Vinny

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 05:04:28 PM »
Add:  and when pistol manufacturers include a low mount option for an RDS without cumbersome mounts or costly machine work.   An option to just drill and tap a RDS friendly slide for most RDS brands would be reasonable.

+1   ;D   
A few manufacturers are already doing this; and the best options will have the OEM front and rear sights set up to co-witness the RDS.
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Offline Alcoy

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 06:00:55 PM »

A few manufacturers are already doing this; and the best options will have the OEM front and rear sights set up to co-witness the RDS.

I hope this to be the norm in the future.  I have an rmr on one of my carry gun.  Love it.  My eyes are not the same when I was in my twenties.  I can't see the front sight and target past 15 yards clearly at the same time.

RDS gives me that option.

Offline armoredman

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Re: Red Dot effectivness for LEO -4 year study by Sage Dynamics
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 09:40:01 PM »
Make one that doesn't ever need batteries, I'd be a customer.

Until then, I like my irons.   They don't ever go dead.

Already several from Trijicon.

Now make it so I can afford it and sturdy enough for every day carry. Since Trijicon is miles outside my price range, I suppose I will continue to use irons - they never grow dim or die. :) I do like red dots on my long guns - the AR Optics TRS 32 is a good dot for the BREN.

 

anything