The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: JamesCC on April 07, 2022, 04:03:58 PM
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Would y’all agree to avoid having pepper spray or giving it to a loved one for protection? Chances are you’d spray your own face if you really felt like you were in danger
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Pepper spray has it's uses, but it isn't what some claim it to be. The fact is that it affects different people/animals differently. I've seen it incapacitate some people and have little effect on others. I'm not talking about people who are on drugs necessarily, nor am I talking about certain brands of the spray known to be less effective. My understanding is that even the stuff designed to repel bears, has had some failures.
Bottom line, it is handy in some situations, better than fingernails for sure, but I wouldn't trust my life to it. And yes, in the heat of a fight, even with proper training, you can get the spray on yourself. For that matter, when you spray it in a confined area (like inside a vehicle) it's going to have some effect everyone present whether actually sprayed on you or just in the air around you.
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Would y’all agree to avoid having pepper spray or giving it to a loved one for protection? Chances are you’d spray your own face if you really felt like you were in danger
As someone who has carried and been sprayed with it for work purposes I can confirm you will likely get some in your own face. I can also confirm that if anyone pulls out a can and aims it at me I am gonna listen to what they have to say ;D
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Lol. Chances that you'll get the pepper spray on your face too, but it's just better than not having anything to protect yourself.
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I thought I read about wasp & hornet spray, good to 20 feet??????????
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I carry a pocket-sized OC spray in my primary hand pocket, top-down with a pocket clip on the bottom, oriented in such a way that I can quickly draw it with my thumb on the button in a clenched fist. I have also practiced with inert canisters, as well as a few expiring live canisters, and caught some blowback in the face in windy conditions, so I have an idea what that's like. I haven't ever needed to use it on anyone to say how effective it was or wasn't, but I have seen and read plenty of examples of both types of outcomes.
I would only reach for it in a situation where I needed to quickly escape from someone who was physically threatening me, but not with lethal force, and not up close, like some unarmed intoxicated or mentally ill person on the street physically coming at me and verbally threatening but still at some distance, as something I would do before ex. preparing to throw a punch or kick etc. Basically to temporarily blind and disorient them and then turn and run like hell. It's also something I would never use to demand compliance... I'd only pull it out and use it with an element of surprise.
Giving weapons to loved ones for self-defense is problematic unless they are already proficient with them, or you plan to get them trained to use it.
I would recommend against using wasp spray for self-defense. I've used plenty of it on wasps and a few other insects, but I have heard and read that against a human aggressor, it would not be considered non-lethal force and could be considered aggravated assault, since it could lead to permanent injury... it would only be justified to use against a similar threat. In other words, if you feel justified to use wasp spray, go ahead and draw your pistol instead.
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I thought I read about wasp & hornet spray, good to 20 feet??????????
Check you local laws. In some places you may be arrested for applying these to human being.
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If you use it, you will breathe it in. If you are not prepared for that effect, you can be in a heap of trouble.
That is why they sprayed us cops before they issued it to us, so you would know what it was like. Well that and the trainers are sadistic bastages. O0
I saw more failures than successes over my career using pepper spray, I personally hate the stuff.
It does have its uses though, so I kept it available.
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During my career, it did me more damage than the suspects.
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In my 20 years behind the wire, I have used and seen used TONS of various pepper sprays. Generally on an unintoxicated/non-high person, used correctly, it will do what it is made to do. Training with spray is a requirement to use it correctly. Gas is a great thing, but it is less than lethal force, and is not a magic talisman, also, if used in the wrong direction, i.e., into the wind, it can and will disable the exact wrong person. I recommend Phantom from personal experience. I will also state about using wasp spray or bear spray, check the verbiage on the can - if it says fed law restricts it from being used for any purpose it was not intended for AND the subject sustains any injuries, court will not be fun. Use only that OC that is designed for self defense. It can be a handy intermediate level of force in some situations, but I have to state most street LE I know carry guns off duty, but I don't know any that carries gas off duty...and neither do I.
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We mainly use it when walking in the neighborhood incase there is ever an agressive dog. I do carry a handgun as well, but would not prefer to shoot someone's dog unless I have to. Plus if I miss for some reason and hit the street, not sure where the round may go.
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In my 20 years behind the wire, I have used and seen used TONS of various pepper sprays. Generally on an unintoxicated/non-high person, used correctly, it will do what it is made to do. Training with spray is a requirement to use it correctly. Gas is a great thing, but it is less than lethal force, and is not a magic talisman, also, if used in the wrong direction, i.e., into the wind, it can and will disable the exact wrong person. I recommend Phantom from personal experience. I will also state about using wasp spray or bear spray, check the verbiage on the can - if it says fed law restricts it from being used for any purpose it was not intended for AND the subject sustains any injuries, court will not be fun. Use only that OC that is designed for self defense. It can be a handy intermediate level of force in some situations, but I have to state most street LE I know carry guns off duty, but I don't know any that carries gas off duty...and neither do I.
We had a certain individual that we dealt with many times, it was always a fight. Sometimes he was drunk or high, sometimes just mad. But even in the jail after he sobered up, he fought the jailers. It usually took about 5 or 6 of us to get him hooked up, we would spray him and he would laugh and yell "gimme some more, good stuff!" etc. Yeah he would be teared up and snot flowing, but far from incapacitated. This was back before tasers were commonplace, and I've often wondered if he (or some other person like him) was as seemingly immune to that as he was to OC.
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Dang that dude sounds intense and I would argue that’s not the norm response to being shot in the face with spray
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No, it isn't normal, but perhaps more common than some might think. To varying degrees.
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In my 20 years behind the wire, I have used and seen used TONS of various pepper sprays. Generally on an unintoxicated/non-high person, used correctly, it will do what it is made to do. Training with spray is a requirement to use it correctly. Gas is a great thing, but it is less than lethal force, and is not a magic talisman, also, if used in the wrong direction, i.e., into the wind, it can and will disable the exact wrong person. I recommend Phantom from personal experience. I will also state about using wasp spray or bear spray, check the verbiage on the can - if it says fed law restricts it from being used for any purpose it was not intended for AND the subject sustains any injuries, court will not be fun. Use only that OC that is designed for self defense. It can be a handy intermediate level of force in some situations, but I have to state most street LE I know carry guns off duty, but I don't know any that carries gas off duty...and neither do I.
We had a certain individual that we dealt with many times, it was always a fight. Sometimes he was drunk or high, sometimes just mad. But even in the jail after he sobered up, he fought the jailers. It usually took about 5 or 6 of us to get him hooked up, we would spray him and he would laugh and yell "gimme some more, good stuff!" etc. Yeah he would be teared up and snot flowing, but far from incapacitated. This was back before tasers were commonplace, and I've often wondered if he (or some other person like him) was as seemingly immune to that as he was to OC.
I've met a few like that, notably one old convict who laughed at our LE Bodyguard 10 and Sabre Red gas - when he got hit with Phantom, he quit laughing. Yes, it's about 5% of the population is immune to pepper spray - wish I was one of them! I can tell you pepper BALL is bleep near worthless, from personal experience.
I watched another guy take 4 TASER hits, two prongs, two drive stuns...we were pulling out the 37mm with knee knockers when he gave up. He got bored.
Nothing up to and including 50BMG is for certain one shot stops, but you do the best you can with what you have. Nowadays I'll deploy a team with gas, pepper ball and forced cell extraction gear - I will gain compliance.
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armoredman-
Part of my experience with spray ineffectiveness relates to dogs. I've seen dogs that just didn't even seem fazed, while others yelped and yowled and were easily turned away by it. It was through that which gave me a hint at what might be involved, as it led to my reading about the way some bears were deterred from attack while others weren't, the theory being that the bear's state of mind was the critical factor. Like I said, if that stuff the Forest Service issues has failures, then ALL spray will sometimes fail. In the case of the person I mentioned, I'm sure his "pharmaceutical" condition factored in at times...but to be real honest I also think the fact that he was crazy- at least to some extent- was involved (state of mind again). He wasn't all that big, and was not a body builder or even athletic.
He just went into a state of mad that few people seem even capable of.
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Again, having working with the significantly mentally ill in three different max custody units - I agree. Some of them are so out of it gas barely fazes them. I liked the guy who was petting the service dog who was biting him AND dragging him out of the cell with his teeth...
But, I will also say - I don't carry pepper spray as a self defense option off duty. Inside the wire they get kinda miffed if I try to take my handgun in with me...
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Trout fishing we run into dogs, some time aggressive dogs. The last thing I want is to have to shoot a dog, that would not sit good with me and the owner most likely will not be feeling very good either. My biggest fear is dealing with the owner after putting his pooch down, pepper spray is carried and hopefully works. This also would be about the only situation I can see where a warning shot might work.
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Again, having working with the significantly mentally ill in three different max custody units - I agree. Some of them are so out of it gas barely fazes them. I liked the guy who was petting the service dog who was biting him AND dragging him out of the cell with his teeth...
But, I will also say - I don't carry pepper spray as a self defense option off duty. Inside the wire they get kinda miffed if I try to take my handgun in with me...
You have my sympathies. One jailer at County told me one time how I should be happy because we got to arrest them and then leave after they were booked, while he had to deal with them his entire shift. I cant find fault with his point on that :o
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Trout fishing we run into dogs, some time aggressive dogs. The last thing I want is to have to shoot a dog, that would not sit good with me and the owner most likely will not be feeling very good either. My biggest fear is dealing with the owner after putting his pooch down, pepper spray is carried and hopefully works. This also would be about the only situation I can see where a warning shot might work.
I had to spray one dog, once, aggressive puppy tried to attack me when I got out of my car at home. One quick shot of Sabre Red to the snout and he took off running at Warp 9.
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I think there are just some people who react the opposite than most do when approached with that level of force.
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It's definitely better than trying to defeat an attacker, who is armed with a knife or guns, with just your bare hands and whatever fighting skills you have
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It's definitely better than trying to defeat an attacker, who is armed with a knife or guns, with just your bare hands and whatever fighting skills you have
We've done that, with an inmate armed with a shank, "prison made knife", and we have gas, radios and guts. Nowadays we have even more options, thank fully, but I'll never foget standing next to Tower 13 watching 7 of my staff go out in ambulances.
Crosstimbers, 6 of one, half dozen of the other - inside the wire, the teams are usually pretty easy to identify. Some of them, like level 3 SOs, are easy to manage. Level 5 criminally insane...not so much.
BUT...we are digressing WAY past the original post and I am to blame as well - ay this time I do not use pepper spray fr personal self defense off duty, nor do anyone I know on or off The Job. The space I might use for a can of gas I have occupied with a CAT TQ.