The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: kaiserkudo on February 23, 2014, 12:14:20 AM
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Have been reading through the wealth of info here (which is awesome btw) and just want to get some reassurance that I'm applying the correct amount of crimp before I churn out 500 rounds.
Background information:
Firearm: CZ 75 SP01 Shadow
Lapua and Federal Brass
Berry 124gr HBRN
WINz 231 and AP-50 powder.
OAL 1.125"
Dillon XL650 press with Dillon 9mm dies (separate seating and taper crimp dies)
So...
As recommended, I seated a projectile into a sized (but not belled) case and got measurement of 0.374-0.376" diameter near case mouth.
Ran them through the tamper crimp die and they remeasured the same around 0.375"
I then proceeded to load 10 rounds as normal (without powder or primers) through the press.
OAL varied from 1.125" with the Lapua brass and up to 1.131" with Federal brass.
Diameter remained the same 0.374-0.375".
Going my that description and the photos below, does my taper crimp look correct. First time loader so I'm not sure what to look for.
They cycled through my gun by hand ok, one got stuck on the feed ramp and required a tap on the slide to feed.
Photos No Longer Available for Showing
thanks
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The bullet that shows an indent has too much crimp. The bullet should remain undamaged.
I aim for about .376-.377 for an OD after taper crimping...no less. Keep in mind that brass thickness will affect your finished OD.
I'm not sure why your rounds show a gap after crimping. What bullets are those?
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Those are Berry 124gr HBRN. I will back the taper off a fraction until a pulled bullet comes out undamaged. Thanks.
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Welcome to the group kaiserkudo!
As painter said TOO TIGHT! I run as painter does sometimes a smidge bigger @ .378 but always check cartridges with my barrel or at minimum a case gauge to ensure they "plunk". If I need to break down a round using a kinetic hammer, there are zero marks on the bullet.
The OAL seems a bit short also. Did you do a plunk test as recommended in the sticky below? If not it is a prerequisite for your experience here on the forum. ;D
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0)
Let us know your "plunk" test results (Remember to use a fired case from your gun. May take a few cases to find a couple that work)
Your W231 is a great powder to start with! Start low and work up with test loads. For example;
Below is the W231 data from Hodgdon website.
Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel.(ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s)Pressure
Winchester 231 .356" 1.150" 3.9 920 27,400PSI 4.4 1,037 31,900 PSI
Your starting load with W231 should be at 3.9. Next 4.0 Next 4.1 etc. (See Above) Don't go past the max recommended please. All here would like to keep forum newbies in one piece. O0
So load 8 to 10 rounds at each weight to test which load performs the best in your SP01.
Does this help?
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Thanks for the welcome. I sure did the the plunk and push test :)
Photos No Longer Available for Showing
My cases with projectile seated are coming out at 0.376 and that was without belling the case at all. The projectiles are 0.356".
I've heard a few different recommendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.14 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?
Cheers
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I've heard a few different reccomendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.14 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?
Cheers
I think that is a great starting point 1.140. One thing to remember is the need to check each barrel from every pistol for which you intend to reload. For example;
My 85C is about normal to the landings and similar to my Phantom but my 75B is 0.110 shorter to the landing with most bullets.
Look forward to hearing about your range reports on you loads.
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That round does not look fully chambered to me and looks long--again, to me. Compare it against a commercial round. Push you reload into the chamber and then see if there are any rifling marks on the bullet. If there is, you're not seated deep enough. The round should seat on the case mouth, not the bullet.
I often hear that 9mm is difficult to load due to being tapered. I don't find a bit of truth to that. It's no more or less difficult to reload that any other semi-auto round I reload.
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Welcome aboard !
Looks like you're doing great.
• While it's always nice to know the optimal taper crimp diameter, remember that you merely need to be under the .380" dimension as shown in your manual. Setting your crimp at .377-.378" is going to allow you to run any brand of brass through your die setup without changing the crimp die setup every time.
Optimal taper crimp diameter changes as a sum of the bullet diameter plus the case wall thickness. But the true "yardstick" is: "does the round chamber under its own weight?". That's a function of the chamber diameter... which is a fixed and unchanging dimension. Follow?
Additionally, what if the bullets were undersized and the case walls were paper thin? Would you actually crimp at, say, 0.365" and run the risk of not having the round head space on the end of the chamber? No, I think not. So IMHO while the optimal crimp number may be good to understand, it's more practical to have a nice meaty surface contact for head spacing which the .377-.378 allows. That larger crimp diameter then assures you that no harm is coming to your plated bullets, no matter what brand brass you happen to use that day.
• It's the same with the OAL. While the chamber may accept something over 1.200", it's far more practical to seat the HBRN bullet to a max of 1.140" to insure proper bullet retention.
• I use the same dies on the same bullets and don't experience that gap. That could be caused by too much TC. Back off and see if it doesn't go away. You may be seeing proof that too much TC warps the case and actually reduces neck tension. Very strange indeed.
;)
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SMSgt, he's showing the push test results---the point at which the bullet contacts the leade/lands--1.2145"
Which is close to what mine also show---a nice pointed nose and conventional ogive.
Kaiserkuda welcome to the reloading forum.
The guys above know what they are talking about.
Choosing a starting OAL is always a decision you must make depending on the tests you ran in your pistol (s). which gives the limits you have to work with.
The "Load Data" gives results they found with their published OAL. If you load LONGER than their OAL then no harm. The pressures will be LOWER in the case. If you load SHORTER than their oal, the pressures will be higher in the case. For big decreases in OAL a decrease in the powder load may be needed to stay safe.
I've heard a few different reccomendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.140 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?
JMO: Remember there are "TWO" Berry's 124gr "RN" bullets. Yours is the "Berry's" 124gr "HBRN". I doubt VERY much anyone is loading THAT particular bullet at 1.100". The load range in the data gives a safe starting point for minor changes (shorter) in OAL. .04" ISN'T a minor change. ;)
I fully agree with Wobbly about the taper Crimp. The taper crimp should completely close the belled casemouth to full bullet contact---no gaps and no damage to the bullet. My thought on your pics of the bullet damage, is that the bullet was indented and the case mouth sprung back open slightly after the excessive crimp.
As Wobbly and Riptide said. .377"-.378" should work fine with your .356" bullet in any standard 9mm brass case.
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Thank you all for the informative replies. It indeed looks like I over crimped those last ones. My brass must be slightly thinner than normal because I keep getting .375" measured at the case mouth with no bell or crimp applied , just seating a Berry's to appropriate length. i measured the Berry's and they are staying true to their .356" stated diameter.
Ill report back once i get back to the press. Thanks again.
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FWIW: Something is odd.
I load range pick-up brass and shoot well over a thousand/month and have never "seen" a .375" casemouth on a cartridge.
I do taper crimp to get .377-.380. I have seen some Fed/Blazer cases down to .3765"
I'm using Lee dies including the dreaded FCD for the crimp. ;) ;D
FWIW My personal preference for 9mm range brass is WIN & R&P. I do load mostly those two, but occassionally PPU, WCC and some ATK Brass (FC, Blazer, Speer)
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My calipers could be out? Theyre only $40 digital ones?
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Maybe it's mine. Mine was $11 on sale from Harbor Freight, but I do have a another cheapie from Frankford Arsenal that agrees. :-\
Also, at .377", my 124 HBRN will show a very faint line on the pulled bullet made the case mouth.
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Ok so I measured a larger sample of the Berry's- theyre coming out as 0.3550"-0.3555".
Average case thickness is 0.013". I backed off the crimp the smallest fraction and measurements at the case mouth on a finished round are showing 0.378". Pulled the bullet out again and there is the very slightest ring visible but not a deep depression like I posted earlier.
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THAT's in the ball park! Those should feed, seat, fire and extract as smooth as silk. ;)
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While the correct TC adjustment can be tedious to obtain, once set you're good for at least a year. Bump the die lock ring wrench to make sure the die stays put.
The correct TC will leave just the faintest circle on your plated bullets.
;)
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My money is on your 4.3gr load, and "guessing" 128-ish PF (1030-1035 FPS). ;D
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Old Rocket, he may not be stateside.
If he is, that price is waaay out of line.
http://www.tjconevera.com/berrys-bullets.html
You are probably right since he is from Oz, just trying to figure out if red shoes are involved.
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I didn't see Toto. O0
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Thanks guys. I am in Australia hence the $$ difference. I can get a HiTek coated 124gr RN pill for $90 per 1000 vs the Berry's $145 per 1000.
Anyhow - I went to the range today to test my Berry's 124gr HBRN 9mm with Winchester 231 - using my new CZ SP01 Shadow. Unfortunately the range chrono was out of service so no velocity results.
Not sure what I'm meant to look for for over pressure signs?? Flattened primers? Split case mouths?
I've placed a fired case from each group in the photos.
Test was done at 10m or around 11 yards for you state side shooters;) I was resting my wrist on a small sandbag and this is the third time I've actually fired a pistol.
Loading specs:
BRASS: Lapua
POWDER: WIN 231
PRIMER: CCI Small Pistol
Projectile: Berry 124gr HBRN 0.356" (9mm)
COAL: 1.132"
CZ SP01 Shadow with 11lb recoil spring - no other mods.
5 shot groups
3.8gr - Soft recoil - all 5 shots cycled the slide - 1 flyer.
4.0gr - couldn't tell difference in recoil. Was having too much fun :D
4.1gr - started to speed up a bit too much and the group opened up - user error
4.2gr - Noticed a bit more of a push with the recoil.
I think I like the 4.2 and 4.3 loads - although they all functioned without failures and were all fun to shoot.
Next session I will take the distance out to 25m which should reveal more.
Thanks for the help CZers!
Photos No Longer Available for Showing
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Very nice for the last offhand!
Looks like your 4.2 or 4.3 is a winner. Look forward to seeing your 25m results. ;)
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nicely done! you are a natural reloader. keep at it and try to chrono those 4.2gr and 4.3gr loads when you can. :)
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Very good job reloading AND shooting!
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Thanks guys. Shooting 25m was a bit more humbling and results weren't as impressive, even off a rest and doing my best to hold same POA- the best I could manage was an 8" group with a bunch of the 4.2gr loads. They're not keyholing- just inconsistent spread, althouth that could be user induced ???
The 4.2gr Win 231 charge also felt more snappier today with a bit more muzzle rise.
I'd love to try and experimnt with 147gr and Vit n320 to get an even softer shooting load at 130 PF.
Unfortunately its hardly ever available here so I have to keep trying with what I can get- which is 231 and WSF.
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Finally got a chance to Chrony some loads today.
124gr Berry RN Win 231 4.0gr loaded at 1.132" = Av 1000 fps
124gr Berry RN Win 231 4.2gr loaded at 1.132 = Av 1040 fps (lot of variance from 1020 to 1140 :o)
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The 1020 isn't a surprise surprise with 4.2grs. The 1140 is a big surprise. This also contributed to that average speed ?
Chronos need indirect light, shots level across the sensors, and all shots at about the same height . Normally the chrono needs to be 9-10 feet away from the muzzle. (4 marching paces :)) Early moring or late afternoon sunlight can cause strange results depending on the chrono.
Were you checking your powder drops for consistency?
I've been wrong MANY times before, but I would have bet 4.3grs is needed to to get 1040 fps.
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I was thinking that the harsh Australian sunlight was giving the chronograph some grief. The most consistent reading with 4.2 grains was around 1040fps whereas the 4.0gr was hovering around 990-1005 fps. Chrony was about 10ft away.
I dont think the 1140 reading was accurate- Win 231 measures really well on my Dillon 650- confirmed with beam scale that ten consecutive charges werent moving more than +/- 0.05gr.
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kaiserkudo, this is the method I teach and it's pretty much full-proof for taper crimping autoloader rounds. The best way to start is by knowing the case-wall thickness of your brass measured about 1mm from the casemouth. Also, oversized cast and plated bullets really need little more taper crimp than to remove the flare, yet they still have to have a finished case-mouth diameter that works in YOUR pistol where the SAAMI Max. spec is .380. You will also find varying case-wall thicknesses among different brands of brass where you might want to taper crimp according to the actual case-wall thickness for a particular brand of brass.
Here's an example. Say you measure a number of cases and the average case-wall thickness for your 9mm brass is .011". Simply take .011", multiply by 2 and add the bullets diameter. That will give you the case-mouth diameter for a finished round with the flare removed with no taper crimp. If the plated bullet you're using is .356", .011" X 2 = .022" + .356"= .378" There are differing opinions as to whether you actually need any taper crimp with slightly oversized bullets, but using .001" isn't gonna hurt a thing where the case-mouth diameter in this example would be .377". This is just an example because it sounds like your Dillon dies are sizing tighter than typical. For 9mm JHPs I like around .0015" of taper crimp, .002" for the .40 and .45 and there should be no set-back when you do the press test, pressing the bullet's nose into your reloading bench, block of wood, etc. ;)
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Equipment
Caliber: 38 Spcl
Bullets: Berry 148gr DEWC
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Win 231 (HP-38)
Max Velocity: Unknown
Primer: Federal Small Pistol
OAL: Seated flush with case mouth w/ very light roll crimp
Pistol: Ruger GP100-6"
Qty: 6 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 50F cool, clear and bright
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Load Avg Vel SD
3.0gr 638 22
3.2 668 21
3.4 700 30
3.6 746 46
3.8 827 26
4.0 864 39
4.2 936 14
4.4 975 24 Suspected Max Load
4.6 1009 27
4.8 1029 27
5.0 1031 15
NOTES
• Although we reached Max Load at about 4.4gr, testing was done in a 357 with a much higher allowable chamber pressure. Do Not try this is a 38 Spcl pistol.
• Take special note of how the velocity increments are at ~50-60 fps and then suddenly drop to 20, and then 10. This even though the SD remained constant. That dramatically proves suggests we were out of the safe loading zone.
• Best accuracy was ~3.4gr. Want to go back and test 3.5gr.
• Powder ran clean across full range
;)
(https://i.imgur.com/JjBhOA5.jpg)
The test
(https://i.imgur.com/5JG7YXf.jpg)
The view down range
(https://i.imgur.com/Kfkx0Cg.jpg)
Ready to go
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Equipment
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: 124gr Precision Delta JHP
Brass: Nickle Fed Cartridge (FC)
Powder: Win 231 (HP-38)
Max Velocity: 1050fps
Primer: Federal Small Pistol
OAL: 1.100
Pistol: CZ SP01 Tactical
Qty: 8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 60F cool and clear
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Load Avg Vel SD
3.9gr 954 12
4.0 968 10
4.1 995 17
4.2 1029 21
4.3 1053 13 Max Load
4.4 1078 8 Above Max Load
NOTES
• Pleasant to shoot; nice velocity increments
• Low SD attributed to great metering
• Cases and gun were reasonably clean
(https://i.imgur.com/jtM1TYp.jpg)
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Wobbly,
Would you elaborate on this please? • Low SD attributed to great metering Was the metering from your RL550?
Thanks,
Richard
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Would you elaborate on this please? • Low SD attributed to great metering
Was the metering from your RL550?
• 231 is a small diameter "flattened ball" powder that's coated in graphite, so it always meters well.
• In fact, I'd have to say that 231 was one of the best metering powders before this latest release of ball types.
• Since the late 90's, there's only 1 Dillon powder measure. I'm using a 650 with a modified 10 year old PM.
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Thanks for that, but I thought from reading previous posts that you liked HP-38 better? My press is brand new and just getting things adjusted and my drop weights are pretty broad, like maybe almost half a tenth either way. I'm seeing powder sticking to the reservoir now and hope it will settle in after things get coated a bit with residue.
How do you find HP-38 as far as metering goes?
Thanks,
Richard
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Thanks for that, but I thought from reading previous posts that you liked HP-38 better? My press is brand new and just getting things adjusted and my drop weights are pretty broad, like maybe almost half a tenth either way. I'm seeing powder sticking to the reservoir now and hope it will settle in after things get coated a bit with residue.
How do you find HP-38 as far as metering goes?
• HP-38 is the exact same powder as W231, it's simply sold by 2 different distributors.
• Lots of suggestions on using and tweaking the Dillon PM here.... https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=107798.0
Hope this helps. ;)
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Load Avg Vel SD[/b]
3.0gr 638 22
3.2 668 21
3.4 700 30
3.6 746 46
3.8 827 26
4.0 864 39
4.2 936 14
4.4 975 24 Suspected Max Load
4.6 1009 27
4.8 1029 27
5.0 1031 15
NOTES
• Although we reached Max Load at about 4.4gr, testing was done in a 357 with a much higher allowable chamber pressure. Do Not try this is a 38 Spcl pistol.
• Take special note of how the velocity increments are at ~50-60 fps and then suddenly drop to 20, and then 10. This even though the SD remained constant. That dramatically proves we were out of the safe loading zone[/co
Wobbly,
Curious as to why the plateau in velocity gain is read as a sign of dangerous pressure? I might interpret it as a sign that you've simply run out of barrel. If you suddenly gained a lot of velocity with a small change in powder charge, I would take that as a sign of spiking pressure. Likewise if you saw other signs in primers, or increased leakage at the cylinder gap, etc. The fact that adding powder failed to increase velocity suggested to me that you are unable to burn any more powder before the bullet leaves the bore. Am I missing an important lesson here?
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Curious as to why the plateau in velocity gain is read as a sign of dangerous pressure? I might interpret it as a sign that you've simply run out of barrel. If you suddenly gained a lot of velocity with a small change in powder charge, I would take that as a sign of spiking pressure. Likewise if you saw other signs in primers, or increased leakage at the cylinder gap, etc. The fact that adding powder failed to increase velocity suggested to me that you are unable to burn any more powder before the bullet leaves the bore. Am I missing an important lesson here?
Simply because that was my impression at the time. I know that Max Load in 9mm is around 1050fps, and this seemed to be similar. That's why I used the term "Suspected". But you are correct, the cases were not sticking and there were no other pressure signs.
However in the area above Max Load, Velocity and Pressure stop acting in concert. Velocity does not 'Spike'. It is the exact opposite. It is Chamber Pressure that spikes, while Velocity flattens out and starts to falter. This continued rise in undetected pressure is one reason guns blow up.
Because my instruments only allow me to see Velocity, and because that measurement is tenuously based on light conditions. I chose to err on the safe side and interpret the loss of velocity the way I did.
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Understood. Being conservative is always the safest path. I'd say that, in the danger zone, velocity and pressure MAY stop acting together. Increased pressure necessarily leads to increased velocity UNLESS that pressure does not actually act upon the base of the bullet (as in the case where it instead leaks past the brass, blows by the bullet to bore seal, escapes via the cylinder gap, or breaches the primer). If additional powder fails to produce additional velocity, we might conclude that the invisible intermediary, pressure, became higher than the system could contain. That would certainly be the time to stop and drop a half grain. However, it is also plausible that additional powder simply did not create additional pressure because there was too much present to burn before the bullet escaped and uncorked the little bomb we call a pistol. Again, erring in favor of keeping all your digits is wonderful advice. For the benefit of any less experienced reloaders, I would simply add that a situation such as you observed is a good time to consult multiple sources of data. Presumably you started with a published load from one manual. Consult some others. While we do not have direct pressure data available at our bench, the powder companies have extensive test info and we can compare our results to their recommendations for a clue as to whether we are indeed playing with fire. Likewise, examine the burn rate chart. Is the powder you are using similar in burn rate to those powders used in published loads? If your powder is slower than what is commonly used, expect to see something like Wobbly noted in the .38 loads, where velocity plateaus and maybe muzzle flash gets ferocious. If you are using faster powders, expect that you may not be able to reach the published velocity before seeing pressure signs. Fast powder is lovely for creating mouse fart loads but usually reaches the pressure limit fast and then fails to sustain it long enough to accelerate the bullet to higher speeds. Sticking within published data is the safest course, but even then we can encounter results that are confusing without the benefit of a ballistics lab to provide an xray into what's happening. When you get those weird results you can hypothesize all you want about the cause, but don't ignore the availability of additional published resources to help you determine whether you are being safe.
In this case, Hodgdon says max load for 148 grain lead is 4.0 grains. They got about 950 fps, but in a 7.7" barrel. Your results seem about as expected with the shorter 6" barrel. Its also likely that the cylinder gap accounts for some loss if the data was run in a test barrel.
38 special is a fun example because we have +p and 357 load data to examine as well. In the +p listings, it shows 4.9gr hp38 producing just 25 fps more (976fps) and pressure "only" about 2k higher than in the max load for 38 special. I take this as confirmation that 231/hp38 just cannot burn fast enough to make more pressure in a short barrel. The .357 data is run in a 10" barrel and we see that jacking the charge to about 6 grains does produce notably more pressure, given the longer barrel in which to burn.
Sorry if this went off the rails into complexity but I know there will be folks who can benefit from a reminder to use the info the powder companies spent so much money compiling. When your results start to look funky, stop loading and start studying.
Happy New Year all!
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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When your results start to look funky, stop loading and start studying.
Very well stated. A most excellent conclusion, and a good rule for all reloaders to follow.
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Equipment
Caliber: 10mmAuto
Bullets: RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass: StarLine (new)
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL: 1.250"
Pistol: Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty: 8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 40F and highly overcast
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Powder: W231 (6.3-7.1gr)
Max Velocity: 1182 fps
Load Avg Vel SD
6.4gr 1067 19
6.7 1113 13
7.0 1161 17
NOTES
• Meters great, just like 231 always does
• Snappy, but with good accuracy
• Preferable to WSF
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Equipment
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullets: RMR 125gr JHP
Brass: Mixed
Primer: CCI
OAL: 1.065"
Pistol: CZ 75
Qty: 15 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 80F and highly overcast
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Powder: W231
Max Velocity: ~1060 fps
Load Avg Vel ES SD
3.8gr 960 40 12
3.9 971 54 14
4.0 1010 42 10
4.1 1021 45 12
4.2 1041 62 17
NOTES
• Intend to return with 4.3 and 4.4gr
• All rounds operate the slide correctly
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Equipment
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: 124gr Precision Delta JHP
Brass: Nickle Fed Cartridge (FC)
Powder: Win 231 (HP-38)
Max Velocity: 1050fps
Primer: Federal Small Pistol
OAL: 1.100
Pistol: CZ SP01 Tactical
Qty: 8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 60F cool and clear
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Load Avg Vel SD
3.9gr 954 12
4.0 968 10
4.1 995 17
4.2 1029 21
4.3 1053 13 Max Load
4.4 1078 8 Above Max Load
NOTES
• Pleasant to shoot; nice velocity increments
• Low SD attributed to great metering
• Cases and gun were reasonably clean
(https://i.imgur.com/jtM1TYp.jpg)
Wobbly, using my P-01, same OAL, bullet, powder with WSP primers, I get avg 1040fps with 4.3gr, this gives me best PF with min recoil for competition.
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Shorter barrel; slight drop in velocity.
It's funny, but most people do end up with 4.3gr with any gun and any bullet. :D
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4.5gr W231/HP-38 with 124gr Precision Delta HP @ 1.090". My favorite and most accurate 9mm handload. 1067 FPS 15-shot average from a P07 (chrono-ed with a ProDigital), 6.3 SD and 24 ES, WSP primer, Fed brass, .378 crimp, Dillon RL 550B.