The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on October 29, 2019, 05:42:39 PM
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I plan on reloading 38 special first, and then get into 9mm Luger loading after I get used to 38 special reloading.
One of the instructors at a local range I go to swears by Unique powder for most pistol loads, especially for revolver cartridges like 38 special. While load data exists for 9mm Luger Unique loads, I have heard a couple people recommend Titegroup or Bullseye powder for 9mm Luger loads. What powder did you folks start out with when you started reloading for these 2 cartridge types?
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Unique and Bullseye are both over 100 years old. They are "standards", but there are powders the same burn rate that are simply much easier to work with. Unique is OK in 38, but actually a tad too slow for 9mm. It also has coarse crystals that are known to "clump" inside the powder measure and not meter accurately. Bullseye does much better as a dual-use powder, but you can easily beat their handling and performance with more modern offerings.
TiteGroup is way too fast and hot for a novice reloader. The people who love it and use lots of "TG" are using professional grade powder measures and have their loading process down pat. In my book, anyone that recommends TG to a novice (who may have beginner grade equipment and NO process) is simply irresponsible. I'm not saying it's the 'Hillary Clinton' of powders, it has its place. Generally the people who use it though, use a LOT of it and reload maybe 10,000 rounds per year. In short, it's biggest asset is that it's very cheap. You can do better.
For a novice reloader, you want a powder that "meters" well, has a very wide load range (is "forgiving"), and one that doesn't melt your gun or make it so you need to clean it continuously.
Plinking / Target Practice
We generally recommend Winchester 231, which is also sold under the name Hodgdon HP-38. A wonderful powder that matches it, and maybe outdoes it in some respects, is a new (18 moths old) powder called Alliant Sport Pistol. These powders are excellent in either caliber, meter very well, leave your gun clean, and have a very wide load 'window' so you don't need to worry about being 0.1gr off with your measurements.
Power Loads
We do not recommend loading your own self defense loads, but if part of your practice is loading cheap rounds that mimic SD rounds, then your bullet needs to travel a little faster. For that you'll be very happy with Alliant BE-86, Winchester WSF, or Accurate No7 (in that order).
We have lots of data here, taken in CZ pistols using all these powders. Need more help, then just ask. Be SURE and read the Stickies at the top of this Forum.
Hope this helps. ;)
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Because I still have a a lot in stock, I use Unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old Unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.
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N320.
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Because i still have a crapload I use unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.
So it is true that unique is dirty?
When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.
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Because i still have a crapload I use unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.
So it is true that unique is dirty?
When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.
Some powders don't flow through the powder measure as well as they should. It is a combination of factors such as grain shape, tendency to clump, static, etc that will lead to an inconsistent powder drop.
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Almost 40 years ago I got the opportunity to use an RCBS Lil Dandy Pistol Powder Measure for my handgun ammo reloading. It uses interchangeable bushings, or rotors in the body to meter powder. Big chart with a list of bushings by number and "about" how much powder weight in grains for a long list of powders each bushing should meter into your case/scale pan.
I remember being completely happy with it. I used it for Unique, Bullseye, 2400, H110, W296, Blue Dot and maybe one or two more I don't remember right now. Those were the powders I used for .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum (heavy and light loads) and .45 acp.
I didn't have accuracy issues with my handguns. I had the opportunity to shoot a couple Colt NM pistols and they were fine. But they didn't outshoot my Colt Combat Commander, not out as far as 25 yds. anyway. My S&W 586 was only beaten by a beautiful S&W M14 a buddy owned (his with 148 grain HP wadcutters and Bullseye, mine with 125 or 158 grain jacketed hollow points and Blue Dot or one of the other powders I'm no longer sure of - exactly which one).
So, I bought another Lil Dandy a few years ago. Easy to set up (just read the chart and order the correct rotor) and use. BUT, it did not meter Unique or Bullseye as consistently as the one I used back in the early 80's. I have no idea why. I used different bushings for different powders for different calibers over a few months trying to find a use for it that made it worth using it over the RCBS Uniflow and there was no difference in consistency. The Lil Dandy sits on the shelf waiting for some future testing or a new powder (come to think of it, I've got Tite Group, AA#7 and BE 86 to try now.)
I wonder what changed. The powder? The metal used in the rotors? Some environmental (temperature/humidity in the reloading area) condition?
I check 1 out of every 10 cases I drop powder into to keep an eye out for changes in powder charge weight. I pour the charge from the case to the scale pan and weigh it. The Lil Dandy just doesn't do what it used to do all those years ago. Something's changed.
I'm not even claiming I shoot as good as I did 40 years ago. I'm a "wobbly" son of a gun now and it gets worse the longer I try to shoot. I'm not trying to blame poor groups on the powder charge inconsistency, that's me or the gun (the P07 lets me know which). I am saying that weighing 1 of 10 charges shows me what powders meter consistently and what powders don't. And, I'm weight checking to see if a change in charge weight has occurred for some reason, not so much to test powder consistency, but I see a difference in consistency as a result of the weight checks. Not a pistol powder but when I sit down and reload 400 rounds of .223 Rem. with H335 and weigh check 40 rounds and not a single one of them is off by 0.1 of a grain, that's consistent metering.
If AA#7, or BE86 will do that and shoot good groups I can load up my remaining Blue Dot (requires the use of the Hornady electronic powder measure/scale for consistent charge weights) and stop buying it.
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Sorry, got carried away and even let my coffee get cold.
OP. Do you want ease of reloading or accurate loads? Sometimes its not the same thing. Then again, sometimes some people are happy being able to hit the paper at 10 yds. while someone else wants all the holes in the X ring/circle.
Do you want plinking loads? Do you want self defense loads? Makes a difference.
You can buy some different brands/types of factory ammo and shoot it. Find out what is reliable and accurate for you in your handguns.
Take a look at the ammo manufacturer's website. Some of them list ballistic data for their ammo. Find some bullets/powders that should allow you to duplicate that velocity and then work up to those loads by starting your powder charge lower and working up in increments (increasing powder charges in small amounts - some people use 0.2 grain, some 0.3 grain, some 0.5 grain) while observing your pistol/brass for signs of too much powder. And finding where those loads start giving you reliable functioning and good groups. Some people recommend buying/using a chronograph to measure the bullet velocity so you are sure when you get there, or too fast. Too fast may mean you're using too much powder and your pressure is too high.
I'm about to start that process (soon I hope) with 124 grain jacketed bullets for a 9MM M&P. The single store bought ammo I've found that gives me good groups (not CZ pistol good, but better than anything else in that M&P) is the Winchester 124 grain FMJ NATO ammo. Winchester lists a muzzle velocity of about 1200 fps. I've bought some powders that should get me in that area and will be trying them to see if I can get that darn pistol to shoot good groups with my reloads. CZ's will spoil you if you like small groups. I struggle to resist the urge to find something that shoots as good as the CZs.
It may be hard to find a single/best powder for .38 special and 9MM. Due to the case volume and pressure differences between the two they may require powders of different burn rates and density (weight per volume of powder) to achieve what you'll end up looking for.
Good luck. Be safe. Ask questions. There a some very experienced reloaders on the forum and they are always willing to help folks understand things and learn things about reloading and shooting reloads.
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Eastman answered the metering. I don't think Unique is any dirtier than most powders but it was years ago when I used it for trap loads. I actually switched to red dot (don't quote me on RD as it was nearly 40 years ago) Several older powders have cleaned up their act as far as dirty are concerned from most of the different manufacturers.
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When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.
First of all... there are absolutely NO "silly" questions. It's not until you ask that you learn something.
Yes, by metering we mean the way it goes through the powder measure. A pistol shoots way too many cartridges for you to weigh each powder load, so you must set up and use a mechanical powder measure.
Three things effect the accuracy of the powder measure: the physical mechanism, the user's technique, and the physical shape of the powder. The mechanism consists of 8-10 sub-parts by itself. Some PMs need highly refined user technique, some due to materials and design don't require that much. But, if the granules in your powder refuse to allow the powder to flow, then it's like stepping into the batter's box with one strike already against you.
When cowboys used Unique, they loaded with "dippers". A scoop full was what you added to the case before seating the bullet. But that was 1880-1920. Since about 1980, the popularity of pistol reloading has forced the powder makers to design powders that not only shoot good, but also work well in mechanical powder measures. That's the back story we're talking about when we discuss the physical behavior called metering.
So it is true that Unique is dirty?
As I said before, Unique is a little on the "slow" side for 9mm and 38Spcl. In "plinking" and target loads around 1000 fps, slow 'burn rate' powders can't burn efficiently. Any time you don't burn fuels efficiently you get soot. If you'd like to get your bullet speeds up to 1200 fps, then Unique's burn efficiency goes way up and the issue cures itself. The issue is simply that most average people shoot less than five 1200 fps cartridges per year, but they shoot 1000's of the slower target rounds.
So Unique is great in 357Mag rounds where bullet speeds of 1300 fps is normal, and awful in 38Spcl plinking loads at 750 fps. The difference is the chamber pressure it takes to achieve those bullet speeds, because powder burn efficiency goes up with increased chamber pressure.
So there are many powders that burn at the same rate as Unique. They would do just as poorly as Unique in the same situation. So the problem really is that powders of that burn rate are not matched well with 9mm and 38 Spcl. But people keep buying it because their dad and grand dad like it, and it's inexpensive.
Burn Rate is a term reloaders use to compare powders. It is FAR from an exact science, but can be useful for general comparisons. Here are some Burn Rate charts you ought to print out and keep in your Reloading Notebook. You'll note that none of them agree !! :
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf
Hope this helps. ;)
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+1 for Alliant Sport Pistol -- priced about the same as Titegroup, but not as dirty or hot in my guns.
+1 for Win 231/HP-38. Can be used in wide variety of pistol calibers, relatively clean-burning, can be found virtually everywhere.
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Knowing what type of equipment you are using always helps.
If you are currently measuring each load with a scale (tiresome) how the powder meters does not matter.
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To add to what Wobbly said, none of the burn rate charts should be used for anything other than a general reference to look for a new powder that has a similar burn rate, always using load data for the specific powder you are using.
The only thing you can trust on burn rate charts is how the manufacturers chart lists THEIR OWN powders burn rate relative to each other. Example - Accurate’s load manual specifically states that True Blue has a slower burn rate than Silhouette. The Graf’s and Hogdon charts show the opposite.
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+1 for Alliant Sport Pistol -- priced about the same as Titegroup, but not as dirty or hot in my guns.
+1 for Win 231/HP-38. Can be used in wide variety of pistol calibers, relatively clean-burning, can be found virtually everywhere.
I have used these two powders exclusively for 9mm shooting minor in USPSA. Started off with Winchester 231 and switched over to Sport Pistol at the beginning of this year after I used up all my Winchester 231.
I have also tried CFE pistol in minor power factor but I use it exclusively to load for major power factor.
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Thank you for the replies everyone! I really appreciate it!
For now, I just wanted to reload primarily plinking ammo, if that helps. Not sure if I'd want to do self defense ammo reloading.
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For now, I just wanted to reload primarily plinking ammo....
So when you reload with W231, Sport Pistol, or anything similar, you'll want to begin at the Starting Load. That probably will not operate the action, unless it's really "broken in" and well lubricated, or re-sprung, but read on.
Take the load range suggested in your manual and subtract Min from Max. With W231 that's going to be about 1.2gr which you will then divide by 5 or 6. So your load "increments" will be 0.2gr. Let's say your Starting Load is 3.8gr, that means the next increments will be 4.0gr, 4.2gr, and so on. No need to load Max Load because nothing good ever happens at Max Load. Follow all that ?
You'll only reload maybe 6 to 8 rounds at each load, using all the same brand of brass. Shoot each group at a new target which is a 2" dia BLACK dot, which you can generate and print on your computer. Use 30-45 feet as the distance and support your hands on something solid. Somewhere about the 3rd or 4th increment the accuracy will be incredible. That's your "accuracy load", which you can further refine by going back and doing 0.1gr increments in that area. You might find that 4.3gr is slightly more accurate than 4.4gr. Your true Accuracy Load is the lowest load that delivers the best results. Now record all that data in your reloading notebook.
So you found your accuracy load, but the pistol doesn't always lock open when the mag is empty. Most CZ pistols come with 18# recoil springs. Contact CZ Custom, CGW, or Wolff Spring and order the next 2 lighter springs, say a 16# and a 14#. Try your accuracy load again with lighter recoil springs. You want to use the strongest spring that always gives you lock back. (When you shoot factory ammo, you'll need to re-install the stock spring, so mark it somehow.)
It's a lot of special loads. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of walking back and forth at the range to retrieve targets. But it's a lot of fun because when you're finished you can confidently go ahead and load bulk amounts of ammo knowing that's what your gun really likes.
Results will change when you change bullets or powders. New parts call for a re-do. BUT, you'll be able to narrow your test samples considerably knowing that 124gr bullets with W231 do best within a certain range.
And that's how it's done. Hope this helps. ;)
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Almost all CZ 9mm pistols come with 14# recoil springs...not 18#.
I think Mr. W was swapping recoil and hammer springs in his mind.
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Almost all CZ 9mm pistols come with 14# recoil springs...not 18#.
I think Mr. W was swapping recoil and hammer springs in his mind.
I stand corrected. I'm not a spring guy. I put a 12# spring in my SP-01 about 10 years ago and that was it.
Thanks for the information, Mr P. :)
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if you are new to reloading, then just get what you can find off the shelf. several good recommendations already.
but heres what i do. note, its what "i" do.
> i look at all of the calibers i will load for, maybe using the same powered or what powder will or can be used.
> i also look at the bullets i will use to. Most of the times, its just plinking rounds so they are usually nothing heavy in that caliber, but on the lighter end of the selection.
> I use to use alot of lead, but after doing alot of scrubbing i choose to move to copper wash/plate and Jacketed.
If you are new to reloading, then get what you can as suggested. Try and see what you think. Every powder has its +/- and you will eventually figure that out. Even the type of powder, ball/extruded/flake..ect will be different and again, you will figure out the +/- of each. Even if one is not so meter friendly, if may find a good deal or it gives you great results you will probably opt for cost or accuracy.
Even if you dont like what you buy the first round, you will always be able to use it for something, sometime, somewhere. If you store it properly, you can have it for years.
Also, if you end up loading for different calibers you never know what a caliber will like over another.
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I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.
Personally, I use 231, Clays, HS6 and Titegroup. Clays doesn't work well in my PCC but these work well in all my handguns.
IMHO irregardless of what powder you choose proper loading technique and equipment are mandatory.
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Titegroup is DIRTY - Hot - but really cheap and worth every penny. Some guys like that ………….
231 or HP-38 does everything a powder should do for 9mm shooting and is not expensive by any stretch especially if you pro rate it over the 1750 bullets you get per pound. I really like 231 and have a healthy supply on hand.
N-320 is the cleanest and in my opinion the best powder for loading 9mm bullets. It meters very nicely and it is clean when you shoot it.
It produces consistent PF bullets and the groups are close. It is a bit more expensive but again less then a penny a bullet more than 231.
I would use it all the time if I didn't shoot it faster than I can find it. I have 2# in reserve right now.
there are others like sport pistol I have tried and like but I don't need more than 2 kinds to choose from. It just gets too confusing for me then.
Good luck
RCG
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I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.
The Plus side of looking at the Hodgdon web site is that you'll see data for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester powders all in one place.
The Downside is that you see only those 3, and some of that is 25 years old. And, web sites change daily.... what you see today on a web site may not be there tomorrow.
Hodgdon is a powder re-seller. Not being a powder manufacturer means they do very little testing to update or fill in gaps on their newest powders.
This is why we really want you to buy a good reloading manual, such as the Lyman #49 or #50. Lyman is NOT a powder maker or a bullet maker. Therefore, their manual has a good cross-section of tested brands and types from all the manufacturers. No web site can make that claim.
Bottom Line: Start with a hard copy manual. Then, fill in the gaps using the web sites to check on up-dated load info, powder recalls, and new bullet types. Always record new-to-you load info in your notebook and note the source.
;)
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I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.
And, web sites change daily.... what you see today on a web site may not be there tomorrow.
This is why we really want you to buy a good reloading manual, such as the Lyman #49 or #50. Lyman is NOT a powder maker or a bullet maker. Therefore, their manual has a good cross-section of tested brands and types from all the manufacturers. No web site can make that claim.
Bottom Line: Start with a hard copy manual. Then, fill in the gaps using the web sites to check on up-dated load info, powder recalls, and new bullet types. Always record new-to-you load info in your notebook and note the source.
;)
I agree totally with the Lyman hard copy, it's the best place to start.
Additionally some web sites such as VV makes it easy to copy and paste so you have the latest data AND have a record of past data.
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Hodgdon develops and updates their load data in their own lab using industry standard pressure test barrels and is an up to date reference to consider before load development. Just one of many to consider and not all things to all people and of course only includes their powders.
Western Powders does the same in their lab about 4 hours from here even though their powders are produced in Europe and elsewhere. They update and publish their load data at least every year.
I have every Hornady manual ever produced and reviewing a given specific load over the years they clearly change load parameters all the time. Typically they have been reducing the max charge listed.
Nothing whatsoever wrong with using a hardcopy manual but it's a snapshot of how things are at a given time.
Irregardless of your source proper load development will always be the best choice.
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I personally haven't reloaded 38 special or 9mm Luger, but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads. Titegroup and Bullseye powder are also popular choices for 9mm Luger loads.
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So it is true that Unique is dirty?
Yes, it's a slower burn rate powder. People use it in 38 Special only because it's "fluffy" (i.e. not very dense) and occupies a huge amount of physical volume. Thus it fills revolver cases very well. (Most revolver cases were designed for Black Powder which is very voluminous.)
38 Spcl and 45APC want a fast powder (like AA No.2) due to the very low cartridge chamber pressure, which is around 18,000psi. 9mm Luger, which is up around 33,000psi, burns it much better, but it's still too slow. Think of gun powder as a fuel. Whenever you burn fuel inefficiently, you end up with 1. unburned fuel (with a solid fuel that equals "trash"), and 2. lots of soot. If you've ever had a car, motorcycle or lawn mower that had a stuck choke, then you've seen the black smoky exhaust and black, sooty spark plugs. Same thing with a kerosene lantern. If the wick isn't correct, then you get lots of soot and not much light.
So yes, Unique is trashy and sooty because it's not being burned efficiently in 9mm, 38Spcl and 45ACP. That doesn't mean it's a "bad" powder. It might be great in 10Auto or 44Mag where it's pushing a 200-300gr bullet. So it's simply wrong for the cartridge application. In decades gone by (the 1970's & 80's), Bullseye and Unique were about the only pistol powders, so people had to "make due", but that is NOT the case now. There are a dozen or more excellent powders now available for 9mm. But some internet rumors and bad habits simply won't die.
When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.
No such thing as "silly questions". But this was already answered above...
Unique and Bullseye are both over 125 years old. They are "standards", but there are powders the same burn rate that are simply much easier to work with. Unique is OK in 38, but actually a tad too slow for 9mm. It also has coarse crystals that are known to "clump" inside the powder measure and not meter accurately. Bullseye does much better as a dual-use powder, but you can easily beat their handling and performance with more modern offerings.
True, since about year 2000, Unique got a more uniform powder grind that fixed some of the issues... but it will clump and remains far too slow of a burn rate to be effective in 9mm with 115 and 124gr bullets. It might start to have application in 147gr loads, but speedy loading for 147gr accounts for about 3% of all 9mm shooting. Unique doesn't have a flash suppressant, so why you'd want to use it in SD loads with 147gr when N340 and BE-86 are available is absolutely beyond comprehension.
These "modern powders" were pushed by the popularity of pistol competitions starting in the 1990's. People simply wanted something better, that burned efficiently so that their pistols wouldn't jam with trash after 80 rounds, that could be measured accurately round-after-round, and that would burn efficiently so that the least amount of powder could be used to do the job.
Do I own a can of Unique ? Why, yes. Do I use Unique for anything ? No. In fact my can is from ~1993, is the old paper can and marked "Hercules". I doubt the can has even been opened in the last 10 years !!
;)
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I personally haven't reloaded 38 Special or 9mm Luger, but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads. Titegroup and Bullseye powder are also popular choices for 9mm Luger loads.
1) Welcome from Georgia.
Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the sticky posts in the 'New Members' Forum and also the 'Important Information' sub-section.
2) ...but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads.
With all due respect, "pistol loads" range from 25ACP all the way to 10mmAuto and 9x23 Winchester. That covers a super WIDE range of chamber pressures and calls for a whole array of powders. Your statement is 1. based on hearsay/internet rumor, and 2. far too general in scope.
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I'm a noob reloaded too and am using HP38 for 38/357. I don't have any other powder to compare it against, but am very happy with the accuracy I'm getting with it, certainly no worse than I get from factory ammo.
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Unique and Bullseye are my old favorite powders. You can use them in almost anything. But I haven't seen either in the store for a long time. I dislike Titegroup totally. It heats up the gun too hot very quickly and easy to double charge you load and blow up the gun. Since the only thing showing up at our local store is HP-38 and 231 which are the same powder under different brand names. Winchester is about $5 more than 231. Same powder. I am now using it in both 9 and 38. The best bullets I use for 38 is a Double Ended Wad Cutter (DEWC) in 148 grain cast TEK coated bullets. The one I have been using lately is Brazos Button Nose Wad Cutter (BNWC). It is the same as the double ended except it has a small flat nose on it. Brazos has their bullets priced by the pound and a box of those 38's has about 700 in the box for the same price everyone else sells a box of 500 for. Enjoy the reloading. I love doing it. It is part of the shooting hobby if you have time. The 38 to me is the easiest one to reload. Not much physical labor involved and pretty forgiving on the loading specs. Right now I am using the same load of 231 for both the 38 and the 9mm.
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I dislike Titegroup totally. It heats up the gun too hot very quickly and easy to double charge you load and blow up the gun.
The entirety of your post leaves something to be desired but I'll concentrate on the above statement ONLY. This is a terrible if not completely irresponsible statement. Many people use this powder in a safe and effective fashion and what your statement calls into question ENTIRELY is your overall handloading practices. You are the one responsible for the proper dispensing of powder not the powder. Check, recheck , and triple check if need be but proper charging of cases and ALL other aspects of handloading are the sole the responsibility of the person assembling the cases.
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Primarily, I use WST for Berry's Plated and Cast Bullet Loadings in 9mm and .38 Special.
For Jacketed 9mm, I use Alliant Red Dot for Bullets weighing 115 grains or less. However, Bullseye will also work.
For FMJ 9mm Bullets weighing 124 grains, I use either Alliant Green Dot or Vihtavouri N330.
For Jacketed 147 grain Bullets, I generally use Hodgdon HS-6/W540 or Alliant Blue Dot, but I prefer HS-6/W540.
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I'm a noob reloaded too and am using HP38 for 38/357. I don't have any other powder to compare it against, but am very happy with the accuracy I'm getting with it, certainly no worse than I get from factory ammo.
And that's where I advise all beginners to start. W231/HP-38 has a really wide load range in 9mm, so if you're measuring skills aren't up to speed it's no big thing. W231/HP-38 also meters very precisely, so it's easy to get highly repeatable target loads. And it's easy to find under one of the 2 labels.
It's a great universal powder to keep around and will have some application in almost any pistol cartridge from 32Auto up to 10mmAuto. It's not fabulous, and it's not terrible. It's simply a good, all-around, workhorse pistol powder.
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I dislike Titegroup totally. It heats up the gun too hot very quickly and easy to double charge you load and blow up the gun.
The entirety of your post leaves something to be desired but I'll concentrate on the above statement ONLY. This is a terrible if not completely irresponsible statement. Many people use this powder in a safe and effective fashion and what your statement calls into question ENTIRELY is your overall handloading practices. You are the one responsible for the proper dispensing of powder not the powder. Check, recheck, and triple check if need be but proper charging of cases and ALL other aspects of handloading are the sole the responsibility of the person assembling the cases.
And I think your assessment is off-track and uncalled for. The man is allowed to have an opinion, just as you are. You don't have to like it and you can disagree without the attack. So cool your jets.
Yes, Titegroup is a very "fast" power; one of the fastest. Fast powders are hot burning powders. One user here had it burn the end of his FO front sight after firing a couple of hundred rounds in a competition !
It's also very dense, and with a very narrow load range, so measuring it accurately is mandatory. Yes, lots of people use it. That is, lots of people with very good powder measuring skills and equipment. These are usually people who use a lot of powder, and in that application one of the main attributes is low cost.
I don't own it, use it or recommend it.
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I've been rolling my own ammo since the mid 70's listen to Wobbly. Over the years I have acquired many different smokeless powders some I use often some seldom get used. One of my least used powders is Hodgdon Titegroup the ones I use most for medium pistol loads are Sport Pistol, W231, CFE Pistol and A#7. The only time I've used Unique in the last 20 years is for 158 gr lead 357 mag. and 240 gr lead 44 mag. revolver ammo.
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I took a look at my empty 9mm brass, checked component cost and came to the same conclusion. Not cost effective. A case of Winchester 115 gr white box cost $322 delivered from Midway with free shipping. The price of primer and bullets.
Saved brass and casting your own bullets and it becomes cost effective. But prefer to use my primer stash for 38/357 and 40S&W with cast bullets.
The last 9mm I loaded was with discontinued IMR SR-4756 . Before that WW231. I don't care for the smell of Unique burning so always used WW-231in most of my handgun reloading.
Bill
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Primarily, I use WST for Berry's Plated and Cast Bullet Loadings in 9mm and .38 Special.
For Jacketed 9mm, I use Alliant Red Dot for Bullets weighing 115 grains or less. However, Bullseye will also work.
For FMJ 9mm Bullets weighing 124 grains, I use either Alliant Green Dot or Vihtavouri N330.
For Jacketed 147 grain Bullets, I generally use Hodgdon HS-6/W540 or Alliant Blue Dot, but I prefer HS-6/W540.
I bought a SIG 2022 9MM almost 2 years ago. Just couldn't get it to shoot (like a CZ) with any of the reloads that shoot good in the CZs or the factory ammo that shoots good in the bigger M&Ps. I ran across one of my very old Speer reloading manuals (#10?) and it had loads for Green Dot powder for 9MM. I loaded up some trial/test stuff using Berry's 115 grain FMJ/plated bullets and darned if it didn't wake that SIG up. Decent groups compared to everything else I'd tried. With those loads it changed the nature of that SIGs groups on paper.
That's just one more thing you can do reloading your own ammo. Work up loads you can't buy that make the gun outperform what you can buy.
Some of those old "shotgun" powders (Unique, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Green Dot, Herco, etc.) can be very good pistol powders, too. You just don't see much data in the books for them anymore.
I let someone talk me into buying some True Blue awhile back. I've not used it, yet. I thought I was getting something to replace the Blue Dot I've been unable to find. Should have looked at the reloading data/burn rates prior as it's much closer to Unique than Blue Dot. But it is supposed to meter very uniformly/consistently. If it shoot good groups in the pistols it could replace Unique in the .38's and .45's. Might work in the 9s but so far I've not seen Unique to work well for me in 9MM (.40 S&W either).
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True Blue is a very fine spherical powder and meters great I think you will like it is perfect for 38 spl. 44 spl. and 45 Colt and all weights of 9mm.
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I've been rolling my own ammo since the mid 70's listen to Wobbly. Over the years I have acquired many different smokeless powders some I use often some seldom get used.
I've only been rolling my own since the mid 90's and have acquired several different smokeless powders also. Gotta start somewhere and W231 HP-38 is as good as anywhere else for a starting point.
Yes I realize this is a 3 year old thread :)
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I plan on reloading 38 special first, and then get into 9mm Luger loading after I get used to 38 special reloading.
One of the instructors at a local range I go to swears by Unique powder for most pistol loads, especially for revolver cartridges like 38 special. While load data exists for 9mm Luger Unique loads, I have heard a couple people recommend Titegroup or Bullseye powder for 9mm Luger loads. What powder did you folks start out with when you started reloading for these 2 cartridge types?
so, its been several years now since you started this post.
what have you learned ?
its not for me, but for those following me and everyone else.
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I stumbled upon this thread and noticed that it's a bit old, but I'll still share my two cents. When it comes to starting with reloading 38 special and 9mm Luger, I think it's always best to start with a powder that has a lot of load data available and is known to be versatile. The unique powder is a solid choice, especially for revolver cartridges like the 38 special. As for 9mm Luger, I've heard good things about both Titegroup and Bullseye Powder. It depends on what you're looking for in terms of performance.
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I've used a bunch of Titegroup. But I don't really recommend it. It's not terrible. It's fine. And it actually gets clean around max load. I just don't see any need to shoot around max load with a powder that gets temperamental quickly above max load. I do not know how much hotter it is than regular powders, but I do know that beyond heat, there is something in it that is corrosive to polymers (or whatever the equivalent of "corrosive" is when talking about polymers). It killed a couple of FO rods of mine, and I initially attributed it to heat. But there is a photo somewhere here on these forums of the polymer cylinder of my powder drop, where later on I left Titegroup in accidentally for a few weeks while I was gone, and it melted it, no heat involved. And instead of a stiff hard polymer cylinder, it was rubbery. So I don't know for sure if it killed my FO rods through heat or some other chemical process.
Some powders are dirtier than others because they're flat dirtier. Some are dirtier because of how we load them. There is a charge weight with everything low enough that you will not get a pressure seal fast enough after primer detonation, such that powder will blow out of the case into the chamber as it's igniting, and gunk up the gun.
As to a powder recommendation -- Bullseye is just amazing. It's old and dirty, but it's super consistent, super versatile, and produces tight groups. It's what I ultimately settled on for gamer loads. If I were loading 124gr for 1200+ with 9mm, I'd go with Power Pistol (which if memory serves is a variant of Bullseye, the same way BE-86 is).
But I still think the best 9mm SD loads are the 115gr Barnes XP/XPD. They are solid copper hollowpoints, so they expand more slowly than JHP, super consistently, aren't as significantly affected by barriers, and achieve the penetration of heavier 147gr JHP. But they are 115gr doing about 1100 feet/sec, which is a soft-shooting load. They're 130-ish PF. No need to load stout loads for SD practice if that's your SD load. You can use the same loads you use for the sports.
Rambling complete. ;)
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Rambling complete. ;)
ID... It's really good to have you back.
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Rambling complete. ;)
ID... It's really good to have you back.
Thank you, sir. :) I stop in now and then to read. But another recent job/life change will have me settled in one location year 'round, and if I start shooting again with regularity, comments here (AND of course a ton of load data) could get regular. ;)
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In regards to the original question, I have discovered Accurate Arms #2 handles just about everything I need in both calibers.
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On the Titegroup topic, this was the powder handed to me by the person at the Dillon store in Scottsdale in like 2009 or so when I started reloading. I knew nothing. Thankfully I hired a recently retired Dillon guy to shepherd me thru the learning process on my 550. I survived. I do agree with the criticisms about Titegroup. It’s not a good starting powder and I have nothing to add beyond Wobbly’s excellent-as-usual pointers.
I have a lot of TG and one advantage is in my very carefully and well honed automation for loading bulk 9mm. I am short time and when I have it, I load lots. Like 10-20k rounds in a weekend.
Because it doesn’t fill the case much it doesn’t spill during rapid indexing. I don’t buy it anymore, but had lots to use up. My system, honed over years of adding sensors and carefully watching thousands of rounds being made, is pretty much….bullet proof. (See what I did there? :). The powder sensor that checks the case fill level for every round is key here.
As mentioned it has some weird chemistry and discolors the powder measure plastic….esp the Dillon hoppers. Thankfully if you walk in with a stained hopper they pretty much hand you a new one by the time you reach the counter…
C
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With powders being hard to find at the moment and limits being placed on the amount you can buy, I’d say if you come across anything suitable for 9mm snap it up and worry about “best” down the road. In the future if availability returns you can start being picky.
HP-38 has always been good for me. Plus you can load several calibers with the same powder and has very low risk of double charge/overcharge.