The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: copemech on August 29, 2016, 01:31:47 AM
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WARNING: This thread contains
THEORETICAL LOAD DISCUSSIONS -
DATA PRESENTED IS NOT FOR USE in FIREARMS
Data was interpolated, but I stuck with my old Lyman bookk and closest match with the Speer 125 and 231 powder loaded to 1.075 which fits my guns nicely.
Surprised at results, a bit hotter than expected.
4.0 gr 1021 fps
4.2 gr 1069 fps
4.4 gr 1115 fps.
all sd's at 10, which is good for me.
Looking at the hodgden data for 124/125 loads it is just all over the board, specially with the 125 HAP data.
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If you took out three different guns, you would get three different sets of velocity and SD, and that is with the SAME bullets and powder lots in all three guns.
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What gun did you shoot those out of and how was the accuracy?
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For a full size 75:
The PD is a l o n g bullet. Load a little longer and the speeds likely will match up to your expected speeds.
4.0 grs of n320 at 1.097 (1060+ fps) and should be fairly close to 231 with 4.3/4.4 grs at a little longer oal.. My CZs accept this oal. Test yours first.
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These were shot with my P09, which has a 4.5 barrel or something. I cannot go longer , really , with this bullet in my guns.
I was not really shooting for groups with this test, but for chrono data. The groups ran about 2.5 in. but I was not on my game.
I really just picked up this powder to see what it would do as a mid range powder as compared to titeggoup and the CFE/ Power pistol that I have been working with. For more of a plinking load. I did not think it would run quite that fast!
My Power pistol loads at 5.5gr are running about 1120 fps which makes at or near 140PF and does have some recoil and flash. I had brought some along, and toward the end of the session I did pull off a really good group of ten at just over an inch with two flyers within that!
Not bad for my old sorry butt! But I rely on the red dot and the rest!
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Your numbers are fairly close to what I get. I don't use that bullet but use Xtreme 1245 RN.
I load out to 1.135 and it works in every CZ I own or have owned but that doesn't mean it will work in yours.
I pay very little attention to what the books say other than minimum and maximum loads.I rarely get close to what they say the load will produce.
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I have tested PD 124 JHP with HP-38 powder in my CZ-SP01. COAL just a touch shorter 1.070". The best accuracy was with 3.9gr and 4.0gr of powder. I felt that over 4.1gr was a bit too hot for my liking.
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That seems odd. at least to me. I have been loading PD 124 RN @ 4.4 and 1.135 OAL, For years, It has never seemed hot to me ??? Hodgdon data list 125 FMJ @ 4.4 1009 FT/S starting and 4.8 Max for 1088 Ft/S using an OAL of 1.090. Oh well.
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That seems odd. at least to me. I have been loading PD 124 RN @ 4.4 and 1.135 OAL, For years, It has never seemed hot to me ??? Hodgdon data list 125 FMJ @ 4.4 1009 FT/S starting and 4.8 Max for 1088 Ft/S using an OAL of 1.090. Oh well.
PD RN (FMJ) have very different profile from JHP that OP (copemech) mentioned. My PD FMJ RN was tested at COAL 1.150 and start grouping with about 4.4-4.5gr of HP-38. It was not hot at all. They seat in the case very shallow ~ 0.18-0.20" unlike JHP that seat much deeper. ~0.30"
I haven't found great long distance accuracy with this combo and change recipe to Titegroup instead.
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Looking at the hodgden data for 124/125 loads it is just all over the board, specially with the 125 HAP data.
I have found that PD 124 JHP is exact match for Hornady 125HAP bullet. The same load and the same POI. I use them interchangeably without dies, powder drop or gun sights adjustments.
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Hogdon's load data is from a 4" bbl.
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I have tested PD 124 JHP with HP-38 powder in my CZ-SP01. COAL just a touch shorter 1.070". The best accuracy was with 3.9gr and 4.0gr of powder. I felt that over 4.1gr was a bit too hot for my liking.
Yes, and the objective was to work up softer loads. At the 4.0 level and 1021fps that works out to 126PF and did seem noticeably different from the others. I'll see just how well they will group, but for ringing steel I think they will work out.
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Looking at the hodgden data for 124/125 loads it is just all over the board, specially with the 125 HAP data.
I have found that PD 124 JHP is exact match for Hornady 125HAP bullet. The same load and the same POI. I use them interchangeably without dies, powder drop or gun sights adjustments.
Yes, but I cannot figure exactly why Hodgden greatly reduces the load data for the hap as compared. I think it must be because the 125 Hap is listed at a .356 dia bullet for some reason, and the 115 Hap is not, nor are the XTP of either weight.
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Hogdon's load data is from a 4" bbl.
Which again may explain something, while coming out of a P-09 with 4.5 or so.
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My objective was to find the accurate bullseye load for 50m. The best groups with HP-38 were about 4" at 50m and were not good enough. For shorter distances steel shot games it could be just fine.
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Yes, but I cannot figure exactly why Hodgden greatly reduces the load data for the hap as compared. I think it must be because the 125 Hap is listed at a .356 dia bullet for some reason, and the 115 Hap is not, nor are the XTP of either weight.
125gr HAPs have to be seated deep. The reduced volume in the case dictate lighter powder charge.
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What Boris said above^^^
Look at any FP or JHP from the side. You'll see a "straight portion" of the bullet body extending above the case mouth. If that straight section of the body extends too far above the case mouth, it will contact a CZ chamber wall where it tapers in at the barrel.
CZs do have a "shorter" chamber designed for a NATO-type round nose bullet. Virtually any standard factory round nose bullet will run just fine.
NATO nor European countries use JHPs.
Added:
I was curious. I just did the push and plunk tests using the Hornady 124 XTP bullet.
Pistol bbl: CZ 75 Shadow ...Dirty chamber
Win case
Multiple Push tests in 3 different test cases showed 1.143-1.145" with full contact in the chamber.
Plunk Test: I seated a Hornady 124 XTP bullet at a 1.141" OAL and it dropped into the chamber with a metallic clink on the case mouth. It spun easily and dumped out cleanly.
This 1.141" OAL is "Just Short of Full Contact" in this chamber. A safe USABLE OAL would have to be shorter to allow for reloader, press and component variations. Using the -.015" safety margin below the push test findings would mean a 124 GR Hornady XTP cartridge OAL no longer than 1.128" in MY 75 Shadow.
It runs fine much longer in my Sig.
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You got almost exactly the same velocities I get with that powder at each grain increment, except I was using a coated FP lead bullet.
I'm surprised since I usually get higher velocities with my lead compared to jacketed. Maybe yours are seated deeper?? My OAL is the same as yours, but my bullet is probably shorter.
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I haven't done a full work up, but my "where am I" string with PD 124gr JHP and HP-38 was 4.0gr for 1023 feet/sec @OAL 1.085. So I'm right there with you.
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I haven't done a full work up, but my "where am I" string with PD 124gr JHP and HP-38 was 4.0gr for 1023 feet/sec @OAL 1.085. So I'm right there with you.
That is good to hear. No changes in the Earth's gravitational fields effecting the flux capacitor this time! I may just run with the 4.0 gr at this time for its intended purpose. If it will run the gun and hit some steel, it works. Did not seem noticeably dirty, slight smoking of the cases, but with that gun they end up close to me on the bench.
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Getting back to the original numbers, the progression looks pretty good, and although it was not my intention, it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.
Anyone who has used it for years have any idea? It appears 1200 is not out of the question!
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...it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.
... It appears 1200 is not out of the question!
What is exciting about 1200 feet/sec? Why do you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200?
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The only sure way to find out is keep loading it up until it blows up in your hands. Then, if you survive, take one step back. That will be the limit, but is it worth the risk?
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...it does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.
... It appears 1200 is not out of the question!
What is exciting about 1200 feet/sec? Why do you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200?
ID, I did not say it was exciting, but it does seem closer to NATO spec ammo, you know, the thing that most of the CZ's were designed around. I did not look it up, but the 125 WIN nato was spec'ed at 1185 as I recall.
Add to that, it seems much of your 124 defense ammo is in the upper 1100's, with the +P even hotter.
So if you want practice ammo, what are you going to practice with?
M CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo, the metal guns do not seem as pickey. And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!
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It does make me wonder just how far you can push this stuff.
The only sure way to find out is keep loading it up until it blows up in your hands. Then, if you survive, take one step back. That will be the limit, but is it worth the risk?
That is how the Jap Zero was designed!
Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
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Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
I am not your Mom to tell you that you will shot your eye out. It was just a friendly safety reminder in the humorous form.
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I planned on responding in more detail to help you adjust some views, but I went back and re-read that old thread you referenced regarding your Canik, and I can't take it all over again. ;)
That said, I can't let this go:
My CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo.... And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!
;D ;D Did you really just explain that your poly pistols need "full" powered ammo because "They are just not sprung for [lighter ammo]!" and in doing so reference that old thread that you got locked because you were fighting people advising you to respring your pistols? That's comic gold, brother. ;D
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On a serious note, your idea that your progression looks good and 1200 feet/sec is not out of the question -- you're not looking at that process correctly. A 3-rung ladder has just TWO changes in velocity. That's not much of a trend. And when you're operating with .2gr increments, you have no idea what your final tenth of a grain was worth. That final tenth of a grain that you can't see may very well have shown the diminishing returns that tell you that your useful load range is rapidly coming to an end. And even if it doesn't, you can never use that process to predict out .3gr - .4gr for another 85 feet/sec from the top end of a load window because you never know when that first big velocity drop is going to come. At the top of the useful load range, that can happen at any point. You are already well above any published data for 231 and a 124/125gr JHP that I have, and I have a bunch. You are in a space where caution is important. If you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec, pick an appropriate powder.
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Like next you are gonna tell me if I keep on with full powered ammo, the gun will never last 50 years? Yea, like I am gonna be around to care! :-\
I am not your Mom to tell you that you will shot your eye out. It was just a friendly safety reminder in the humorous form.
No offense taken or intended, it is just my sarcasm. ;D
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I planned on responding in more detail to help you adjust some views, but I went back and re-read that old thread you referenced regarding your Canik, and I can't take it all over again. ;)
That said, I can't let this go:
My CZ Poly guns simply run better with full powered ammo.... And I have mentioned before, the Canik will choke on low powered crap. They are just not sprung for it!
;D ;D Did you really just explain that your poly pistols need "full" powered ammo because "They are just not sprung for it!" and in doing so reference that old thread that you got locked because you were fighting people advising you to respring your pistols? That's comic gold, brother. ;D
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On a serious note, your idea that your progression looks good and 1200 feet/sec is not out of the question -- you're not looking at that process correctly. A 3-rung ladder has just TWO changes in velocity. That's not much of a trend. And when you're operating with .2gr increments, you have no idea what your final tenth of a grain was worth. That final tenth of a grain that you can't see may very well have shown the diminishing returns that tell you that your useful load range is rapidly coming to an end. And even if it doesn't, you can never use that process to predict out .3gr - .4gr for another 85 feet/sec from the top end of a load window because you never know when that first big velocity drop is going to come. At the top of the useful load range, that can happen at any point. You are already well above any published data for 231 and a 124/125gr JHP that I have, and I have a bunch. You are in a space where caution is important. If you want a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec, pick an appropriate powder.
Why is it that I am always the bad guy for asking questions?
Ok, ID, let me see if I can clarify a couple of things. I now have three military grade poly pistols that were built around the Nato ammo. They are all heavily sprung from the factory.
Two of these guns are CZ. A P-09 and a P-07, they are rated at 20lbs factory. Same spring in both, with the shorter gun preloaded even more than the other.
Proper spring options are few, with CGW offering a 18 lb and a 15 lb. I run one of each, and although the guns will function with low powered ammo, say 115 at 1050fps or about 120PF, function is marginal and they will dump brass on your feet. 125PF seems to work well enough for ringing steel, although ejection pattern is about two feet.
The Canik is also heavy, but I have no measure. It is a Walther knockoff. I have found no(zero) spring options here. It will choke on 120PF, with 125PF working, but ? and 130PF rocking it pretty well.
So when I started this thread, I was a bit surprised that this powder seemed to easily meet the 125PF mark, which others have confirmed, and although I had no intension of pushing it, I simply asked if anyone had done it.
Yes, ID, you are correct, as my test window was small, and I have no real reason to expand it myself, yet that question was never answered.
Add yet the question still remains when you asked what is soo special about 1200fps, what indeed are you going to use to simulate the recoil moment of full powered or plus P defensive ammo? Although this is another topic we might expound upon.
My two typing fingers hurt now. Good night! O0
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Ok, ID, let me see if I can clarify a couple of things. I now have three military grade poly pistols that were built around the Nato ammo. They are all heavily sprung from the factory.
Proper spring options are few....
This is not a true statement. CGC simply buys springs they think they can sell from Wolff. Wolff Spring has every conceivable spring for any gun made. If they don't have it, then they will make it.
https://www.gunsprings.com/
Call these people up Tuesday and talk to them.
;)
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<snip>
Add yet the question still remains when you asked what is soo special about 1200fps, what indeed are you going to use to simulate the recoil moment of full powered or plus P defensive ammo? Although this is another topic we might expound upon.
My two typing fingers hurt now. Good night! O0
Not HP-38. ;D
Factory SD ammo is running in the 1150 fps range, with some of the +P offerings slightly above 1200 in 124gr offerings. 1150 is easy...1200 is doable, but unnecessary IMO.
Try something like N 340, Unique, Blue Dot, or SR4756. Many of the Vectan powders will give higher velocities in 9mm. The data is out there.
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Why is it that I am always the bad guy for asking questions?
I don't like the term bad guy and don't think that, so I'll characterize it as running into trouble or getting push-back. You DON'T always run into trouble for asking questions. You run into trouble sometimes for scattering questions in such an unfocused, tangential fashion that it's hard to keep track of what you're actually looking for, and you get into trouble for asking questions that you've seemingly already determined the answers to, then arguing with the responses or being otherwise uncooperative with the guidance you're getting from people who are trying to help you in good faith.
And then there's the last page of this thread, which is something a little different, and it reveals itself here:
I now have three military grade poly pistols that were built around the Nato ammo. They are all heavily sprung from the factory.
Two of these guns are CZ. A P-09 and a P-07, they are rated at 20lbs factory. Same spring in both, with the shorter gun preloaded even more than the other.
Proper spring options are few, with CGW offering a 18 lb and a 15 lb. I run one of each, and although the guns will function with low powered ammo, say 115 at 1050fps or about 120PF, function is marginal and they will dump brass on your feet. 125PF seems to work well enough for ringing steel, although ejection pattern is about two feet.
The Canik is also heavy, but I have no measure. It is a Walther knockoff. I have found no(zero) spring options here. It will choke on 120PF, with 125PF working, but ? and 130PF rocking it pretty well.
^^^^^^^THESE TWO THINGS IN BLUE^^^^^^
THIS is the problem. The last page of this thread has been in response to your floating the unwise idea of pushing a 124gr JHP to 1200 feet/sec with HP-38, well outside any published load data. You know enough to identify this as unwise yourself. BUT when asked why you would want to, you went down that well-beaten path of how your guns need "full-powered" ammo because they came factory-sprung so heavily that anything other doesn't run them properly. Then you reveal these two tidbits of information below, represented in your quote from above in blue.
- You ultimately DID take the advice to re-spring your CZ poly pistols, and they do NOT need "full-powered" ammo to function properly. They are no longer heavily sprung from the factory. They actually function even at sub-minor power factors, but don't throw brass the way they should at sub-minor, and at the minor PF floor of 125, they throw cases a couple of feet, so presumably at a reasonable minor PF of 130, they're throwing brass satisfactorily. AND...
- Your Canik, which was sprung the heaviest of the three to begin with, and which you did NOT re-spring, which is STILL factory sprung, is rocking 130PF ammo pretty well.
Basically, we devoted a page of this thread to discussing your desire for a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec in terms of your needing "full-powered" ammo for reliable function. But you don't. The truth is that these pistols in question function fine with 130 PF 9mm minor loads. Full-powered? 130PF is lighter than what I shoot Steel Challenge with. You've been conducting an academic exercise on why someone might want a 124gr bullet doing 1200 feet/sec under the guise of your needing it. And THAT makes the last page of this thread more or less pointless. You have a forum mod advising you on how to get your pistol re-sprung to address a problem you don't actually have. And you wonder why you get in trouble for asking questions. ;)
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ID, I do appreciate your opinions and responses, yet I do believe a bit of banter on these forums is not a bad thing, such as my hypothetical question about pushing the powder to 1200, not that I was planning on it. Perhaps someone has? I do not know.
Of the three guns mentioned, there are a lot of other things that I did not get into as well, but two of them serve defensive roles and I do not plan on altering them greatly just to shoot low powered ammo. Although they work at 130PF, they do not really start working well until you are in the 140 ish range. Not sure I would trust them on a weak hand limp wrist shot with the lower powered stuff.
And again for the sake of banter, I do not believe that Wolff do any flat wound springs. I know David told me that he had a difficult time trying to find anyone to do them in the US. But that is another topic. :)
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ID, I do appreciate your opinions and responses, yet I do believe a bit of banter on these forums is not a bad thing, such as my hypothetical question about pushing the powder to 1200, not that I was planning on it. Perhaps someone has? I do not know.
Then it should be labeled in bold at the start of the thread...
THEORETICAL LOAD DISCUSSION - NOT FOR USE
This because there are too many idiots that will scan a thread and go try some of the loads. When YOU write it, YOU have a responsibility to all the readers, present and future.
And again for the sake of banter, I do not believe that Wolff do any flat wound springs. I know David told me that he had a difficult time trying to find anyone to do them in the US. But that is another topic. :)
You said you couldn't find springs for the Canik. Period. Now that you found them, you throw in a new requirement. So tell me... If you NEED a (say for instance) 14.5 lb spring, and Wolff sends you a 14.5 lb spring what the heck does the form factor have to do with it ?
This, just for the sake of "banter".
;)
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You DON'T always run into trouble for asking questions. You run into trouble sometimes for scattering questions in such an unfocused, tangential fashion that it's hard to keep track of what you're actually looking for, and you get into trouble for asking questions that you've seemingly already determined the answers to, then arguing with the responses or being otherwise uncooperative with the guidance you're getting from people who are trying to help you in good faith.
Copemech -
Between the points made above and the sarcasm, I can't believe you get any respondents.
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ID, I do appreciate your opinions and responses, yet I do believe a bit of banter on these forums is not a bad thing, such as my hypothetical question about pushing the powder to 1200, not that I was planning on it. Perhaps someone has? I do not know.
Then it should be labeled in bold at the start of the thread...
THEORETICAL LOAD DISCUSSION - NOT FOR USE
This because there are too many idiots that will scan a thread and go try some of the loads. When YOU write it, YOU have a responsibility to all the readers, present and future.
And again for the sake of banter, I do not believe that Wolff do any flat wound springs. I know David told me that he had a difficult time trying to find anyone to do them in the US. But that is another topic. :)
You said you couldn't find springs for the Canik. Period. Now that you found them, you throw in a new requirement. So tell me... If you NEED a (say for instance) 14.5 lb spring, and Wolff sends you a 14.5 lb spring what the heck does the form factor have to do with it ?
This, just for the sake of "banter".
;)
Wobbly, don't be soo mean! I can't help it if I am not good at typing! If we were just talking it would be different.
Add, what gets me is that out of all that have used this 231/ HP38 in the past, nobody ever really said if they had pushed it, or even said YEP,back off now, as you are at the top.
I am actually trying to be a bit cautious after the experience with the CFE powder running soo much faster than ID's data that I have revised my entire system in an effort to find out why! But the feedback on this powder and load was good.
As far as springs for the Canik go, I figure if Wolff do not even offer for the Walther P99, then I do not want to be the test pilot! I will use ammo that works in the gun.
Now, as far as ID goes, I love his prolific writing, but I admit that I am a bit offended by this "You run into trouble sometimes for scattering questions in such an unfocused, tangential fashion "!
Well, it makes perfect sense to me, and I will have you know that although I do shop at Target, I am not Transgenital! I go to the mens room.
Two fingers tired again,
:)
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ll that have used this 231/ HP38 in the past, nobody ever really said if they had pushed it, or even said YEP,back off now, as you are at the top.
Hogdon data seems to put a limit on pressure and resulting speeds: * The Hornady 125 HAP is .572" long. compare to the PD length of .583" and seating depths. The PD will gen more pressure at the same seating depth.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WQW1bNAtwJ2MLJXA00eIFS8UqVpFZw8bm6cUtzvvbhPRRV_zAFd43oOSCG4McXn7iXLtXr7t2IDxqg=w1600-h900-rw-no)
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Your numbers are fairly close to what I get. I don't use that bullet but use Xtreme 1245 RN.
I load out to 1.135 and it works in every CZ I own or have owned but that doesn't mean it will work in yours.
I pay very little attention to what the books say other than minimum and maximum loads.I rarely get close to what they say the load will produce.
Like you, I'm a fan of X-Treme's bullets. I'm using their 124 RN HPCB and have been loading it to Speer's RN TMJ specs, since the X-Treme bullet's profile appears to be the same, concave base and all - close enough anyway, that it's not been an issue for me. I drop 4.4gr TiteGroup behind the 124's and I, like you, load out to 1.135" COAL on every round I load. I crimp mixed headstamp brass to 0.376" and have had no failures to chamber. I also have a good supply of VV 3N37 and have found 6.2gr 3N37 to get me the feel and accuracy I want, using that powder and also loading to a 1.135" COAL. The VihtaVuori 3N37 is twice expensive per pound and it takes half again as much, per load, as the Hodgdon, so I keep it in reserve. I've run thousands of both of these loads through my CZ's and not one of the 6 models has had a problem with them. I've seen or felt no signs of over-pressure, even though I'm at the top of Speer's load data for their TMJ bullet, using TiteGroup.
I don't chrono my pistol reloads. The only time I'm concerned with velocities is in my long range, precision rifle rounds, so I use my MagnetoSpeed to help me find my precision loads for my .308. I don't compete (cause I'm not good enough and hate not winning) and run only about 500 rounds a week through my pistols - all indoor range target shooting, mostly shooting 10 rd groups at 12 of those 1" orange stickons (4 rows of 3), stuck onto the back of a range silhouette target. My reloads right now are for trigger time and practice only. As soon as I can find some 124 Gold Dots, or another similarly performing 124gr HP round, I'll begin reloading my SD ammo.
I realize none of this has anything to do with the OP's powder or bullet combo. I apologize for that. Just thought I'd throw some more intel out there. I might not have much to say but I sure say it a lot. ::)
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Wobbly, don't be soo mean! I can't help it if I am not good at typing! If we were just talking it would be different.
Add, what gets me is that out of all that have used this 231/ HP38 in the past, nobody ever really said if they had pushed it, or even said YEP,back off now, as you are at the top.
I am actually trying to be a bit cautious after the experience with the CFE powder running soo much faster than ID's data that I have revised my entire system in an effort to find out why! But the feedback on this powder and load was good.
As far as springs for the Canik go, I figure if Wolff do not even offer for the Walther P99, then I do not want to be the test pilot! I will use ammo that works in the gun.
Now, as far as ID goes, I love his prolific writing, but I admit that I am a bit offended by this "You run into trouble sometimes for scattering questions in such an unfocused, tangential fashion "!
Well, it makes perfect sense to me, and I will have you know that although I do shop at Target, I am not Transgenital! I go to the mens room.
Two fingers tired again,
:)
Copemech -
Congratulations. Taken as a whole, this might be your best, least nebulous post ever. The thoughts are clearly expressed in a straightforward and sensible manner. The short sentences and paragraphs help project your thoughts to the mind of the reader in a logical manner. Very good!
So, it's not your typing or grammar that's being called into question. Nor is your reloading ability. It's your lack of effort in composition. Your two fingers don't need to get tired. You have good thoughts and ideas, you simply need to spend an hour cutting and pasting the ideas into a logical sequence so that others can understand.
If we were just talking it would be different.
And that is the root of the problem. We are NOT talking; we are writing. And unlike talking, when you write you can take your time with the words. Rearrange sentences to add logical flow. Delete unnecessary comments. Clarify unclear pronouns.
Wobbly, don't be soo mean!
I'm not "mean" at all. And this is an excellent example of your unclear writing. Friend, if I were truly "mean" I'd simply delete your posts and not have to spend 75 minutes trying to explain to you that it's very, very difficult to understand your thoughts.
This last post proves you can write better when you try. Please try more.
;)
PS. You did not take my admonition to add the red warning to the first post seriously enough to follow through, so I've done it for you.
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Quit bein' so mean. ;D
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Clarify unclear pronouns.
An example:
"He shot my chrono." vs. "Painter shot my chrono."
This is clear and mean. O0
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Clarify unclear pronouns.
An example:
"He shot my chrono." vs. "Painter shot my chrono."
This is clear and mean. O0
I never have to buy a round after a range trip...
no one will shoot with me. ;D
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Hogdon data seems to put a limit on pressure and resulting speeds: * The Hornady 125 HAP is .572" long. compare to the PD length of .583" and seating depths. The PD will gen more pressure at the same seating depth.
If you compare closely HDY HAP and PD JHP, you will find that HAP have straight flat bottom and PD JHP have recessed, concave buttoms. Therefore while loaded to the same OAL they have the same pressure even if bullet lenght is slightly different. I have confirmed it by testing and load them for BE matches interchangeably without any dies adjustment. The same velocity and point of impact. HDY HAP have slight edge in the accuracy at 50yards and PD JHP is much cheaper and good for 25yard line.
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Thanks Boris, PD is recessed 0.145", so you're right on.
[Mods moved the decimal point Was .0145"]