Author Topic: Chicago police shooting  (Read 4611 times)

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Offline Black Wolf

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Chicago police shooting
« on: July 15, 2018, 08:45:23 AM »
Just read an interesting news article that provokes thought and can pit strongly held beliefs (in the same person) against each other.

South Side Chicago.  Police notice bulge around man's waist and believe him to be armed.  Attempt to detain and search him.  Man breaks free.  Cops give chase.  Supposedly, man reaches for waistband.  Man leaves this world.  Cops find a handgun, spare mag, no permit.

The setting would suggest this man was unlikely to be someone I'd run in to at the range or discuss AR builds with online. There is a good chance he was a thug.  For discussion sake, let's say he was.  Let's say the cure for cancer was not lost with this one.  If anything, some felonies will go uncommitted, due to his absence.  I am still FAR from ok with this.  According to the article, there was no other reason for the detainment.  It was simply a matter of them seeing his print.  Regardless of what the law says, I do not accept this as justification to remove a man's liberty.  They say he resisted (possibly even by trying to utilize a deadly weapon).  And?  If not legitimate enforcement of constitutionally correct law, how should armed men trying to capture you be responded to?

I feel the article may as well be titled - "Man killed for exercising 2nd Amendment right"

Am I alone?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-police-shooting-fatal-20180714-story,amp.html
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:30:00 AM by Black Wolf »

Offline Tyerone

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 10:24:50 AM »
Spot on, Grendel.

With your hands clearly visible in a non threatening manner, calmly inform the cop of your 4th ammendment protection; ask what the probable cause is.  Perhaps state clearly you don't give permission for them to do anything.  Maybe a guy that dressed like you just jacked a party store.  Regardless if no probable cause, file a complaint and see it through.  Otherwise the illegal "stop and frisk" tactics as once apllied in NY and Germany will just continue.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 10:28:59 AM »
While I agree when the man says show me your hands you should calmly comply but some of these situations make it harder and harder for me to take the side of police. Consider this article:
www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/14/minnesota-authorities-investigating-after-teen-fatally-shot-by-deputies.html

Recent events show some pretty cowardly actions by officers who failed to act in the face of armed and active shooters while we see things like this pop up and they can't wait to drop the hammer on the kid. Yes I know he was ordered to stop and refused and the taser didn't work but a couple real men with night sticks could have dropped the stupid kid and maybe gotten him the help he needed without killing him.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:33:16 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 10:37:06 AM »
Spot on, Grendel.

With your hands clearly visible in a non threatening manner, calmly inform the cop of your 4th ammendment protection; ask what the probable cause is.  Perhaps state clearly you don't give permission for them to do anything.  Maybe a guy that dressed like you just jacked a party store.  Regardless if no probable cause, file a complaint and see it through.  Otherwise the illegal "stop and frisk" tactics as once apllied in NY and Germany will just continue.

Ok, this is what I am talking about.  There is this ideology that you state your right, you allow them to violate it (4A in your example), then argue in court later.  Seems safe, appropriate, can't argue the logic BUT you will also hear MANY Constitutionalists say the purpose of the 2A is to protect the other Amendments.  Is that what that approach is doing?  Allow the illegal search (violate your 4A) then allow disarmament (violate your 2A) allow yourself to be captured, then hope the courts side with you.  I have trouble believing this is how our Founding Fathers envisioned us fighting tyranny.

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 10:48:22 AM »
The first link contained more about the mini riot and less details about the incident itself.

While the photo is the same, this gives more detail on events leading up to the shooting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/us/chicago-police-shooting.amp.html

I feel this is most definitely a 2A issue when their (keep in mind I was leo for many years) reasonable suspicion is "exhibiting characteristics of an armed person"

Offline Grendel

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 10:57:10 AM »
Whatever this guy was, it wasn?t a constitutionalist exercising his 2nd amendment right. He was a fool carrying a firearm without a permit in a city that has draconian laws forbidding that very thing.

While you can argue the rights and wrongs of the police actions and the Illinois laws concerning the event, all this guys non compliance got him was a slab in the mortuary.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 01:51:29 PM by Grendel »
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Offline MadDuner

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 11:30:52 AM »
LEOs develop an intuitive ability to spot "bad guys" simply by being on the job long enough.  It helps a whole bunch of them stay alive to go home to their families at end of shift.  But it's also a double-edged sword.  While they can spot the bad guy, actually doing something about it without further probable cause is where they can get into trouble.  And yes, sometimes they are wrong, but most times they are correct.  I would imagine that it's very difficult for them to walk away from somebody they know is a bad guy.

Most of these bad guys will not comply to LEOs orders - lawfully given or not.  They generally pay a much higher price for their non-compliance. 

"Good guys" comply and live - even if it means their rights are compromised and they have to get it straightened out in court. 

I have been stopped, disarmed and questioned by different Police agencies many times - simply because of the hours I've been out at night thanks to my work.  In every instance the LEOs explained their actions sufficiently to help me understand why they took the actions they did.  It was usually just an inconvenience and used up valuable sleep cycle time. My compliance and demeanor toward the LEOs during our contact went a very long way towards diffusing any hostilities between armed men in the wee hours of the morning.  Being reasonable, compliant, coherent and sober appears to go a very long way.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 01:35:51 PM »
The LEOs saw something suspicious, investigated, and then the guy did that thing that we all know gets people shot.  It's a pretty simple story. 

This was not a violation of 4A rights.  The man appeared to be concealing a weapon in an area where it is illegal to do so.  The police have the right and responsibility to investigate that.  4A protects against "unreasonable" search and seizure.  Seeing what appears to be a concealed firearm and investigating it is perfectly reasonable.  It's not like this was a stop and frisk.


Offline double-d

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2018, 01:44:44 PM »
Don't print when carrying illegally & live to see another day.  Don't like the laws enacted in CHITOWN? move the heck out of there.

No tears shed here.


Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2018, 03:09:18 PM »
Don't print when carrying illegally & live to see another day.
I carried concealed for 20 years before they issued permits in Ohio. I was never up to anything but exercising my GOD GIVEN RIGHTS and protecting myself but they can't investigate what they can't see. No one ever knew but my father who was a 38 year veteran leo.

Offline noway

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2018, 06:25:03 PM »
Don't print when carrying illegally & live to see another day.  Don't like the laws enacted in CHITOWN? move the heck out of there.

No tears shed here.

A lot of them do (move out). Problem for them is laws in other States are often FAR harsher... (Suppose they *could* move to California.)

Offline gwvt

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2018, 11:35:49 PM »
Watch the video - he took out his wallet and in so doing exposed the bottom half of the holster (at least) that was on his belt. It may be that the entire pistol was exposed momentarily but it's hard to tell. The cops went to grab his hands and he pulls away, exposing the holstered pistol and at least one spare mag. He goes into the street and then appears to attempt to draw his weapon (at least). I can't tell if he drew it or not because he went down behind the car but it looks to me like he did. His hand was definitely on the grip when they started shooting. I'm all for protecting our rights but in this instance I'd say the guy brought it on himself.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5809574283001/

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 02:52:19 AM »
personally I think he had it pretty deeply concealed,

Personally, I would not describe a full-size pistol in a non-concealment OWB holster under a tshirt as deeply concealed.

So here's what happened before the video starts.  Police see guy with a full-size pistol in a crappy nylon belt holster horribly concealed under a tshirt.  It was printing.  They could see it.  They knew what it was.  They tried to stop him to question him about it.... roll video.


Offline Grendel

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2018, 07:25:00 AM »
A guy I know on CPD states: The officers were responding to a reported gang fight. Didn't know whether dead guy was a participant or bystander, started to check him out'. The rest is on the video.

Dead guy was not a permit holder and had a few arrests on record although no felonies.

How's that PC looking now?
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

I wasn't born in America, but I got here as fast as I could.

Offline MadDuner

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Re: Chicago police shooting
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2018, 07:45:04 AM »
I have to wonder how many innocent people try to run?

And of course the next question is:
How does that work out for them?