The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ BREN => Topic started by: TenSix on April 25, 2019, 02:36:43 AM
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I recently got bit by the CZ bug so naturally I?m looking at buying a Bren pistol/carbine. After much research I see that most everyone is looking forward to the Bren 2, and the general consensus is that the Bren 2 is better than the 805. That?s where I?m a little confused...
My priorities for a rifle are accuracy, reliability, and durability. It seems that the 805 surpasses the Bren 2 in at least two of those categories. The 805 has a better trigger which I assume would aid in accuracy. It is more over-built which would aid in durability. And the 805 has been in service with multiple military forces, so reliability isn?t a concern either.
I understand that the light weight and improved ergonomics of the Bren 2 are crucial for soldiers who have to haul it everywhere they go. But for a civilian shooter like myself, wouldn?t an 805 be a better value?
Thanks for the feedback. Please let me know If I?m misunderstanding anything.
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The 805 is a VERY well built rifle, indeed. For 99% of civilian uses, it is just fine, indeed. The changes were from a military standpoint, for ease of use in a battlefield environment,being lighter and of course, the bolt release..in two places. I don't carry my BREN many places other than the range, and it usually rides in a case, so the weight doesn't become an issue, not being a grunt in the field. I might be a wee bit tired if I take her hunting with me, but that's why I also have the excellent CZ military 3 point sling, too.
I don't know about durability, because the 805 really hasn't had any noted long term issues I am aware of, while the BREN 2 is no new there hasn't been time for any issues to crop up. I would have to assume made with CZ toughness and quality that both rifles will keep on working long after I am done. ;)
The only thing that could negatively impact the BREN 805 is the lack of spare parts as the firearm is discontinued, but since they are still in service, in the Czech Army as second line, if nothing else, so spare parts will most likely be available for some time.
The last cool thing is - they are orphans. They were only imported into the US for about 2 years. While not really RARE, they are far more limited numbers than many other "service" grade rifles. I had a buddy of mine watch me shoot my BREN 805 a month or so ago, and when I mentioned that being an FDE BREN 805 it's a relatively uncommon rifle, he wanted to know why I was shooting my collectors item! Is aid, "Is rifle. Is to be shot."
Long story short, go for it, grab one - you won't be disappointed ;)
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The Bren 2 has been in military service for several years now. So I don't really have any concerns about durability.
The ergonomic improvements are not insignificant. The non-reciprocating charging handle alone is a big deal to me.
The 805 was actually overbuilt, sort of by accident. You can read about the history of that aspect elsewhere. Which is one reason it is so heavy.
Marines were making headshots with rack M16A4s with ACOGs at several hundred yards in Iraq using crap triggers. I think I could deal with the Bren 2 trigger.
In the end, I think you need to look at the balance of what changed and what improved. Assuming durability is a wash in practical terms between the two (both are military tough), the only thing that the 805 has left over the Bren 2 is the trigger. I think the 2 pretty much beats out the 805 in every other way.
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The two models are surprisingly different. In addition to the characteristics previously mentioned, I would also recommend thinking about how you want to use it. Consider the comparison in the graphic below.
The Bren 2 upper is substantially shorter. It is lighter and more nimble but the Bren 805 is more stable and sturdy. If you are going to use the weapon for shooting courses or dynamic tactical situations like CQB then maybe the Bren 2 is better for mobility. On the other hand, if you are just doing range shooting and hunting then you may prefer the solid feel of the Bren 805.
So which is more fun to drive, an autobahn cruiser or a sports car?
(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a443/hansellhd/assault-rifles_zpsyvqjwmpy.jpg)
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The two models are surprisingly different. In addition to the characteristics previously mentioned, I would also recommend thinking about how you want to use it. Consider the comparison in the graphic below.
The Bren 2 upper is substantially shorter. It is lighter and more nimble but the Bren 805 is more stable and sturdy. If you are going to use the weapon for shooting courses or dynamic tactical situations like CQB then maybe the Bren 2 is better for mobility. On the other hand, if you are just doing range shooting and hunting then you may prefer the solid feel of the Bren 805.
So which is more fun to drive, an autobahn cruiser or a sports car?
(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a443/hansellhd/assault-rifles_zpsyvqjwmpy.jpg)
I have a Bren 2 and it has the best stock trigger of any 5.56mm mag fed rifle I?ve ever shot. And you are saying the 805 trigger is even better? Wow, that must be an awesome trigger. I need to check one out. Prices are good on the 805.
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A couple of video comparisons from Mischaco that have been shared before. Re-posting in case it is useful.
https://youtu.be/vWImMyKLS7U
https://youtu.be/j7r3RF2H0dY
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The Bren 805 is showing to have a chrome lined barrel. Anyone know if the Bren 2 also has a chrome lined barrel?
Not a lot of info on the Bren 2 barrel
Thanks
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I understand that the light weight and improved ergonomics of the Bren 2 are crucial for soldiers who have to haul it everywhere they go. But for a civilian shooter like myself, wouldn?t an 805 be a better value?
Thanks for the feedback. Please let me know If I?m misunderstanding anything.
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Great question that I think you also answered. If you like shooting but your life isn?t depending on this weapon outside of some unforeseen apocalypse, you probably do not need the lightest, latest greatest. That being said, I carry my 805 weekly at work on a Task Force. The added weight is negligible to me. I jump out of a vehicle and pull perimeter or make entry and clear a structure. I?ve never once felt it was too heavy. And the plus side of a heavy weapon is recoil. I literally had a friend video me shooting as fast and as accurately as I could in super slo mo, and the barrel literally doesn?t move shot to shot. And Not one malfunction either. Ever.
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Great question that I think you also answered. If you like shooting but your life isn?t depending on this weapon outside of some unforeseen apocalypse, you probably do not need the lightest, latest greatest. That being said, I carry my 805 weekly at work on a Task Force. The added weight is negligible to me. I jump out of a vehicle and pull perimeter or make entry and clear a structure. I?ve never once felt it was too heavy. And the plus side of a heavy weapon is recoil. I literally had a friend video me shooting as fast and as accurately as I could in super slo mo, and the barrel literally doesn?t move shot to shot. And Not one malfunction either. Ever.
I also carry a hefty piston AR with a bunch of crap attached to it on duty. And like you, I use it as a perimeter gun so I?m usually prone or it?s rested on a tree, vehicle, etc. For building searches, I go to my pistol. So I don?t think I?ll mind the extra weight of the 805. Plus i think it?s kinda cool to have a gun that?s been discontinued and somewhat ?collectible.?
With that said it seems that I?ll be paying less for the Bren 2 when it?s available due to the increasing prices for the 805.
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I have a Bren 2 and it has the best stock trigger of any 5.56mm mag fed rifle I?ve ever shot. And you are saying the 805 trigger is even better? Wow, that must be an awesome trigger. I need to check one out. Prices are good on the 805.
Same thoughts here.
The weight is up to you. I come from a competition background where my competition buddies and I spent a lot of time drilling and testing out this and that. I personally like lighter weight, specifically on the front end to compensate for a suppressor there. If you ever spend a lot of time with a suppressor on an AK-74 type rifle, you'll know what I mean. The center of balance on that config was in the middle of the front handguard. After an hour or two spent shooting standing or kneeling unsupported with a setup like that, you notice fatigue is hurting your performance compared to something with less weight up front.
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Comparing the 16" Bren carbine to 11" Bren pistol, weight is much more balance IMO with the pistol. I have mine with an SB brace and it is one sweet package. Trigger is outstanding for a factory/rack grade gun. Decent accuracy at 1.5 moa with 4x scope and my 55 gr hand loads using Sierra blitzking bullets.
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I like my Bren 2s, 11” Pistol a lot. 1/300 and all that but my trigger is not safe - I have years of competition under my belt - it is not that it is too light - it is that it is UNPREDICTABLE!
Stock 805 triggers - in my experience of 1 Bren 2s, are better. Most everyone’s results are at odds to mine!
I will buy a good aftermarket trigger towards the idea of an SBR.
In the meantime the B&T APC 223 is available and it has my attention- lots of parts options.
I am new to CZ and I am SOOOOOO happy that that they’ve given us the P10 series, 805 series and Bren 2(et al) - but there is MAXIMUM frustration on my part about the latest rollout: any information is better than the premature thrill they gave us.
Communication is key, the folks in Kansas City have not heard that. If there are problems, let us know: no news, bad news or I don’t know.
Kind of a low level rant - but 805 = good. 2s = good and only GOD ALMIGHTY ABOVE knows about 2 MS and if and when it maybe, probably or will ever come to market.
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OP,
If I were you, I would get the Bren 805 1 while you can.
Better trigger, a lot less recoil = a better shooter.
Its amazing how you stay on target effortleslay with the ps1
Imo, the only area the Bren 2 wins is in weight.
But, if your not in the armed services.......?
Just my 2 pennies
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The B2 isn’t better, it’s just lighter (more recoil) and more modular and comes in x39 as an option.
The B1 has a much better trigger group though.
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The B2 isn’t better, it’s just lighter (more recoil) and more modular and comes in x39 as an option.
The B1 has a much better trigger group though.
That's an excellent pot imo.
Will they making the Bren 2 in .308?
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.....Will they making the Bren 2 in .308?
Yes, already do but probably not available here for quite some time. IIRC I seem to have read that CZ is not planning on importing those for years, possibly. ( for lowly non LE/Mil consumption)
https://le.cz-usa.com/the-new-bren-2-rifle-chambered-in-308/
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The B2 isn’t better, it’s just lighter (more recoil) and more modular and comes in x39 as an option.
The B1 has a much better trigger group though.
Lighter doesn't mean more recoil unless all other factors remain the same.
A 5-6 pound tuned AR with internal piston has much less recoil than an 8+ pound loaded HK416.
I have not shot a Bren 2 and 805 back to back, but with the Bren 2 having a lighter reciprocating mass vs the 805 and a better tuned gas system, I wouldn't be surprised if the difference was minimal to nonexistent, or even favorable to the Bren 2.
Legit question. Had anybody in this thread shot them back to back with the same ammo and barrel length?
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The B2 isn’t better, it’s just lighter (more recoil) and more modular and comes in x39 as an option.
The B1 has a much better trigger group though.
Lighter doesn't mean more recoil unless all other factors remain the same.
A 5-6 pound tuned AR with internal piston has much less recoil than an 8+ pound loaded HK416.
I have not shot a Bren 2 and 805 back to back, but with the Bren 2 having a lighter reciprocating mass vs the 805 and a better tuned gas system, I wouldn't be surprised if the difference was minimal to nonexistent, or even favorable to the Bren 2.
Legit question. Had anybody in this thread shot them back to back with the same ammo and barrel length?
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The Bren2 has quite a bit more recoil than the 1.
I saw it in Mishas video.
Not only do they say it, it's also obvious watching it.
My little brother has a soft shooting AR, but it's nothing compared to the Bren 1. I've never shot any 223 that has as little recoil than the Bren 1
Honestly your really dreaming if you think the Bren 2 will have less recoil than the Bren 1 much less be the same
And, that's nothing against the Bren 2
It just is what it is. The Bren 1 is incredible for soft recoil
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This is a 5.56/223, why are we talking about recoil? There is none and if there is to much for you, then maybe stick with a 22 long rifle or BB gun :D
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This is a 5.56/223, why are we talking about recoil? There is none and if there is to much for you, then maybe stick with a 22 long rifle or BB gun :D
Haha :)
Well, faster is faster. Doesn't matter if it's a BB gun or howitzer.
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805 or Bren 2?
Easy answer: a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. You
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My Bren 2MS 8” 5.56 pistol is finally being shipped. Was very shocked when I saw the email today from CZ to say the least.
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My experience w/ ARs is that 90%+ of 5.56 recoil can be mitigated via muzzle devices and recoil systems/buffers. On a Bren the first applies in full, but for the second you might need to modify your gas settings, like for a suppressor: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95143.0
W/ the Brens, I think the 805 makes a better rifle, while the 806 makes a better carbine.
The main loss from a military perspective that I believe to be significant is that the 806 lost the 2 shot burst that was present on the 805...
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Bren2 has quite a bit more recoil than the 1.
I saw it in Mishas video.
Not only do they say it, it's also obvious watching it.
I don't normally disagree with Misha on much, but they way underestimate the effect of the brake vs flash hider. Brakes on 5.56s are incredibly effective, almost half the mass that goes out the business end is gas. It goes double for short barrels because of the pressure available to work the brake.
I don't doubt losing a pound will make the gun snappier, but having several ARs that are over a pound apart, in and of itself, it isn't a huge difference between them just from being lighter or heavier.
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Bren2 has quite a bit more recoil than the 1.
I saw it in Mishas video.
Not only do they say it, it's also obvious watching it.
I don't normally disagree with Misha on much, but they way underestimate the effect of the brake vs flash hider. Brakes on 5.56s are incredibly effective, almost half the mass that goes out the business end is gas. It goes double for short barrels because of the pressure available to work the brake.
I don't doubt losing a pound will make the gun snappier, but having several ARs that are over a pound apart, in and of itself, it isn't a huge difference between them just from being lighter or heavier.
In that vid, there's a flash hider on the 805 as well. But the Bren 2 version used is the 8", which has something less than an inch of barrel past the gas port. While dwell time is arguably less important for piston guns than DI ones, it nevertheless still matters. They're shooting brass cased in video, so if the gas system is designed to work with both weak (e.g., russian steel) and full pressure loads (e.g., nato-spec) you'd have a case where the gun will be overgassed w/ milspec loads and accordingly more "snappy."
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[In that vid, there's a flash hider on the 805 as well.
On the carbine, yes. The pistol 805 they shot had the brake. The carbine is going to recoil less because it's much, much heavier and balance is totally different to boot. You're probably right about those other factors having a small role in the perception of the Bren 2S being snappier.
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805 or Bren 2?
Easy answer: a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. You
I'm gonna go with this, and continue to fondle my SP-1 excessively. ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/4FY7dSX/100-5403-crop.jpg)
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[In that vid, there's a flash hider on the 805 as well.
On the carbine, yes. The pistol 805 they shot had the brake. The carbine is going to recoil less because it's much, much heavier and balance is totally different to boot. You're probably right about those other factors having a small role in the perception of the Bren 2S being snappier.
Ah, misunderstood which one you were referencing. Yes 805 pistol in the live action but not table top...
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Just thought I'd refresh this thread and thank all the prior participants. Very relevant to my current quandary.
Any feedback from owners or shooter of both would be great. :)
Anyone with buyers remorse of either?
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There are a lot of people in this thread that seem loyal to their 805's. If they like them then good for them, i hope they enjoy them.
Having said that. The Bren 2 is a "better" rifle in the sense that it brings a lot of very desirable features to the market.
1. Very light weight.
2. Better controls than the 805.
3. Non reciprocating charging handle.
4. Lighter reciprocating mass resulting in less recoil. The 805 kicked like a mule for a 5.56 gun even with a brake.
5. Modular front end
6. More ergonomic stock options. Adjustable LOP to fit a variety of shooters.
IF you want a shooter, you want the Bren 2. If you're a collector, you want the 805 and then a bren 2 later on to actually go shoot. :P
The 805 is a good rifle but the bren 2 is a product improvement. Does everyone need an Iphone 11? Absolutely not, people with Iphone 10's are doing just fine, same as people running around with Iphone 8's. Is the Iphone 11 the best iteration of the Iphone from a performance standard? Yes, it is.
Dont fight progress people. The Bren 2 is a step forward in EVERY way.
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The B2 isn’t better, it’s just lighter (more recoil) and more modular and comes in x39 as an option.
The B1 has a much better trigger group though.
Keep forgetting about that perk. Has anyone seen/done the 7.62 switchover yet (in this country)?
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IF you want a shooter, you want the Bren 2. If you're a collector, you want the 805 and then a bren 2 later on to actually go shoot. :P
The 805 is a good rifle but the bren 2 is a product improvement. Does everyone need an Iphone 11? Absolutely not, people with Iphone 10's are doing just fine, same as people running around with Iphone 8's. Is the Iphone 11 the best iteration of the Iphone from a performance standard? Yes, it is.
Thanks again for the input Magsz
Yup, getting one of each actually did cross my mind! 8)
And My iFern 6 is working just fine still! ::)
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Newer is not better necessarily ::). In m eyes this has been decided by the rifles themselves! The B2 (X39 & 5.56 have problems, the B1 seems to be reliable. I haven't heard of many failures when it comes to the B1 (actually none). Mine has been unfailing (B1 5.56 11")
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On one trip to my range with my CZ 805 Bren S1 carbine, I ran into a US military veteran who was there with his FN Scar (I didn't get the number).
We traded guns to compare each in shooting.
The vet preferred my Bren over his Scar.
I agreed with him.
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I have an805 pistol. am looking at swapping if for a Bren 2, because I had a stroke in October, and my left arm is not fully functional yet. the lighter Bren 2 seems a more practical swap. If anyone has some insight on this idea, shout out!
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I have an805 pistol. am looking at swapping if for a Bren 2, because I had a stroke in October, and my left arm is not fully functional yet. the lighter Bren 2 seems a more practical swap. If anyone has some insight on this idea, shout out!
Sorry to hear about your health scare. You can shave another lb+ in weight off from Bren 2 by going w/ a lightweight AR15 pistol build...
I'd suggest that route and keeping your 805.
Without knowing the extent of function on your LH size you might even want to look at weapons designed for one hand only use with braces, such as a handgun chassis with a brace.
For subcompacts, anything with a pistol grip mag insertion will reduce overall length (vs forward magwells w/ same overall barrel length) and should also increase controlability due to leverage, fulcrum, etc. physics.
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I have an805 pistol. am looking at swapping if for a Bren 2, because I had a stroke in October, and my left arm is not fully functional yet. the lighter Bren 2 seems a more practical swap. If anyone has some insight on this idea, shout out!
Sorry to hear about your health scare. You can shave another lb+ in weight off from Bren 2 by going w/ a lightweight AR15 pistol build...
I'd suggest that route and keeping your 805.
Without knowing the extent of function on your LH size you might even want to look at weapons designed for one hand only use with braces, such as a handgun chassis with a brace.
For subcompacts, anything with a pistol grip mag insertion will reduce overall length (vs forward magwells w/ same overall barrel length) and should also increase controlability due to leverage, fulcrum, etc. physics.
Beretta cx4 is outstanding.
But I'd even suggest a bullpup like the AUG or X95.
I've shot both, owned an Aug clone. Really easy to do one handed work.
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Not a big fan of either.
The Bren 2 is certainly an improvement but has its own drawbacks. Their integrated "BAD" button presents a safety issue and isn't very ergonomic. Their selector gets in the way of your shooting finger when you're indexing it out of the trigger guard. There's barely any availability of spare internal small parts.
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On one trip to my range with my CZ 805 Bren S1 carbine, I ran into a US military veteran who was there with his FN Scar (I didn't get the number).
We traded guns to compare each in shooting.
The vet preferred my Bren over his Scar.
I agreed with him.
Me too. The most notable difference is in the recoil impulse. My SCAR 16 has a strange delay in returning to battery compared to my BREN S1, probably because of the SCAR's massive reciprocating weight.
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These Brens whether 1st or 2nd Gen are also made so very much nicer than a SCAR. From what I've read, the Bren is just hands down better all-round.
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Zombie thread returns! Just kidding - having had both, I prefer my BREN 2 MS. The BREN 805 was a wonderful shooter but was heavier than I wanted. I really like the changes in the BREN 2. If you are indexing your finger outside the trigger guard - put it straight forward, as there is an indent in the frame seemingly just for that purpose. I would like more spare parts availability, but what is breaking? I haven't had anything fail yet, but I don't abuse it, nor do I shoot it exclusively, plus the ammo shortage cut my range time down, unfortunately.
i SINCERELY WISH A MEDICAL CRISIS HADN'T COST ME MY bren 805, but I am very happy with my little BREN 2 which just keeps on ticking n matter what I feed it, right to point of aim.
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I have an805 pistol. am looking at swapping if for a Bren 2, because I had a stroke in October, and my left arm is not fully functional yet. the lighter Bren 2 seems a more practical swap. If anyone has some insight on this idea, shout out!
Sorry to hear about your health scare. You can shave another lb+ in weight off from Bren 2 by going w/ a lightweight AR15 pistol build...
AR pistol reliability is spotty at best, as gassing it correctly becomes the issue - main reason I got the 805 over the AR pistol as I have 6 DI AR's that ar all 14.5 or longer & run great.
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11-12" ARs are generally fine or can be configured to such if buying from reputable vendors. BATF looks to be trying to ban them later this year though...
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11-12" ARs are generally fine or can be configured to such if buying from reputable vendors. BATF looks to be trying to ban them later this year though...
They are trying a backdoor ban by regulating the use of braces so strictly that they will become much less practical to use.
August is the expected roll out of the new rules.
I always said the roll out of the new e-file system was in perpetration for such a thing.
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Well, they really shouldn't. Especially after they had no problem with them to begin with.
It's absolutely ridiculous that any semi auto "short" barrel gun be restricted anyway.
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They are trying a backdoor ban by regulating the use of braces so strictly that they will become much less practical to use.
August is the expected roll out of the new rules.
I always said the roll out of the new e-file system was in perpetration for such a thing.
No, my understanding is it is not the braces per-say they're banning, but they're changing the definition of what constitutes a pistol per administrative fiat with various weight, length, etc, components that even result in things like the Desert Eagle classifying as an SBR. So when the firearm itself is defined as no longer a pistol under these new definitions, then the brace is irrelevant. Yes, it's a can of worms making a sizeable portion of the firearms community potential felons overnight.
Additionally, they are also trying to change the definition of a firearm itself after at least a few AR-related prosecutions have been dropped due to the AR lower receiver not technically being a firearm in the strictest definition of current law. I don't fully follow/understand what it is exactly that's happening/the BATF is wanting to do, but they may be trying to make both upper and lower receivers collectively a firearm, or maybe changing the upper to a receiver to be serialized for a new registry/accounting (on ruger 10/22s for instance, the upper is the receiver even though lower trigger group housing is effectively the same as an AR lower), etc.
Whole thing is going to be a mess. The only reason they pulled the pistol brace stuff in 2020 when they pushed was Trump Admin pushed back on them -- Biden is encouraging BATF to be bad actors.
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Trump?
That Clown was the one that ended bump stocks.
He's the one got all this going to begin with.
Talk about bad actors!
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Trump?
That Clown was the one that ended bump stocks.
He's the one got all this going to begin with.
Talk about bad actors!
Yes, bumpstocks was a bad call, but no, it wasn't a start -- it was an unnecessary concession that allowed the continuation of bad BATF behavior. The left wanted far more than that for an official narrative that still doesn't ring true...
His sons are legit gun nuts and the family had more sway than advisors with him, and the previous proposed rules were absolutely shutdown b/c the Trump Admin said no way.
Mods here don't like mixed topics, so we should prob take this to the 2A forum for further discussion...