The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: RodE on January 29, 2019, 07:20:30 AM
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I am not sure where to post this question. I apologize in advance for such a dumb one, but try to remember I am a complete newbie!!
OK.. here goes..................
Does it really make any difference to carry with the hammer at half cock or fully down on a live round? :-[
I would think the hammer block would make it safe either way! I would also think that finger pressure and time on
the trigger to fire would be about the same in either case.
Also, dropping the hammer from full cock to half cock would be a mite easier and safer.
So why would anyone carry with the hammer fully down on a live round?
(I think I am talking in circles here!!! ha ha
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I carry hammer fully at rest and it's perfectly safe and I practice firing from hammer fully down. Carry what ever way you are comfortable.
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Safety or decocker on the pistol? If decocker, it's kind of defeating the whole purpose of having it if you're manually decocking it, as you're overriding the firing pin block by pulling the trigger. Otherwise, the only real advantage to the half cock notch is a shorter DA pull, and that varies with the gun, I have some that "half-cock" really is about half, others that are more than 3/4 down. And then there's my Sig, with a rebounding hammer ::). Personally, for a newb, I'd strongly suggest a decocker and use it as designed, FAR less chance of an AD/ND. Later, and be safe.
Dave
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Good advise listen to Dave
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Safety (of course). Sorry to bring this up! :'(
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Safety (of course). Sorry to bring this up! :'(
No reason to be sorry, it's not an unreasonable question. Since yours has a safety, it really comes down to personal preference and technique, as well as the design of your particular pistol. Just always keep in mind that as long as the trigger is pulled enough to drop the hammer, the firing pin block is disabled. Or to put it in a slightly more colorful way, if your booger hook is on the bang switch, the gun can/will go BANG ;)!
Since most of my guns have decockers, and the others are only used at the range, I haven't worked on manually decocking a pistol with safety, but I know there's a couple of good techniques that involve having your thumb between the hammer and firing pin, pulling the trigger to release the hammer, then get you finger off the trigger and roll the thumb out of the way. That SHOULD drop the hammer to half cock, which is where I'd leave it. Regardless of the technique, I'd say practice, practice, practice it until you're SURE you're in no danger of an AD/ND, then practice it that much more again. Needless to say, don't practice with live rounds in the gun. Later.
Dave
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I am not sure where to post this question. I apologize in advance for such a dumb one, but try to remember I am a complete newbie!!
OK.. here goes..................
Does it really make any difference to carry with the hammer at half cock or fully down on a live round? :-[
I would think the hammer block would make it safe either way! I would also think that finger pressure and time on
the trigger to fire would be about the same in either case.
Also, dropping the hammer from full cock to half cock would be a mite easier and safer.
So why would anyone carry with the hammer fully down on a live round?
(I think I am talking in circles here!!! ha ha
The entire purpose of a DA auto with an external hammer is the ability to carry the pistol with the hammer entirely down (full rest).
Any Type B CZ has at least two safeties. The firing pin block (FPB) prevents the firing pin from engaging/extending into the breech face without pulling the trigger. This system cannot "fail" from a safety standpoint. (If it "fails," you have a paperweight.)
Most pistols since WWI (1918) have an inertial firing pin safety. To my knowledge, every pistol ever made by CZ has one. Basically, there is an integral spring around the firing pin that provides enough resistance to the travel of the pin to prevent it from extending into the breech from anything less than a full strike from the hammer. The inertial firing pin spring is often known as a "drop" safety.
A Type B CZ with a decocker has: 1) a FPB; 2) an inertial firing pin spring; and 3) a decocking lever that goes to the half-cock position when engaged.
I couldn't tell you which hammer position is "better," because I won't own a CZ with a decocking lever, despite having two for a trial. I prefer the manual safety, SA/DA version.
EDIT: I think the decocker is a scam, but the DA pull is supposedly lighter from half-cock.
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This is really some great information that even I can understand!!!
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Why so much hate for the decocker, Radom? And how is it a scam? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious as to your reasoning behind your obviously strong opinion. Personally, I prefer decockers, especially as I carry appendix, just feels safer than cocked and locked. And yes, I'm quite willing to admit that that's MY impression, and not necessarily reality. Later.
Dave
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There is nothing wrong with a decocker at all. It is just a personal preference. In my opinion I would not own a safety version. The guns I own except the 1911 versions are all decocker or no safety at all. I prefer my guns that way. Just me though as long as you are comfortable with what you have and familiar with it carry what you know!!!!
RCG
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Basically, the Type B CZ 75 pistols have one system or the other. They have a decocker OR a manual safety, as opposed to a Beretta 92 or most Walther clones (integrated safety/decocker).
The decocking 75 series pistols are all Type Bs: they have a firing pin block (FPB) and an inertial firing pin system (IFPS). When you engage the decocking lever, the hammer drops to the half-cock notch. When you pull the trigger on these models in DA mode, the hammer fully retracts to maximum travel, then drops. (In other words, the half-cock position is not an advantage.) If you chamber a round from the magazine, the hammer is fully cocked, but you have no safety in Condition 1, other than the FPB and IFPS. (Basically, don't touch the trigger.) You cannot treat a decocking model as a traditional SA pistol.
The manual safety 75 series pistols can be Type A or Type B. Type As have the IFPS; Type Bs have the IFPS and the FPB. When you chamber a round from the magazine, the hammer is fully cocked. You now have three options. 1) Manually decock to full rest (DA); 2) Manually decock to the half-cock notch (effectively same DA, since the hammer fully retracts to max. travel and then drops); or 3) engage the manual safety and have a true SA pistol in Condition 1.
In my mind, the decocking models are a "scam." They don't give you an SA/DA pistol, the hallmark of the CZ 75 design. The "true" CZ 75 is an SA pistol that can be used in DA/SA mode, if you choose to do so. The decocking models are poor DA/SA models, in that they don't have an integrated decocker/safety, nor do they decock to full rest.
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Hiya and thanks for your, how to carry thread, great advice and heated conversations. Some trial and error and you shall find a carry that works perfect for you,and prolly make adjustments to equipment and situations. For my two cents to add, my first cz was my range and primary carry. A omega PO-2, in 2011, it came from factory with ambi decocker,,and the type that ya pushed down to decock. Also included was ambi manual safety,leaving it to owner the choice. In training , preferred the pull and shoot vs pull disengage manual safety and pull. A few years later cz custom offered a trigger work,reset package,and Stu corrected the factories trigger shortcomings of the omegas. Did own a tactical PO-1 but didn't like its decocker as it was small and needed to be pushed up to work, unnatural motion I thought. All my range guns are manuel safety, LS,TS,Checkmate and every so often feel like a duffous when lined up for a shot and pull,finding the safety still on. Using a decocker on your carry,prevents that maybe becoming your last oops. Be well.
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Using a decocker on your carry prevents that maybe becoming your last oops.
Well put, adrian; a safety must be remembered to be switched off, and the high stress of a real world defensive incident works to make "remembering" less than one's most immediate priority, no matter how diligently one has trained. Decocker "safety" (the non-hair trigger of half-travel DA for 1st shot) solves the problem nicely, serving as an additional safeguard to the cardinal rule of keeping one's trigger finger in register until actually in process of firing (having verified clear background, etc.).
People believe what they want to believe, of course, and many believe a must-be-switched-off safety to be the way to go. I personally wouldn't want to add that potential failure mode to my under-duress list of musts.
Those who desire a SA first pull can cock the hammer to that mode when appropriate, as is the case with drawing from the PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI holster.
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95318.msg732479#msg732479
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I don't agree with the scam term, this was just CZ's approach to a decocker. If it works for you, use it. If not, find another firearm that works for you.
It is true, in my opinion, SA/DA with safety give you more options but I do like the safer decocking process using the decocker lever. Also, I don't trust myself remembering to take the safety off in a stressful situation and I would not carry SA without safety on with a 3 lbs trigger. Hence, I choose to carry a decocker version with one in the pipe. Practice your you initial DA pull and that should be it.
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I hope you guys dont mind me asking a question as a non carrier from abroad.
When you come home, do you unload your carry guns or put them away holstered and ready to take out the next day??
Can I compare carrying a gun with carrying your drivers license? You have it in your wallet when you go out and only take it out when needed? (I mean at the range or to clean or function check it)
Thanks!
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Hiya handb57,ok to ask where abroad you are writing from? Interesting question you asked,and I'm sure the replies will be as well. Many gun owners date or even are married to non gunowners that could shape behavior. Be well.
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I'm from The Netherlands. We only get a gun licence for target shooting or hunting, all under very strict rules.
So no concealed carry or home protection. Guns must be in a vault And the ammo in a separate vault.
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I carry my P-07 uncocked in DA mode...Now my Springfield XDe I carry in the half cocked position because in DA it has a long trigger position and a strange position for the curved type of trigger design.
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I hope you guys dont mind me asking a question as a non carrier from abroad.
When you come home, do you unload your carry guns or put them away holstered and ready to take out the next day??
Can I compare carrying a gun with carrying your drivers license? You have it in your wallet when you go out and only take it out when needed? (I mean at the range or to clean or function check it)
Thanks!
I live in South East Texas, for most of the year it's warm enough that I will be sweating during outdoor activity. When I get home, I normally unload and wipe down my carry gun. If I'm going back out I reload and place next to the holster I plan to wear. I usually switch between a Crossbreed Freedom carry and a SoCo Kydex LTx. My most often carried gun is Ruger LCR in 38 Special. If my grand kids or younger niece and nephew are visiting the gun goes in the safe or back on my person.
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Hiya again Handsb57, well which cz guns are approved for ownership there? And have you ever watched the process when cops come to inspect if guns and ammo are separate? And since I hope ya know the criminals have access to guns as well,so what story line does the paper report when there is a armed home invasion? Do people lean towards trained attack dogs, take ninja knife defense courses,booby trap the house when retiring? Help some of us americans understand what its like being a gun owner who isn't allowed to defend his family or self. And be objective,since the NSA has been reading the worlds communications for prolly 20 years now, don't want them ta drop a dime with the locals on you. Thanks for any light you can shine on the topic.Be well.
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I hope you guys dont mind me asking a question as a non carrier from abroad.
When you come home, do you unload your carry guns or put them away holstered and ready to take out the next day??
Can I compare carrying a gun with carrying your drivers license? You have it in your wallet when you go out and only take it out when needed? (I mean at the range or to clean or function check it)
Thanks!
Pistols/rifles/shotguns used for home defense inside the home or carry pistols that are taken out of the home remain loaded with full mags and one in the chamber at all times. No children in the house so do not always lock up but I do have safes upstairs and down.
I have a small safe in the vehicle if I need to secure my carry pistol before going into government buildings.
It?s really not a good idea to unload semi-auto pistols and mags every night and reload every morning. Multiple chambering of a round causes bullet set-back and increased pressures. Cycling the springs in a mag daily will accelerate wear.
Other range guns and mags are unloaded.
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Hi Adian,
Although they happen, armed home invasions are very rare.
We can buy all (most) CZ products, long guns must have a minimum length. No full auto. No magazine restrictions.
BUT: before you can own one you have to be member of a shooting club, shoot at least 18 times a year, proof you are qualified to handle a gun safely.
After 1 1/2 year you can buy 1 (one) 22lr revolver, pistol or single shot rifle. (after another year you can own upto a 9 mm pistol, after 3 years semi auto rifle)
Before buying one you go through an extensive background check buy the police. No convictions, house mates (wife or family) no convictions.
After you cleared that you get a visit from the police to check you have the proper separate guns and ammo safe.
Then you get your license and can pick up your gun. After picking it up you go to the poiice again to show the gun and they make sure the gun on your license is the gun you own.
After about 1 year you CAN get a random check by police to check if everything is stored properly.
I had this once until now and there is nothing scary about it. They show up unannounced and in uniform. I asked for there ID and they said "very good you are asking for it" They checked my guns and that I had no more the 10.000 round in my safe (that's another restriction, 10.000 is the max, all calibers combined)
Reloading is allowed. You get an extra permit for it but that is just a formality.
Maximum allowed number of guns is 5 (but you can have multiple barrels in multiple calibers as long as you can never put together more than 5 guns at a time)
It looks strict but you should remember that I own guns for the shooting sport and not for self defense.
To me a gun is like tennis racket. It is a tool that allows me to enjoy the sport I love.
Try to see it like this; If you own and fly a warbird it is not to shoot down planes (although the aircraft was originally was designed to do so) it is because you love flying.
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Hiya and comprehensive reply,but not off the hook yet. So begs the question, you are home you hear glass breaking from a window,or the door being kicked in, what are your first several responses and actions to keep you and family safe?? It would be illegal to retrieve a gun and ammo right? Is OC spray,Mace legal there? Tasers? And say you wanted to shoot .22, seeing that a 75 SA was my favorite frame to run the Kadet kit on. Does it count as a separate gun to have on the max of 5? Now if the police have to abide by the same rules as the citizens,god forbid, do they separate and lock up ammo and guns every night as well? I just find the cultural differences interesting, while acknowledging your gun laws seem to reflect on a lower murder rate,if stats are reported anywhere near actual. Thx and be well.
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Hi Adian,
Although they happen, armed home invasions are very rare.
We can buy all (most) CZ products, long guns must have a minimum length. No full auto. No magazine restrictions.
BUT: before you can own one you have to be member of a shooting club, shoot at least 18 times a year, proof you are qualified to handle a gun safely.
After 1 1/2 year you can buy 1 (one) 22lr revolver, pistol or single shot rifle. (after another year you can own upto a 9 mm pistol, after 3 years semi auto rifle)
Before buying one you go through an extensive background check buy the police. No convictions, house mates (wife or family) no convictions.
After you cleared that you get a visit from the police to check you have the proper separate guns and ammo safe.
Then you get your license and can pick up your gun. After picking it up you go to the poiice again to show the gun and they make sure the gun on your license is the gun you own.
After about 1 year you CAN get a random check by police to check if everything is stored properly.
I had this once until now and there is nothing scary about it. They show up unannounced and in uniform. I asked for there ID and they said "very good you are asking for it" They checked my guns and that I had no more the 10.000 round in my safe (that's another restriction, 10.000 is the max, all calibers combined)
Reloading is allowed. You get an extra permit for it but that is just a formality.
Maximum allowed number of guns is 5 (but you can have multiple barrels in multiple calibers as long as you can never put together more than 5 guns at a time)
It looks strict but you should remember that I own guns for the shooting sport and not for self defense.
To me a gun is like tennis racket. It is a tool that allows me to enjoy the sport I love.
Try to see it like this; If you own and fly a warbird it is not to shoot down planes (although the aircraft was originally was designed to do so) it is because you love flying.
Your laws are even more strict than here in Australia . I dont know how you defend your home but here if you hurt / harm home invaders you will be charged by the police, yes thats right it is basically illegal to defend you home.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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You can have a 75 and a Kadet kit, that counts as 1 pistol.
No spray or tasers (they are illegal
Although we have robberies, street crime, burgaliers and murders, the Netherlands is a pretty safe place to live with a (relatively) low crime rate.
We dont have the "right" to own guns. Under strict rules you can get permission to own them. If you dont follow those rules you lose that permission.
1 life round that you forgot to safely store could be enough reason to revoke your permission.
It's not illegal to defend your home. But if an unarmed burglar enters your home and I hit him on the head with a baseball bat, it me who is having the problem.
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Hiya, can't understand your law of being illegal to defend your home. Do the citizens of your country have no input in effecting the laws? and same for hands57,its not a proper law. Maybe as ironic as the post How to carry? When you basic answer is its against the law to carry here, unless to and from a hunting trip or shooting club. If you are aware of the 2015 mall shootings in your country, how did a man with significant mental illness pass the background check? And if family members wish to enjoy the sport with you are they permitted as guests,with your supervision? And here an annual cost of range membership is apx 150USD, whats your annual fees? Thanks and Be well.
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Adrian,
My initial question was to understand the difference between a decocker and safety model.
Not from a technical standpoint but from the daily user view.
I wanted to know If you unload your gun when at home or put it holstered in a safe place to take with you the next day.
I would think that if you load your gun daily and handle it in house you might choose a decocker for safety reasons.
So before answering your question I have to apologize to the topic starter for hijacking his topic.
At my gun club I pay euros 180 per year. (approve 200 USD)
You renew your permit every year in person at a special branch of the police department.
As it is a club it is run by volunteers
As a member you are expected to do some chores. Some do maintenance of the building, shooting lanes or guns.
Others are behind a desk to hand out club guns and sell ammo to member who don't own guns themselves.
I pay USD 10.50 for a box of 50 9 MM CCI SV is around USD 4,50 a box. (if I buy it in bulk)
I go to the range about 50 times a year and shoot 50 round a per session.
I can bring family or friends to shoot under my supervision.
The mall shooting was a mistake by the authorities. That guy should have never been allowed to own guns.
He had a medical history and was earlier denied a permit because an issue with an air gun (they are legal, but only if you use them on your own property and don't carry them around) This case against him was dropped
After this incident the rules for gun ownership were stricter again.
I don't want go into your home defense question because that might touch political, cultural or historical differences and I feel that is not appropriate on this forum.
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Hi Adian,
Although they happen, armed home invasions are very rare.
We can buy all (most) CZ products, long guns must have a minimum length. No full auto. No magazine restrictions.
BUT: before you can own one you have to be member of a shooting club, shoot at least 18 times a year, proof you are qualified to handle a gun safely.
After 1 1/2 year you can buy 1 (one) 22lr revolver, pistol or single shot rifle. (after another year you can own upto a 9 mm pistol, after 3 years semi auto rifle)
Before buying one you go through an extensive background check buy the police. No convictions, house mates (wife or family) no convictions.
After you cleared that you get a visit from the police to check you have the proper separate guns and ammo safe.
Then you get your license and can pick up your gun. After picking it up you go to the poiice again to show the gun and they make sure the gun on your license is the gun you own.
After about 1 year you CAN get a random check by police to check if everything is stored properly.
I had this once until now and there is nothing scary about it. They show up unannounced and in uniform. I asked for there ID and they said "very good you are asking for it" They checked my guns and that I had no more the 10.000 round in my safe (that's another restriction, 10.000 is the max, all calibers combined)
Reloading is allowed. You get an extra permit for it but that is just a formality.
Maximum allowed number of guns is 5 (but you can have multiple barrels in multiple calibers as long as you can never put together more than 5 guns at a time)
It looks strict but you should remember that I own guns for the shooting sport and not for self defense.
To me a gun is like tennis racket. It is a tool that allows me to enjoy the sport I love.
Try to see it like this; If you own and fly a warbird it is not to shoot down planes (although the aircraft was originally was designed to do so) it is because you love flying.
Your laws are even more strict than here in Australia . I dont know how you defend your home but here if you hurt / harm home invaders you will be charged by the police, yes thats right it is basically illegal to defend you home.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
That?s not entirely correct. If the police believe that the force you used was ?reasonable? and ?necessary? then they may not charge you.
Given our storage laws though it would look a bit suss if you had time to shoot an intruder though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk