The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Tactics and Competition => Topic started by: fastlane604 on December 04, 2014, 09:14:55 PM
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Do you draw your DA/SA pistol with hammer down or cocked and locked. Cocked and locked moves you to ESP in IDPA. I'm not familiar with USPSA rules, is there an ESP counterpart in USPSA?
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IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA
If you want to stay in Production ( SSP in IDPA you MUST start hammer down
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IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA
If you want to stay in Production ( SSP in IDPA you MUST start hammer down
Yes, I know in SSP one must draw DA. I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.
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"Production" class in USPSA is the closest thing to IDPA SSP. ALL must be Fully hammer down on the draw and first shot. A decocker in the decocked position is considered fully down. The safetied pistols have to be FULLY decocked on the draw.
The "Limited" classes are closer to ESP. SA & safety on the "Make Ready". Limited 10 is where the mag can only have 10rds at the draw.
Limited class typically is run with 26rd + mags, but can be shot in "Limited-Minor PF---125pf minimum, but your scores when off the A-zone are lower than when using Major PF---minimum 165 pf. Hard to compete with the shooters shooting major.
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I am a novice to USPSA. I draw DA/SA. Running A CZ 85 Limited
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Cocked and locked. One reason I like my P07 so much. It works like my 1911s.
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I usually shoot ESP rather than SSP.
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IDPA ESP is similar to Standard in USPSA
There is no such a division in USPSA
Right you are I was thinking of IPSC.
Bob
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I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.
With a well tuned DA trigger, I see no advantage to starting cocked and locked
Mastering one trigger pull vs two might be one advantage but that would be the only one I would think.
Take Care
Bob
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For those without practice shooting DA first shots: Fear NOT the DA pull!
If your pistol is tuned up and lubed properly, learning to shoot DA is just a matter of practice. A range/comp. tuning makes it very easy to do with speed and accuracy. A 5-6 pound DA pull with a 2.8-3 pound SA is very easy to learn. Learning and using this makes ANY pistol fit your skill level. Pull the pistol and press the trigger -- bang on target. NOT learning this, can limit and/or slow your use of handguns -- revolvers, striker fired, de-cockers or DA/SA.
IMHO, the one requiring the MOST complex skill/practice is a safetied SA pistol. An extra step is required to fire the handgun. No matter how fast or safely you can do this, it still requires a slightly more complex action to fire.
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1SOW the SA with Safety on is one more step but from a practical point of view for 1911 designs the sweeping off of the safety is no more complex than pulling the trigger and for most is accomplished as the gun rises to the firing position. Some guns like my CZ Shadowline with very thin safeties it is more difficult and impossible without shifting ones hands IF your thumbs are not long.
The Glock/M&P designs without a manual safety and light 2.5# SA triggers are very fast and dominate IDPA now in all three pistol divisions in the hands of the top shooters. To be fair the top shooters could beat most of us one handed with ease. From what I can see for most shooters the gain or loss using any of the various combinations of trigger/safeties or trigger systems SA. DA/SA or DAO are lost just on the ability of the shooter.
If you look at the scores between SSP and ESP they really are not much different. Some would say they are statistically even yet ESP allows SA guns like the 1911 and a host of modifications not allowed in SSP. For most the mods and action types makes no difference in performance or so it wuld seem.
Take Care
Bob
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Thanks Bob, I don't disagree with your findings, and I wasn't trying to detract from a safetied SA pistol. I was trying to discourage those that are avoiding the DA first shot as some kind of detriment.
I do disagree with the thought of avoiding a DA pull for some kind of accuracy or speed loss. Like your seeing little difference in SSP vs ESP times among the top shooters, In USPSA the top Production shooters are every bit as fast and accurate as the Limited shooters. The Limited pistols have the high capacity mags and mag wells that do give a distinct advantage over Production class 10 rd maximums along with higher scores for any outside the A-Zone.
It would be very interesting to see a match between a top Limited SA shooter, but only allowed 10 rds in the mag, against a top Production DA shooter. I suspect the results would be virtually a tie on average. :)
Avoiding a DA first shot is not necessary to shooting well or being fast was the point I was trying to make. Each have their own advantages.
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Thanks Bob, I don't disagree with your findings, and I wasn't trying to detract from a safetied SA pistol. I was trying to discourage those that are avoiding the DA first shot as some kind of detriment.
I do disagree with the thought of avoiding a DA pull for some kind of accuracy or speed loss. Like your seeing little difference in SSP vs ESP times among the top shooters, In USPSA the top Production shooters are every bit as fast and accurate as the Limited shooters. The Limited pistols have the high capacity mags and mag wells that do give a distinct advantage over Production class 10 rd maximums along with higher scores for any outside the A-Zone.
It would be very interesting to see a match between a top Limited SA shooter, but only allowed 10 rds in the mag, against a top Production DA shooter. I suspect the results would be virtually a tie on average. :)
Avoiding a DA first shot is not necessary to shooting well or being fast was the point I was trying to make. Each have their own advantages.
I have recently started competing in USPSA, IDPA, and Action pistol after a 3 year hiatus. I spent a few months trying to shoot a Gen 4 Glock 35 and I was unable to drive the gun in a matter to my liking. I figured this was the perfect time to move from a 75SA to an SP01/SP01 Shadow while I get reacquainted to shooting a CZ. I must say that shooting DA/SA was a short learning curve for me. I also tried a match utilizing the safety. I was more accurate with the safety but I found myself drawing much faster while still easily hitting the first target from Double action. I will probably spend most of this year playing in SSP and Production.
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I am curious to know who foregoes SSP and moves into ESP to draw cocked and locked.
With a well tuned DA trigger, I see no advantage to starting cocked and locked
Mastering one trigger pull vs two might be one advantage but that would be the only one I would think.
Take Care
Bob
It's the singer not the song
Exact;y. That said when the singers all have about the same ability you would think those with additional accessories or "improvements" would have an advantage that would produce improved scores. What I find interesting is we don't see it. SSP and ESP scores at large matches are almost identical.
Most shooters on most forums want to improve the trigger pull on their guns for example. Few would argue that a tuned 1911 arguably has the best SA trigger pull in the land of firearms. You would think the design would dominate ESP division in terms of number of pistols entered and in the results not only for the top shooters but through the various classifications. But we don't see that.. The the SA trigger found on the guns, along with a magwell even on the double stack 1911's is still not enough to dominate a division nor to score better when compared to other designs. The perceived advantages appear to be just that perceived and don't seem to provide advantages that relate to improve scoring.
The effect the draw has on scoring I believe is overstated in any event and plays a smaller part in the shooters overall score than most realize. From my experience at any given match a fast draw may only come into play on a few stages. This is particularly true on IPSC stages. Most stages in IPSC and I would presume USPSA require some movement before shots are fired. You start at a shooting position and move to a door or port before shooting and the draw is completed while moving to the point where you can fire a shot. IDPA is a bit different but even there stages can involve some movement before reaching the shooting position giving time for the draw to be completed.
One item I would like to be changed in IDPA is the requirement that DA/SA pistols like the CZ be started hammer down. The guns can safely be carried cocked and locked. This would place the guns in the same condition of carry as the Striker fired guns. Both designs would start with a light SA trigger pull. I would argue this would see an end to the Striker fired dominance of SSP division. It might also generate some interest in reviewing the decision to base divisions on the type of action the pistil has or how many modifications one can do on their toys. Ah but that is for another discussion and another time.
Take Care
Bob
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Posted by: Canuck44
"The effect the draw has on scoring I believe is overstated in any event and plays a smaller part in the shooters overall score than most realize." This simply not true. If you take a B class shooter that draws and fires their first in 1.75sec. and work with them to improve their draw to 1.00 to the first shot, this is a huge gain. in the coarse of most matches it will = 3-4sec. and that will move you ahead of a lot of competitors.
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Posted by: Canuck44
"The effect the draw has on scoring I believe is overstated in any event and plays a smaller part in the shooters overall score than most realize." This simply not true. If you take a B class shooter that draws and fires their first in 1.75sec. and work with them to improve their draw to 1.00 to the first shot, this is a huge gain. in the coarse of most matches it will = 3-4sec. and that will move you ahead of a lot of competitors.
That would be true if you were firing your gun immediately after the gun was drawn. In IPSC/USPSA and to a lessor extent IDPA you are moving towards a position while you are drawing and the movement time is longer than the draw. Put in simple terms if you and I have to travel 10 steps before engaging a target if you have your gun ready in two steps and I in four and we move at the same speed our first shot will take place at exactly the same time even though you drew your gun two steps faster.
The only time a fast draw can separate the men from the boys is when the first shot will take place immediately or almost immediately after the draw. There are stages where this happens but not as often as some would think. There is a lot that can go wrong along the way to negate all the advantages of a fast draw. I didn;t say it has no affect on rersults but it isn't as great as some would think
The IDPA Classifier certainly favours a fast draw.
Take care
Bob
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the USPSA Classifier are 90% stand and draw, they favor a fast draw. I shoot 4-5 USPSA matches a month, 65% of the stages can be shot with a fast draw. A fast draw is important, If someone doesn't have a fast draw= they are slow and at the bottom of the match results. For an old fat guy I manage to be in the top 15%-20% at each match.
"if you and I have to travel 10 steps before engaging a target if you have your gun ready in two steps and I in four and we move at the same speed our first shot will take place at exactly the same time even though you drew your gun two steps faster."
If the stage permits I will draw and fire in my first step, by shooting on the move not stopping to engage targets saving more time.
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If the stage permits I will draw and fire in my first step, by shooting on the move not stopping to engage targets saving more time.
It is when you can't do that where you gain no advantage. I am not familiar with USPSA rules. IPSC has Qualifier matches and it is scores from the Qualifier Matches that determines your Classification. I would not use the word rare butcertainly the majority of the stage starts involve movement before shots are available to be taken. If you were 25/100 faster than I on a draw you would over 10 stages gain 2.5 seconds which using IPSC scoring would be lost on you with a few more Alphas or a blown reload.
Personally I spend more time practicing my transitions and reloads for IDPA than I do working on my draw. Using a cover garment a good draw for me is 1.45 seconds, a bad one, 1.60 seconds. I am about 22/100 faster without a cover garment. It is what it is and I am in it for the fun because the days of running over the youngsters are over.
Take Care
Bob
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One item I would like to be changed in IDPA is the requirement that DA/SA pistols like the CZ be started hammer down. The guns can safely be carried cocked and locked. This would place the guns in the same condition of carry as the Striker fired guns. Both designs would start with a light SA trigger pull. I would argue this would see an end to the Striker fired dominance of SSP division. It might also generate some interest in reviewing the decision to base divisions on the type of action the pistil has or how many modifications one can do on their toys. Ah but that is for another discussion and another time.
Take Care
Bob
I totally agree. I would even be bold enough to say that it would be much safer since the possibility of an AD while decocking would be eliminated. Heck, all Striker fired guns can play in SSP now.
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[/quot] It is what it is and I am in it for the fun because the days of running over the youngsters are over.
Take Care
Bob
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Ain't that the truth. This is how it is with me also, Although I try the youngsters just seam to be getting faster each year. :(
Take care
Dave
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If you want to shoot cocked and locked, shoot ESP or Limited. The End.
And +1 to what bossgobbler said.
And if you want to shoot the gun the way it was meant to be carried, work to get the IDPA rule changed. The rule made some sense as it is until the striker fired pistols came on the scene (DA/SA, DAO and Decocker models all started from the same basic condition of readiness). The striker fired guns now dominate all three IDPA pistol divisions. In part weight gives them an advantage, along with very light SA triggers. (Forget the nonsense about them being double action, they aren't). They are utterly reliable which also helps. The End
Take Care
Bob
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If you want to shoot cocked and locked, shoot ESP or Limited. The End.
And +1 to what bossgobbler said.
And if you want to shoot the gun the way it was meant to be carried, work to get the IDPA rule changed. The rule made some sense as it is until the striker fired pistols came on the scene (DA/SA, DAO and Decocker models all started from the same basic condition of readiness). The striker fired guns now dominate all three IDPA pistol divisions. In part weight gives them an advantage, along with very light SA triggers. (Forget the nonsense about them being double action, they aren't). They are utterly reliable which also helps. The End
Take Care
Bob
I totally agree.
That ridiculous reloading rule was changed after enough complaints.
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[/quote]
I totally agree.
That ridiculous reloading rule was changed after enough complaints.
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Sorry it hasn't been changed and remains in effect and I suspect will be going forward. Certainly IPSC/USPSA have given no indication they will change their Production rule and despite efforts to the contrary IDPA is not likely going to change the rule either. We all have our wish fulls and the the hammer down rule happens to be mine.
Take Care
Bob
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I think a lot of people forget these 'sports' are ALL GAMES. IDPA is not a self defense teaching tool. USPSA is not a Tactical, Carry or HD teaching tool.
These are designed for FUN and competition to measure and rate shooting progress within the rules of the games.
Some shooters are said to be "Gaming" the rules when they use firearms and tactics just within the boundaries of the rules (intended or not) to optimize their "Game Scores". This would be called being smart in other venues.
Ultimately, any intense trigger time practicing good shooting basics is beneficial to the shooter. Some procedures used form habits that may NOT be good outside the games. Requesting changes to the rules not appreciated is good.
Since all of these "games" are said to be for the members, it would be cool the members at large were given the chance to vote pro or con on changes suggested annually by the membership.
Games I don't enjoy, I don't play.
Just saying.
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I think a lot of people forget these 'sports' are ALL GAMES. IDPA is not a self defense teaching tool. USPSA is not a Tactical, Carry or HD teaching tool.
These are designed for FUN and competition to measure and rate shooting progress within the rules of the games.
Some shooters are said to be "Gaming" the rules when they use firearms and tactics just within the boundaries of the rules (intended or not) to optimize their "Game Scores". This would be called being smart in other venues.
Ultimately, any intense trigger time practicing good shooting basics is beneficial to the shooter. Some procedures used form habits that may NOT be good outside the games. Requesting changes to the rules not appreciated is good.
Since all of these "games" are said to be for the members, it would be cool the members at large were given the chance to vote pro or con on changes suggested annually by the membership.
Games I don't enjoy, I don't play.
Just saying.
I agree to a point but lately we have seen way to much "member" involvement in the rules of IDPA. The present rule book is an improvement in format to the 2005 version but is now going under the knife within a year of issuing the new version to hopefully clean up some of the poorly written aspects that came with the re-write. The phrase "to many cooks in the kitchen" comes to mind.
Take care
Bob
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Sorry it hasn't been changed and remains in effect and I suspect will be going forward. Certainly IPSC/USPSA have given no indication they will change their Production rule and despite efforts to the contrary IDPA is not likely going to change the rule either. We all have our wish fulls and the the hammer down rule happens to be mine.
Take Care
Bob
Hmm, I reread the Eblast.
The first, and one of the biggest announcements, is on the flatfooted reload. While we thought we were headed the right direction with this, it became obvious that the membership at large did not like this new rule and that we missed the mark by implementing it. The members have spoken using the suggestion tool and we listened. When this version of the rule book becomes effective, the flat footed reload will not be gone. Big cheers all around we are sure.
Wow, I wonder if this is to keep those of us who are getting older and slower a fighting chance? It seems the RO's at my club were misinformed.
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Sorry it hasn't been changed and remains in effect and I suspect will be going forward. Certainly IPSC/USPSA have given no indication they will change their Production rule and despite efforts to the contrary IDPA is not likely going to change the rule either. We all have our wish fulls and the the hammer down rule happens to be mine.
Take Care
Bob
Hmm, I reread the Eblast.
The first, and one of the biggest announcements, is on the flatfooted reload. While we thought we were headed the right direction with this, it became obvious that the membership at large did not like this new rule and that we missed the mark by implementing it. The members have spoken using the suggestion tool and we listened. When this version of the rule book becomes effective, the flat footed reload will not be gone. Big cheers all around we are sure.
Wow, I wonder if this is to keep those of us who are getting older and slower a fighting chance? It seems the RO's at my club were misinformed.
The Flat footed Reload will be gone with the new rule book and HQ has already announced it. Not sure of your quote. What we don;t know is what will come in to replace the FFR.
Here is the copy of the amended eblast correcting their typo:
"The first, and one of the biggest announcements, is on the flatfooted reload. While we thought we were headed the right direction with this, it became obvious that the membership at large did not like this new rule and that we missed the mark by implementing it. The members have spoken using the suggestion tool and we listened. When this version of the rule book becomes effective, the flat footed reload will now be gone. Big cheers all around we are sure."
Take Care
Bob
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One item I would like to be changed in IDPA is the requirement that DA/SA pistols like the CZ be started hammer down. The guns can safely be carried cocked and locked. This would place the guns in the same condition of carry as the Striker fired guns. Both designs would start with a light SA trigger pull. I would argue this would see an end to the Striker fired dominance of SSP division.
Beating the striker fired pistol shooters in IDPA hardly depends on needing that first shot to be SA. If you want to use that as your excuse, have at it.
Concur, recent convert and I am where I was if not a little quicker. I thought in the other sport there has been a shift towards hammer fired da/sa pistols.
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One item I would like to be changed in IDPA is the requirement that DA/SA pistols like the CZ be started hammer down. The guns can safely be carried cocked and locked. This would place the guns in the same condition of carry as the Striker fired guns. Both designs would start with a light SA trigger pull. I would argue this would see an end to the Striker fired dominance of SSP division.
Beating the striker fired pistol shooters in IDPA hardly depends on needing that first shot to be SA. If you want to use that as your excuse, have at it.
You obviously have not spent much time in the sport. Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns. Weight is one. Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns. Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns. Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA. Why? IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.
At any given IPSC Qualifier you might see one or two Glock/M&P's in evidence. Contrast that with any large USPSA match. The two significant differences in Production Division are 1) the 5# First shot rule and the fact Glock 34/35's are not allowed in IPSC Production Division. The latter is the lessor of the two influences. IPSC Production Division is dominated by CZ DA/SA guns - the Shadow in the main, and Tanfoglio DA/SA guns. At the IDPA US NAtionals last year there were exactly 12 SP-01 Shadows reported in the hands of competitors out of a total of 355 gun models reported. There were 133 Glock 34/17 and M&P PRO/FS 9MM models reported. Because I shoot CZ and M&P's in the main when I am not shooting revolver I tend to watch these stats. Over the past three years the nuber of CZ's has increased three fold. It wasn't that long ago when only 4 CZ's were logged in at the Nationals.
Alpha the rules of any sport often dictate the type of equipment used. What wins as well plays a major part in the selection of equipment by competitors. You can agree or not it is what it is.
I would not be surprised to see the rules address some of this. Some have suggested the present SSP/ESP Divisions be re-aligned into DA/SA, DAO, SA guns in one division and Striker Fired into another all shooting 125PF. Radical I know but doable. There is so little difference between SSP and ESP now some feel it maybe time for a reflection. We shall see.
Take Care
Bob
Ps It has nothing to do with excuses. I am way beyond worrying about the reasons why I don't finish higher than mid Sharpshooter in any Division I enter. I found peace with my shooting performances years ago. It is more about the fun factor and enjoying the moment.
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You obviously have not spent much time in the sport. Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns. Weight is one. Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns. Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns. Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA. Why? IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.
I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.
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You obviously have not spent much time in the sport. Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns. Weight is one. Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns. Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns. Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA. Why? IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.
I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.
Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins. Try again.
Bob
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You obviously have not spent much time in the sport. Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns. Weight is one. Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns. Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns. Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA. Why? IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.
I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.
And your basis for this are where exactly?
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You obviously have not spent much time in the sport. Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns. Weight is one. Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns. Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns. Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA. Why? IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.
I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.
Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins. Try again.
Bob
Bob Vogel would win with any pistol he cared to use.
Ben Stoeger made IDPA Master and has won plenty of top level IDPA matches with a Beretta 92. And I'm going to bet that he would dominate at the IDPA nationals with any DA/SA pistol he cared to bring.
Try again
He would lose like others do to Bob Vogel by minutes.
You are right on Bob Vogel but the most of the shooters shooting SSP Division shoot either the Glock 34 or the M&P Pro. I cannot recall a DA/SA pistol being carried by the winner of SSP Division in at least nine years. Vogel shoots a Glock.
We all know it is the archer not the arrow but IDPA does favour the lighter guns for most of the mortals who shoot the sport. The shooting robots can use anything and win but even they in the main choose either of the two mentioned pistols consistently and they do it for a reason.
The CZ Shadow is gaining in popularity in USPSA Production I understand. That said from speaking to friends who compete regularly in USPSA they say you see way more striker fired guns in USPSA Production than you do in IPSC Production. The 5# trigger rule plays a part in the choice of pistols. The fact the SP-01 Shadow wins consistently in IPSC Production also plays a part. The exception being Vogel's win in Greece with a Glock 17 a couple of years ago.
Personally I prefer the CZ DA/SA for IPSC and when I shoot pistol in IDPA I go with the M&P Pro. I do draw the lighter gun faster and it easier for me to transition from one target to another with the lighter gun. The CZ is more accurate in my hands than my M&P as well making the B Zone plates much easier to hit at distance. Just me, you may be different.
Take Care
Bob
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I will say I an very new to the sport. So I speak from minimal experience, about a year and a half. Doing Steve Anderson drills I am at the same speed if not faster than I was with my 34; after about 1-2 weeks. I don't think I could draw any faster with a lighter gun. I would think that for most of us mortals 0.5-0.6 draw times is a function more of how fast we can move, without anything in my hand I don't see it much faster. And besides any weight we add on the gun will help with keeping the recoil down. That was the primary reason I switched. Shooting the same rounds in an sp01 as my 34 I could see a difference, I had no idea of the CZ brand when I did this, no preconceived notions, someone handed my their sp01 and I tried it. In addition, after seeing open and limited guys with large heavy guns drawing and transitioning faster than those with plastic guns I don't see the lighter gun having an advantage. I looked at the 2014 uspsa results at least two names I recognized in the top 5 were hammer fired guns, didn't recognize the other three names and didn't look them up. I think polymer guns dominate the sport simply because they dominate the US market. They are popular for many reasons, of which many have littleto do with their inherent ability to perform in practical shooting. Not that they can't be used for that, just that is not what makes them popular. If most folks own plastic guns, most folks shoot plastic guns. I have numerous glocks and I had a ton of loyalty. Finally, I'd sat for the top dudes it is the Indian and not the arrow.
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Andrew, I agree.
My agreement means little, but I have shot with a few top guys that can pick up most anything that goes bang and impress the audience.
Liking, trusting and being comfortable with the pistol are the issues after knowing 'how' to shoot.
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andrewtac polymer guns are as popular up here as they are in the US. You see the polymer guns in IDPA but not in IPSC. I don't know how much experience you have shooting IDPA, if any, but the two sports (USPSA/IIDPA are completely different. The closest they come is Production/SSP divisions as far as equipment is concerned. IPSC Production is not as close to SSP Division as USPSA Production is. Aside from the rules there is a difference I think in approach. The two sports are shot differently and require different skill sets to be successful. The very best shooters in both sports can and do cross over. A good number in both sports don`t. Both sports appeal to folks differently that is why both are successful.
Have you timed your draws? Have you timed them using a cover garment vs a dropped and offset holster. If you haven't you are simply guessing. I have and we have timed others. You might want to do so if you haven't. Too, ignore the shooting robots. Unless you are a Master Class shooter what they do is not relevant to what you do or are capable of doing. It just isn't practice or determination that sets outstanding shooters from the rest of us. What some do is a gift few of us have. That is why they are the exception.
Master Class shooters regularly shoot the three stages of the IDPA Classifer as fast as I manage to shoot Stage 3 of the same Classifier. That would be true of about 80% of the IDPA membership. Most of us classify Sharpshooter or Marksman. If you think the Master Class shooter`s ability to draw a polymer gun or steel gun is significant to what you are going to achieve than my hat is off to you. Try timing your draws and work on running averages. I do believe the draw is over rated in both sports but for the average shooter it might be where they can pick up some time by using equipment that benefits their skill sets. A very good friend of mine who provides practical pistol training for both IDPA and USPSA has often told me he beats my times not by shooting but by doing a lot of things better than I while running a stage when he is not shooting.
Good luck in your shooting pursuits, I wish you well.
Take Care
Bob
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I have shot Idpa, but gave up on it as the rules are different enough that I felt like one would effect the other; I don't have enough spare time to do both. I do time my draws, that was where I got the number. I use a DOH, and did for both the glock and the CZ. I think the draw does have some effect on performance, but so does reloads, follow up shots etc. I thought you were making a case for a lighter gun in the draw and transitioning, for those items I am the same if not better with the heavier gun. Probably because I got better with practice. The weight did not slow me down. The da pull did give me some trouble, and still does a little; but it is trainable and I have improved signficantly over a couple weeks. Your other advantage was no da pull, well I would say if the draw doesn't really matter neither will the tenth of second longer in the first shot matter compared to the total time and shots. I feel better with the CZ affter being a glock shooter for a while, I still loose to glock shooters. Not sure if either one has a distinct advantage.
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Andrew you are on the right track. A lot of shooters make the same decision you did...both ways. No I am not making a case for the lighter gun for both sports. USPSA and IPSC are shot differently than IDPA. Your point about polymer guns being popular in the US cannot be dismissed and I did not mean to do so.
I do think the rules do dictate to a great extent what we use if we treat the games as true competition rather than some training fantasy. You initially chose a G 34 for USPSA Production. Great pistol but not allowed in IPSC Production by rule. The SP-01 is an excellent pistol and will serve you well BUT so would have the Glock 34. I don`t shoot Glocks as I find the grip angle and the grip itself difficult to deal with and is why I chose the M&P platform for IDPA. Just different strikes for different folks.
Good luck shooting USPSA.
Take Care
Bob
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Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins. Try again.
And he wins at uspsa too. He is about the only real national class shooter that participates in IDPA, and while he is in the mix in uspsa, he absolutely dominates IDPA. Why is that? Because a glock is better suited to IDPA? No, because few shooters of that level participate.
Either gun can be successful in either sport. It's all about the shooter.