Author Topic: Which one?  (Read 5694 times)

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BRASMAN

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Which one?
« on: September 21, 2005, 03:37:59 AM »
I just found out that I have the funds to aquire a new homeland defense tool. He He.
Which one? I will not ask this question on other boards because I know what the answere would be.

1. The New Ruger .45
Very comfortable, Rail (yes it is important) and good price but I have to buy new mags and the factory is only 8rdrs.

2. Glock 21 Go ahead and spring for it.
13RD mags, I like the sights and the trigger and the finish.
It also has a rail. I would have to buy new mags and the pistol is almost $600.

3. Springfield GI Champion
Hey its a 1911 and I can use mags for it in other pistols I have. It is cheaper than the Glock and can be upgraded fairly easy and is probably more accurate than the other choices.
It is not double action and has no rail.

4.EAA Witness P carry 10mm. It takes the full sized 10mm mags but has the shorter slide. If I can find one.

So which one do you guys recomend. I have been talking about it for a while but can act now. What started this was I wanted a double action .45 with a rail that I could carry if I wanted to but could also use for home defense with a light on it which is why I wanted the rails and I also want to be able to take it camping and move it and bang it around yada yada yada. I wanted a 10rd or above idealy but relize that might not happen.  

KingPolymer-III

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Which one?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2005, 04:13:19 AM »
All are excellent choices and you should make it a point to get them all eventually.  Make a spreadsheet and budget for them accordingly.  I have the Glock 21 and love it, as well as the Witness.  I don't have the Springfield, but do have several AutoOrdinance Thompson Kahr 1911s and love them, but in the end,  your best value for the money is::D
(and it comes with two mags). (I know you can reload fast:D :D )


Offline Grendel

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Which one?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2005, 07:00:18 AM »
Glock 21

Bunches of cheap aftermarket stuff
Doesn't mind being banged around
Plenty of good used ones on the market
Hi cap mag capacity
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

I wasn't born in America, but I got here as fast as I could.

Offline jwc007

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Which one?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2005, 10:05:09 AM »
For me it would be between the Ruger KP345 and the Witness P Carry 10mm, except I would consider the Witness P Carry in .45 ACP (and I'm currently thinking about buying one of those).  What it boils down to is whether you want a .45 or 10mm for defense, with the probable edge going to the .45 ACP as there is more ammo available for it.

At this time, since I have no direct experience with the Poly framed Witnesses, I would at this time recommend the Ruger KP345, as I have shot a few of them, that have come into our range, and I know that they are reliable.  Have thought of buying one.  I like the design better than the previous Ruger P Series.

I have read posts here that show the Compact Poly framed .45 Witnesses to be reliable, but they are not exactly the same as the Witness P Carry, having a coned barrel front lockup.  Hence, I cannot fully recommend the Witness P Carry at this time, although my first instinct would be to like them.  That's as impartial as I get!
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

mbott

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Which one?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2005, 10:30:26 AM »
The only one in your list I have is the Ruger, so that's where my vote (if I had one) lies.  It's solid, accurate and reliable and would serve you just as well as any of the others you list while providing a rail and DA.

Quote
Quote:
... but I have to buy new mags and the factory is only 8rdrs.


I've alway believed that in most situations where a gun is actually drawn and fired, the number of rounds expended averaged something like 3 or 4.  Anybody have any additional information on that?

--
Mike  


KingPolymer-III

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Which one?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2005, 04:02:48 AM »
"I've alway believed that in most situations where a gun is actually drawn and fired, the number of rounds expended averaged something like 3 or 4. Anybody have any additional information on that?"

  Your data is correct, but I have always believed in the better safe and prepared than sorry doctrine. :D  , this is why I like the fact that Ruger includes two mags with it.  I keep an extra loaded mag with me.

Stasher1

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Which one?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2005, 04:12:48 PM »
Quote
Quote:
2. Glock 21 Go ahead and spring for it.
13RD mags, I like the sights and the trigger and the finish.
It also has a rail. I would have to buy new mags and the pistol is almost $600.


Man, where do you live that a Glock 21 is $600? They're all over the place for about $500 NIB.

Offline Golddogman

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Which one?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 04:39:39 PM »
For me, the top three qualifications for a defensive firearm, assuming it will be from a major manufacturer are:
1) trigger
2) trigger
3) trigger.

Therefore, the Springfield single action. I simply do not understand why experienced shooters who like guns have any interest whatever in TDA or DAO triggers.

I'd rather have a CZ B than any of the above, since the trigger will be close to the quality of the 1911, and reliability and ergonomics are likely to be superior.

KingPolymer-III

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Which one?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 05:49:55 PM »
,well, you have gotten some good feedback brassman,  the only requirement now is that you share what you get with us and a subsequent range report is mandatory.
  It sounds like you need another subliminal visual seed planted in your brain.:D


:D

BRASMAN

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Which one?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2005, 02:34:45 AM »
Well I went to the store today and had narrowed it down to the Ruger or the Glock. However I saw a Bulgarian AK that I could not live without :(  so the next hand gun will have to wait however I am still a little torn between the Ruger and the Glock. The 13rd mags are a huge plus but the Ruger is more comfortable to me. I will have to give a range report when I shoot the AK. The quality is a lot higher than the Romanian rifles so I am interested in what it will group at 100.

KingPolymer-III

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Which one?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2005, 04:09:38 AM »
Congradulations on the Romanian AK.  They are excellent.
, I think in the end , you will end up buying both the Ruger and the Glock.

Offline jwc007

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Which one?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2005, 09:48:36 AM »
Congrats on the Bulgarian AK!  Generally, the ones available here are made up by Arsenal, Inc.  Available with either Stamped or Milled Frames.  Very high quality and I have used some of their parts.  Would be my choice for a basic AK.

www.arsenalinc.com/
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

BRASMAN

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Which one?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2005, 10:15:53 AM »
The one I got is an Arsenal on the Bulgarian stamped reciever. The milled American ones are nice but around where I am at they want about $700 for those and I am not paying that. If I went that expensive on an AK I would go ahead and order a Krebs custom. I would realy like to have a Vepr 7.62x39 in a KTR or a Vepr .308 in a KTR converted to use m-14 mags. For a standard AK though I do think the Arsenals with the milled recieves are the nicest things going.

King: Unfortunatly you are correct. I probably will end up with both. I am a .45 guy and would like to give both my boys one so one more will happen someday after all its for the children!

CZ57

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Which one?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2005, 01:32:28 PM »
Brassman: There are several great polymer frame .45s. The H&K USP is probably the most expensive and many feel it's worth every penny. The Glocks are great, but have one significant drawback for reloaders, the ejection ports are not relieved as on most pistols. When your empty cases eject, they are thrown into and strike the slides ejection port, evidenced by the triangular scar on the casemouth. The .45 ACP is a low pressure cartridge in relation to 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W and the 10mm, so the .45 may be the least affected. Some will tell you that they have never seen the scars and I'll tell you that since I do examine my brass before reloading, I have never seen a Glock pistol that didn't ding the casemouth. No problem if you only shoot factory ammo, but if you reload that scar on the casemouth can lead to premature splits on the casemouth. You can take the Glock to a competent gunsmith, or even a good machinist and have the ejection port relieved, but that should be a consideration of the original purchase price! Glock skips that step because they are probably the most vehement about using only factory ammo in their pistols. I like the larger grip frame of the 20 & 21 and the 21 is accurate and easy shooting, the model 30 shoots even softer with its dual recoil spring set-up, but with the purchase of any Glock, include the price of having that ejection port relieved. Add a 3.5 lb. connector and you'll be in high cotton. BTW, I have bought 4 Glocks over the years. The AGI pistolsmith videos will confirm everything I've stated.

When a new pistol really strikes my fancy, I usually wait for a track record to be established. A discipline I didn't excersize when the Glock 22 hit the market in 1990, or the H&K USP in 1994. Today, as far as 1911s go, I feel that the S&W 1911 is the one to judge all others by. As I mentioned before, my shooting partner has the commander size scandium framed Sc and I don't know how anyone could make a better 1911. I shoot it often and my next 1911 will be one of the two currently in the horserace. I really like the Dan Wesson, but a little time will bring the prices down, I think, after the acquisition by CZ. It will also provide some time for a good track record to materialize. If it doesn't, I'll buy a S&W.

I had to have a .45 for the interim period. No pistol has really excited me lately like the P-345 did, when it was first announced. All of the ergonomic features are great, even if the trigger reach is a little short for me. Starting with the P-97, Ruger developed one of the most novel designs seen to date for their locking system. The recoil spring guide is a single unit with the camblock. The slide stop runs through the camblock and the barrel does all of it's camming in a stationary fixture. That coupled with the polymer frame really minimizes frame stress and recoil to your hand. Ruger took it even further with the P-345. If you look at the Spring guide/camblock of the 345 it will look fairly complex in relation to other systems. It is now designed and manufactured to fit exactly with recesses in the frame with virtually no movement so that the polymer frame can make most efficient use of the shock absorbing polymer frame and it is held completely stationary by the slide stop. The camblock now shrouds the barrel cam to improve lock-up over the P-97 system. Ruger also added a rather unique approach to the excellent concept of dual spring stress/recoil reduction. Rather than use a heavy conventional secondary spring, They used a brass sleeve that has a helictacal groove cut into it to transform it into a spring/shock absorber. It freely rides the spring guide and the main recoil spring rides over it. In short (or long) it works! My 345 is the softest shooting .45 ACP I have ever fired and it locks up tighter than any Ruger Pistol of the past.

The P-97 was a great pistol and very accurate for a pistol with a 4.2" barrel. CDNN was selling off the last of them for $290 and I thought seriously about getting one, but all of the design features as well as the new grip shape (very CZ like) and full checkering on the grip, caused me to spend the little extra and get the pistol I knew I would have to have at some point. Ruger P series pistols are very functional/reliable and that is as far as most compliments extend. The P-90 is noted for above average accuracy and the P-97 is as well with the benefit of being more compact and ease of shooting by virtue of the stress/recoil absorption properties of its polymer frame. Strong enough that Ruger doesn't have to injection mold steel rails into the frame like Glock and H&K do. The 345 is slightly slimmer than the P-97, making it I feel an exceptonal carry pistol for those that understand what is required to conceal a service size auto. I have an Uncle Mikes mirage holster made for the 1911/Hi-Power that was gathering dust. The fit is a little snug, but the 345 will fit into it and that is how I carry at the range. Custom fit holsters are on the way and when a good pancake with a forward cant comes along for it, hopefully from El Paso Saddlery, that is what my 345 will ride in. Not only is the 345 an excellent value, I feel it will hold its own against the Glock 21, or the H&K USP, any day of the week. The low price reflects as it should, the lower cost of injection molding the polymer frame instead of marketing it as a feature you should pay extra for. My personal oppinion is, that this is Rugers first pistol that is truely world class and mine is very accurate. Ejected cases come out clean and ready for reloading. Another benefit is in the way this pistol easily handles .45 ACP +P loads. My favorite being the +P 185 gr. Golden Saber that I replicate with a handload using the excellent Ramshot True Blue powder!

The double action trigger improves dramatically with use, or if you are inclined as I was, you can polish the hammer and sear engagements surfaces being very careful not to remove any/minimal metal. I prefer DA's for a carry pistol. The chances of hitting a high primer and hearing click instead of bang are not as likely as they once were. The DA trigger is my "insurance policy" because I have never ran into such a scenario where the second double action primer strike failed to ignite the primer that got seated properly on the first strike, but failed to ignite!

My partners 1911 Sc is very accurate for an out of the box pistol. The P-345 will shoot with it with any load and since we both shoot my handloaded ammo, I can say that with confidence. I'm not really set up to post pics. I got the hand-me-down computer in my family because my daughter is a computer tech. I buy a new computer, she gets it and I get her used one. Take this as advice to young fathers in regard to having a daughter as an only child! That said, I wouldn't trade places with anyone! Same would go with someone offering me an H&K USP at the same price as my Ruger P-345!

KP III: help me out here. If you can post a pic of the 345's recoil spring guide/camblock maybe some of this will be better illustrated. One with the guide/camblock attached to the barrel and one pic of the guide/camblock as a stand alone unit. Sorry to impose, but I know you like yours as much as I like mine!;)      





KingPolymer-III

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Which one?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2005, 06:59:19 PM »
Kevin:
  I'll do better than that my friend.  To fully appreciate it in a three dimensional sense,  please examine #29.