The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: CZU on October 03, 2016, 08:29:33 AM
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First post in a while. I had wanted one of these since CZ-USA started selling them several years ago. I fooled around and didn't get one then so when this showed up at the lgs I jumped on it and put it on layaway. While it was being held for me I started looking for 10 round mags and soon found out I would probably find hens teeth first. After looking daily at the usual places with no luck I finally gave it a rest. Sat down at the computer one day and thought I should give it another try. Went to Ebay and sure enough some had just been listed,there were 5 left and I grabbed them all. They were professionally converted and all five ran perfect. Next problem though are the 922(r) compliance parts. Anyone know where I can find US made followers and floorplates?
I love this rifle but think I am going to put the regular buttstock on it. It shoots like a dream, I was using Tula 122gr hollowpoints. I will have to get some more of that stuff for sure.
(http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy178/WaA66/IMG_20161001_175110318_zpspkd6r8kj.jpg)
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Congratulations! Try to watch "Strikeback" the TV series (started out as a UK series then US) and you just might end up getting your second VZ58 on another layaway! :)
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I love the black finish on the Czechpoint rifles, as compared to the grayish on the original surplus VZ folding stocks and top section. I am on the market for 15 round mags too, they make it easier to shoot from the rest and the ground, they are fairly readily available in Europe though. Why are you considering replacing the folding with the fixed stock?
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I got my baseplates and followers directly from Czechpoint: https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/vz-58-parts-and-accessories?l=5
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I love the black finish on the Czechpoint rifles, as compared to the grayish on the original surplus VZ folding stocks and top section. I am on the market for 15 round mags too, they make it easier to shoot from the rest and the ground, they are fairly readily available in Europe though. Why are you considering replacing the folding with the fixed stock?
When I first saw these rifles several years ago they had the fixed stocks. I guess those stocks left an impression on me not only as being different but well thought out. The Czechs build great weapons and this one should have been added to the collection years ago.
I got my baseplates and followers directly from Czechpoint: https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/vz-58-parts-and-accessories?l=5
Thanks for the info, I'll get some ordered.
Congratulations! Try to watch "Strikeback" the TV series (started out as a UK series then US) and you just might end up getting your second VZ58 on another layaway! :)
I have seen that, I'll have to make a point to set it up on the DVR.
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I also own a VZ-58 by czechpoint. IMO it is much better than the Century Arms copy of it.
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The Czechpoint rifles are nice for what they are, however very overpriced for what they are! Compared to the early D-Techniks the Czechpoint ones for many yrs. have more fake parts then ever!
1) Wrong type & color of paint.
2) German barrels button rifled instead of COLD Hammer forged, not good.
3) Pistol grips & handguard now US made, even the Beaver Barf.
4)Trigger & 2 mag components US made.
On the early D-Techniks only US made things were trigger group and 2 parts in Mag. but those are impossible to find and worth much more than any current versions!
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The Czechpoint rifles are nice for what they are, however very overpriced for what they are! Compared to the early D-Techniks the Czechpoint ones for many yrs. have more fake parts then ever!
1) Wrong type & color of paint.
2) German barrels button rifled instead of COLD Hammer forged, not good.
3) Pistol grips & handguard now US made, even the Beaver Barf.
4)Trigger & 2 mag components US made.
On the early D-Techniks only US made things were trigger group and 2 parts in Mag. but those are impossible to find and worth much more than any current versions!
I have yet to see you make a post that isn't complaining about a rifle
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Stating facts as they are now! That is not complaining I just want any foreign guns to be as close to the "Real Deal" as possible and the Czechpoints are NOW way off, actually I think the VZ2008 has as many original parts or maybe more than the current Chechpoint VZ58's!
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922r. All have to have the same number of US made parts, it's just a matter of which parts. Even the early Dtechniks.
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That is correct, the VZ 58 needs only 5 US 922 R parts but the current CZechpoints also have the German made barrel which is another foreign part!.
Depending as to what type of VZ U buy the US 922 parts may/will differ!
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Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
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U are 100% wrong the VZ58 needs only 5 US 922R parts since it has a milled not stamped receiver! My D-Technik has 5 US parts trigger group 3 and the other 2 are in mag !
So I cant use original mags in it unless I add 2 more parts to gun or use compliant mags!
In my FEG made AMD 65 it needs 6 US 922 parts has trigger group 3 and have to use US made mag for the other 3 or add 3 more to gun!
Go to Chechpoint site and click on a VZ 58 and it tells U the 5 922R parts are etc.. varies on type of model!
QUOTE!
The vz.58 Sporter was imported into the United States in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3). CzechPoint adds USA made parts to the vz. 58 Sporter so as to legally reconfigure the firearm with a separate pistol grip and stock. This means that all vz. 58 rifles capable of using double stack magazines possess 5 USA made parts to fully comply with Title 18, U.S.C., Section 922(r). The vz. 58 rifle is not sold with the bayonet lug as importation of the vz. 58 with a bayonet lug would violate US import law.
The five USA made parts used on the vz. 58 Military 762 model rifle are: pistol grip, handguards, trigger (glass-filled nylon), magazine follower, and magazine floor plate.
End of Quote!
Some of their VZ 58's will use only the sear, disconnector and trigger which are 3 922 parts and the other 2 will be in mag!
Czech made parts (x10):
1: Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Made in CZ, Item #1)
2: Barrels (Made in CZ, Item #2)
6: Bolts (Made in CZ, Item #3)
7: Bolt carriers (Made in CZ, Item #4)
9: Gas pistons (Made in CZ, Item #5)
10: Trigger housings (Made in CZ, Item #6, assuming this applies to the trigger guard.)
15: Butt stocks (Made in CZ, Item #7)
16: Pistol grips (Made in CZ, Item #8)
17: Forearms, hand guards (Made in CZ, Item #9)
18: Magazine bodies (Made in CZ, Item #10)
U.S.A. made parts (x5):
11: Triggers (Made in USA)
13: Sears (Made in USA)
14: Disconnectors (Made in USA)
19: Followers (Made in USA)
20: Floorplates (Made in USA)
Total 922r parts applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58 = 15 (10 Czech made parts, 5 U.S.A. made parts
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U are 100% wrong the VZ58 needs only 5 US 922R parts since it has a milled not stamped receiver! My D-Technik has 5 US parts trigger group 3 and the other 2 are in mag !
So I cant use original mags in it unless I add 2 more parts to gun or use compliant mags!
In my FEG made AMD 65 it needs 6 US 922 parts has trigger group 3 and have to use US made mag for the other 3 or add 3 more to gun!
Go to Chechpoint site and click on a VZ 58 and it tells U the 5 922R parts are etc.. varies on type of model!
QUOTE!
The vz.58 Sporter was imported into the United States in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3). CzechPoint adds USA made parts to the vz. 58 Sporter so as to legally reconfigure the firearm with a separate pistol grip and stock. This means that all vz. 58 rifles capable of using double stack magazines possess 5 USA made parts to fully comply with Title 18, U.S.C., Section 922(r). The vz. 58 rifle is not sold with the bayonet lug as importation of the vz. 58 with a bayonet lug would violate US import law.
The five USA made parts used on the vz. 58 Military 762 model rifle are: pistol grip, handguards, trigger (glass-filled nylon), magazine follower, and magazine floor plate.
End of Quote!
Some of their VZ 58's will use only the sear, disconnector and trigger which are 3 922 parts and the other 2 will be in mag!
Czech made parts (x10):
1: Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Made in CZ, Item #1)
2: Barrels (Made in CZ, Item #2)
6: Bolts (Made in CZ, Item #3)
7: Bolt carriers (Made in CZ, Item #4)
9: Gas pistons (Made in CZ, Item #5)
10: Trigger housings (Made in CZ, Item #6, assuming this applies to the trigger guard.)
15: Butt stocks (Made in CZ, Item #7)
16: Pistol grips (Made in CZ, Item #8)
17: Forearms, hand guards (Made in CZ, Item #9)
18: Magazine bodies (Made in CZ, Item #10)
U.S.A. made parts (x5):
11: Triggers (Made in USA)
13: Sears (Made in USA)
14: Disconnectors (Made in USA)
19: Followers (Made in USA)
20: Floorplates (Made in USA)
Total 922r parts applicable to the Czechpoint-USA imported D-Technic VZ58 = 15 (10 Czech made parts, 5 U.S.A. made parts
The striker -- i.e. linear hammer -- is frequently forgotten from VZ58 922r lists. It does the same thing and would probably be counted by the ATF. I guess it could be argued in court as to whether or not a striker is indeed a hammer, but it would be a costly argument. That is, of course, if a 922r violation would ever go court. As far as I know, there have been no such cases.
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Don't know of any either but there always is a 1st! Strange part is Czechpoint lists that all VZ58's which can take doublestack mags need 5 US parts however they also put 5 US parts in their single stack guns which is a contradiction to what they said!
I have always heard the reason the VZ needs only 5 not 6 US parts is due to their milled receivers.
I am waiting to see when someone will be charged for shouldering a Sig Brace on a pistol! Been worried about using mine and the law changed a week after I got it!
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To clarify -- the Dtechnik and earlier Czechpoint guns w/ 15" barrels may have only needed 5 when they had the barrel extension installed since it's not technically a muzzle device -- not 100% certain how BATF classifies. Once you put on a muzzle device, then 6 are needed.
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.
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The striker -- i.e. linear hammer -- is frequently forgotten from VZ58 922r lists. It does the same thing and would probably be counted by the ATF. I guess it could be argued in court as to whether or not a striker is indeed a hammer, but it would be a costly argument. That is, of course, if a 922r violation would ever go court. As far as I know, there have been no such cases.
Have a lawyer friend search westlaw or lexus nexus. There are hundreds if not thousands of 922r prosecutions. Generally not standalone charges but charges nonetheless. There are also numerous constructive possession cases as well, which effectively are the same thing area of the law IMO. Recently there was a case (Ohio maybe) where a guy built a pistol AR with a stock capable buffer tube (not illegal) and was pulled over by LE on his way back from the range. Allegedly the cops switched the stock from his rifle to his pistol (both ARs and both in car) and charged him with a SBR violation. Regardless of the truth of the facts with that case, that cops will look for anything they can to justify searches retroactively (including serving warrants at the wrong address) is a long standing tradition, sometimes unfortunately involving "creating" or "manufacturing" evidence. 922r is one of those things that you should absolutely do to cover your six, just like using a buffer tube on AR pistols that won't accept a stock...
And let's not pretend that the powers that be in this country are becoming more gun friendly... Any lever available to be pulled to confiscate and restrict will likely be used, or attempt to be used, by the gun banners in the coming years.
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To clarify -- the Dtechnik and earlier Czechpoint guns w/ 15" barrels may have only needed 5 when they had the barrel extension installed since it's not technically a muzzle device -- not 100% certain how BATF classifies. Once you put on a muzzle device, then 6 are needed.
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.
Wrong again!
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG, BUT ABOUT THE LAW!
All past present and future CSA imported rifles only need 5 parts even the guns which use the 16" barrel (which they used for yrs. by now) but these 5 parts will vary as to what they are depending on Model, all USA build guns Century etc.. must use 6 parts!
Here is a partial list of what some companies use (some are now defunct)!
The following is a list of what U.S. manufactured(non imported) parts are used on the U.S. market avaialbe vz58 variants.
For compliance D-Technik Rifles use
1 trigger
2 disconnector
3 sear
4 floorplate
5 follower
Century vz2008 rifles use
1 receiver
2 barrel
3 muzzle device
4 disconnector
5 sear
6 gas piston
Ohio Ordnance works rifles use
1 Receiver
2 Sear
3 disconnector
4 Gas piston
5 Muzzle extension
6 Floorplate
Ohio Rapid Fire factory rifles use
1 Receiver
2 Trigger
3 Sear
4 Disconnector
5 Gas piston
6 Muzzle extension
On some of the new CSA models the parts may be grip, handguards and stock USA made (3) and the other 2 USA parts are in mag!
So please correct Ur info since it is 100% wrong!
Thanks
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Slimjim, you have your facts wrong. There are 16 total 922r parts on any VZ58 with a muzzle device, and per the law a maximum of 10 of those parts can be foreign made. Basic arithmetic then concludes the requirement of 6 US made parts.
You can go w/ 5, but then you are in violation of the law (again, with perhaps the exception of Dtech and early Czechpoint VZ58s with permanently welded barrel extensions). Again, here are the 16 total 922r parts present on (most) VZ58s and variants.
Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
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CSA use only 5 parts on their guns even the new ones, if they needed 6 surely the BATF would have shut them down and they also list on the CSA rifles only 5 parts are required!
However CSA has gotten cheap and due to lack of original parts on their Cal. versions they include 7 US 922 parts but list only 5 are needed!
Also on some of their other VZ 58s they do use 6 US parts but say only 5 are needed!
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I wouldn't let Czechpoint's website confuse you too much, though it is confusing... While they say 5 on this particularly listing, they also say 7 and list seven parts... If we stick with 7 and 1 extra, then we're at six (7-1=6), an d 6 is also mentioned in regards to steel trigger. My guess is that the parts list is correct, even if the rest of the listing is templated and wrong...
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/vz-58-tactical-762-?l=1
The vz.58 Sporter was imported into the United States in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3). CzechPoint adds USA made parts to the vz. 58 Sporter so as to legally reconfigure the firearm with a separate pistol grip and stock. This means that all vz. 58 rifles capable of using double stack magazines possess 5 USA made parts to fully comply with Title 18, U.S.C., Section 922(r). The vz. 58 rifle is not sold with the bayonet lug as importation of the vz. 58 with a bayonet lug would violate US import law.
This rifle model includes seven USA made parts (only five US made parts are required for 922r compliance so this rifle model possesses one extra US made part). The seven USA made parts are: trigger (glass-filled nylon), handguard, grip, polymer follower, polymer floor plate, buttstock, and removable muzzle brake. If the Czech steel trigger is preferred, please scroll down to the bottom of the page to purchase the steel trigger installed and it will be installed before your rifle ships. If the Czech steel trigger is installed, the rifle still meets 922r compliance with the remaining six USA made parts.
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Don't know of any either but there always is a 1st! Strange part is Czechpoint lists that all VZ58's which can take doublestack mags need 5 US parts however they also put 5 US parts in their single stack guns which is a contradiction to what they said!
I have always heard the reason the VZ needs only 5 not 6 US parts is due to their milled receivers.
I am waiting to see when someone will be charged for shouldering a Sig Brace on a pistol! Been worried about using mine and the law changed a week after I got it!
A receiver is a receiver. Milled, stamped, folded, polymer, doesn't matter, only country of origin matters.
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Above post is 100% wrong! As I said before a imported milled VZ/AK needs 5 parts for 922 but 6 parts for a Stamped Receiver rifle!
From the Govt website, read bottom paragraph and U see 5 Parts only needed!
922 (r)
The Imported Parts Law (1990)
178.39 otherwise known as 922(r) 10 Foreign parts law on semi auto Rifles & Shotguns
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html
Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 178.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnion)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstock
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floor plates
The 16 countable parts of an AK rifle. No more than 10 of these parts may be imported.
On a typical stamped receiver rifle you need to replace 5 parts with no muzzle attachment and 6 parts with a muzzle attachment.
On a typical milled receiver rifle you need to replace 4 parts with no muzzle attachment and 5 parts with a muzzle attachment, because there isn't a barrel trunnion, it is part of the receiver.
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Slimjim -- the VZ58 is not an AK.
The AK does not have a sear since integral in the trigger... So sear and trigger for AK only count as one part for 922r. Hence the 15 parts for AK vs 16 for VZ58, if looking at both having a milled receiver (again, entirely separate weapon designs, just shared caliber). Stamped receivers have a trunnion too, so an add'l 922r part.
That said, a receiver is a receiver and country of origin does matter for 922r regardless of stamped or milled. If you want to discuss the trunnion, then that's a separate part from the receiver...
Be careful with taking everything you find on the internet as gospel. Repeating bad information doesn't make it correct.
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Here's a chart that shows the Vz58 has the potential to have 16 foreign parts applicable to 922r. Barrel extensions, trigger housings, operating rods and trunions are not applicable on a Vz:
http://922r.com
So you'd have to come up with as many as 6 replacement US made parts to make it 922r compliant and still use stock Czech military magazines:
Those US-made, non-magazine parts available are:
1. Pistol Grip
2. Butt stock
3. Handguard/forend
4. Muzzle device
5. Gas Piston
6. Trigger
7. Disconnector
8. Sear
9. Barrel
10. Receiver
Many of these parts are made / Sold by CNC Warrior and/or Bonesteel.
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This reminds me of that guy who was banned for asking about headspace twice a day.
Last I checked 922r was based on how many foreign made parts not how many US made parts. 922r is going to vary from VZ to AK as they are completely different firearms. Even two imported stamped AKs may need different amounts of US made parts to reduce the foreign made part count depending on features of the rifle
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As I said before if a imp. VZ/AK and it has a milled receiver it needs 5 US parts!
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As I said before if a imp. VZ/AK and it has a milled receiver it needs 5 US parts!
There are no less than a dozen posts by a half dozen folks here trying to illustrate to you as respectfully as possible that you are passing along incorrect information that could get others into legal trouble. Please stop.
Be careful with taking everything you find on the internet as gospel. Repeating bad information doesn't make it correct.
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Here is what I posted on the Largest Gunforum today!
On another forum I did run across a thread about 922 and I think much info on there is wrong? I always heard that a imported CSA VZ 58 rifle since it has a milled receiver needs only 5 US compl. parts but the VZ 2008 does need 6 for 922, which is how they do come and CSA does list that with their guns.
Also heard a imp. SLR 95 due to a milled receiver only needs 5 us 922 parts? So what is the actual reason? Is it due to a milled receiver instead of stamped?
On the other forum nobody seems to agree with what I always heard about Imp milled receiver guns!
Thank You!
Below is the answer from 1 of their "Resident Experts"!
You are correct. Milled receivers don't have a separate front trunnion, so the stamped need one extra part. Applies to milled AKs, VZ's, and Galils!
The above is what I have known all along but here nobody seems to know that!
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So you're vz58 kid on gunboards? That makes sense as vz58 kid rips on every vz2008 post on gunboards about how their newly acquired weapon is guaranteed to have the gremlin and be junk.
I see you left out the next posters response:
"You really can't mix AK's and VZ's since they are completely different weapon platforms, in the end you have to get the countable foreign parts count to 10 or below. One thing to remember is you have to either know what the BATF counts as a part (sometimes what they consider a part is not what logic might consider the part to be) so if there's no clear cut answer manufacturers might decide to err on the side of caution in some cases (and could explain why some count 5 while others count 6). On AK's the list is well documented, I'm not so sure it's the same with the VZ's."
He has 36,000 posts compared to your posters 1,400. He clearly states it is about having 10 or fewer foreign made parts on the BATF list. Milled receiver guns TEND to need less US made parts but not always. Example: milled rifle with muzzle device versus stamped rifle with non-threaded muzzle
I'm still trying to figure out though what milled vs stamped has to do with VZs as both the vz58 and vz2008 have milled receivers. That kind of defeats your argument on why the vz2008 needs one more part since it's not a stamped receiver
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Yep on Gunboards I am vz58kid!
Yes its true VZ & Ak are different, also I am sure that the Experts here "DONT" know that a milled AK requires only 4 (NOT 5) 922 r parts if it doesn't have a milled receiver needs 4 US parts if no threaded barrel, 5 with the threaded barrel if you have a muzzle device,
Stamped receiver takes 5 US parts without a removable muzzle device, 6 with!
This is basic stuff I have always known!
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Brasky, the reason a VZ2008 is a prob wait to happen is that when after spending 4 yrs. or so to make the original VZ58 100% reliable in semi, D-Tecknik besides the Tab on the bolt the did a few more mods and as we all know the welded tab on the VZ 2008s still have the Gremlin!
99% of all Century (Monkey) builds are Junk! Many worse than others!
PS!
The 2nd response on Gunbooards is correct about the 10 parts in 2nd post which was not up when I posted here!
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Brasky, the reason a VZ2008 is a prob wait to happen is that when after spending 4 yrs. or so to make the original VZ58 100% reliable in semi, D-Tecknik besides the Tab on the bolt the did a few more mods and as we all know the welded tab on the VZ 2008s still have the Gremlin!
What are the mods besides the tab on the D-Teckniks?
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T JNewton, I would have to lie to U since last time I watched the disc was 10 yrs. ago and I have no idea where that disc is at now.
I do remember they said they worked on the gun for around 4 yrs. and had 2 different teams on it before they solved the major issue which (now all call the Gremlin) and it solved the issue by adding the tab most of the time but after much testing they did at least 2 more mods, exactly what I don't remember or if they even stated them.
But they stated no other comp has ever been able to solve that issue and they patented it, then Century put the Tab on their VZ2008 but had to stop when they were sued, while the Century tab does reduce the Gremlin a lot it didn't fix the gun!
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It may be that a persistent gremlin, despite the tab, is due to an extreme difference in the mating of parts in a particular rifle. It could be that a locking block made in 1958 combined with a striker made in 1972 combined with a second generation Century disconnector combined with a weak recoil spring... etc, etc, etc, would create a mismatch on the far end of the bell curve. Reportedly, the VZ58 is designed with "a ton of slop" to mitigate potential problems with military refurbishing and differences of manufacture across regions and decades. Even that would have limits.
My VZ2008's have gone through thousands of rounds without any problems, and the first 1,000 rounds of each without a tab. The inside of the receivers are shiny with mating marks but everything still looks fine without undue wear. Who knows, a problem might surface if I'd start exchanging parts between the rifles, but I haven't had the need and would be hesitant anyway due to possible head space issues.
To say that 99% of VZ2008's are junk is either ignorance or hyperbole, both of which are correctable positions. Do a search for any variation of a VZ58 clone -- D-Technik, ORF, OOW, CZ-USA, CAI -- and you will find posts both lauding and cursing each one. Proportionally, there are far more praises for the VZ2008 than criticisms. Unless you've personally fired a hundred VZ2008's and only one of them worked well, you don't have an informed or legitimate opinion. Try typing in any firearm model, followed by the word "problems", and you'll find dozens and dozens of reports, whether it's Century or Ruger or Beretta or S&W or Glock or Remington... on and on.
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I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..
The VZ2008 had issues from day 1 but I would agree the later 1s are better and more reliable also do u remember the OOW Fiasco with the VZ2000, these were so unreliable and OOW could never fix them but they finally quit making them.
The worst receiver U can get on a VZ2008 is the ORF junk ones which had so many issues it was sad!
It does seem all who have a VZ2008 do have the Tab installed afterwards and hope for the best.
I have a few kits and thought about doing 1 VZ58, but the prob was a receiver and even the bad ones were going for over $200. way back when, its just not worth it!
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I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..
Thanks for the clarification.
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Here is what I posted on the Largest Gunforum today!
On another forum I did run across a thread about 922 and I think much info on there is wrong? I always heard that a imported CSA VZ 58 rifle since it has a milled receiver needs only 5 US compl. parts but the VZ 2008 does need 6 for 922, which is how they do come and CSA does list that with their guns.
Also heard a imp. SLR 95 due to a milled receiver only needs 5 us 922 parts? So what is the actual reason? Is it due to a milled receiver instead of stamped?
On the other forum nobody seems to agree with what I always heard about Imp milled receiver guns!
Thank You!
Below is the answer from 1 of their "Resident Experts"!
You are correct. Milled receivers don't have a separate front trunnion, so the stamped need one extra part. Applies to milled AKs, VZ's, and Galils!
The above is what I have known all along but here nobody seems to know that!
slimjim -- in the psychology world this is a classic example of what is known as "confirmation bias." Which means the only answer you will accept as "correct" is the one that agrees with your opinion... In the internet, once can always find another who agrees with them no matter how outlandish... Part of the reason the internet has been so powerful at assisting crazy radicals to do crazy radical things...
Regardless, my previously stated position remains in full effect:
Be careful with taking everything you find on the internet as gospel. Repeating bad information doesn't make it correct.
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I'm still trying to figure out though what milled vs stamped has to do with VZs as both the vz58 and vz2008 have milled receivers. That kind of defeats your argument on why the vz2008 needs one more part since it's not a stamped receiver
Worth noting that someone does make a stamped receiver that rivets to cut front halfs in the demilled parts kits. Not sure how that affects 922r -- but the only way that could affect is to push the total parts count to 17, meaning 7 rather than 6 US parts are required.
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Yep on Gunboards I am vz58kid!
Yes its true VZ & Ak are different, also I am sure that the Experts here "DONT" know that a milled AK requires only 4 (NOT 5) 922 r parts if it doesn't have a milled receiver needs 4 US parts if no threaded barrel, 5 with the threaded barrel if you have a muzzle device,
Stamped receiver takes 5 US parts without a removable muzzle device, 6 with!
This is basic stuff I have always known!
Yes, we are clearly ignorant of that fact, and it clearly has not been discussed as it relates to VZ58s/variants already in this thread...
To clarify -- the Dtechnik and earlier Czechpoint guns w/ 15" barrels may have only needed 5 when they had the barrel extension installed since it's not technically a muzzle device -- not 100% certain how BATF classifies. Once you put on a muzzle device, then 6 are needed.
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.
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I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..
Yes, Century screwed up the Century CETME, but the recent C308s are better.
The Mas 49/56 was only rechambered by Century, not built.
The WASRs are built in Romania and merely converted to doublestack and non-sporter configuration by Century. Except for sloppy mag fit; most WASR assembly issues are the Cugir factory's fault.
Tantals had a chamber sizing issue on some barrels IIRC (likely a Green Mountain fault, presuming they made the barrels, and not Century's on the assembly side), but otherwise, haven't heard much bad about the Tantals that were going for sub-$500 typically and sub $400 quite often at the time...
Much of the rest of that post is as equally confused.
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Rechambered = Rebuild to a different cal. Wasrs also had many issues just being opened at magwell at Century and some Rom. guns were Century build.
Tantals had wrong size cal. barrels installed!
I am glad at least that it seems that many on here do know believe what I said all along!
Imp. milled AKs needs only 4 or 5 us parts depending on barrel is threaded or not! Imp. VZ58s need only 5 parts since milled and sadly U still don't believe this!
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Quote!
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.
50% WRONG! It tells U that on the CSA site those use only 5 parts! CSA has been running low on original parts for a long time and do on some types include 7 us parts and tell u only 5 are actually needed.
The VZ2008 does need 6 us parts!
Sadly CSA does rarely offer only a very few of the original gray with beaver barf (early type) guns with original Czech barrels and last batch I saw was starting at $1350. and they had only 6 of these about 6 weeks ago!
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Imp. milled AKs needs only 4 or 5 us parts depending on barrel is threaded or not! Imp. VZ58s need only 5 parts since milled and sadly U still don't believe this!
VZ58s ARE NOT AKs. There is no equivalency between the two, irrespective of receiver construction, regardless of your insistence of such. Full stop.
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Quote!
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.
50% WRONG! It tells U that on the CSA site those use only 5 parts! CSA has been running low on original parts for a long time and do on some types include 7 us parts and tell u only 5 are actually needed.
The VZ2008 does need 6 us parts!
Sadly CSA does rarely offer only a very few of the original gray with beaver barf (early type) guns with original Czech barrels and last batch I saw was starting at $1350. and they had only 6 of these about 6 weeks ago!
My answer was 100% correct, and yours continues to be completely wrong.
Tell me, which of the following and previously posted 16 parts are not present on the new Czechpoint guns. You need to eliminate at least one for your insistence on 5 to be correct.
Here's a hint -- you can't. As illustrated in the Czechpoint listing they mentioned 5, 6, and 7 US compliant parts! The fact that they're terrible at their website listings has absolutely no affect on the letter of the law, which is a max of 10 foreign-made parts.
Slimjim, you have your facts wrong. There are 16 total 922r parts on any VZ58 with a muzzle device, and per the law a maximum of 10 of those parts can be foreign made. Basic arithmetic then concludes the requirement of 6 US made parts.
You can go w/ 5, but then you are in violation of the law (again, with perhaps the exception of Dtech and early Czechpoint VZ58s with permanently welded barrel extensions). Again, here are the 16 total 922r parts present on (most) VZ58s and variants.
Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
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I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..
The VZ2008 had issues from day 1 but I would agree the later 1s are better and more reliable also do u remember the OOW Fiasco with the VZ2000, these were so unreliable and OOW could never fix them but they finally quit making them.
The worst receiver U can get on a VZ2008 is the ORF junk ones which had so many issues it was sad!
It does seem all who have a VZ2008 do have the Tab installed afterwards and hope for the best.
I have a few kits and thought about doing 1 VZ58, but the prob was a receiver and even the bad ones were going for over $200. way back when, its just not worth it!
In a matter of a few posts you stated that WASRs were century built despite being built in Romania and lest we forget they are considered some of the most robust of stamped AKs, a full auto range that has tested numerous types of AKs found that the Wasr typically lasts longer than any of the others including Arsenal. Most last 80,000-100,000 rounds at that range.
Then you stated milled need 4 OR 5 parts and stamped need 5 OR 6 despite earlier saying all milled need 5 and all stamped need 6.
This is a forum for the VZ58. If you think it is a flawed design in semi-auto mode, then why are you here? !!!!
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OMG! Seems when some find out as to how wrong their info is and then take what I said and twist/turn it around!
I never said VZ and AK were the same but included the AK info since some dnt know and need to IMP. VZ58s need 5 US 922 parts and milled AK's need 5 US parts but some may need only 4 same with the Galil!
QUOTE!
Then you stated milled need 4 OR 5 parts and stamped need 5 OR 6 despite earlier saying all milled need 5 and all stamped need 6.
END O QUOTE!
Correct I simply went into further detail! VZ=5, Milled AK=5 but only 4 depending on barrel configuration. Stamped AK=6.
Most CSA guns use only 5 US parts which CSA states is all that is required NOT 6 as some here believe, but on some models due to lack of original parts they use 6 or 7 US parts and tell U only 5 are required! CSA is as of last yr. also building some VZ 58's here Stateside!
There are many Century WASR variants and some have been build by Century since 2008 with Nodak receivers and Green Mt. barrels, however the original WASR rifles were imported and then disassembled here and mag well widened and US parts added and then rebuild by Century!
Century also build some PLS rifles from kits with us receivers etc..
Brasky I do feel bad about all the issues Ur VZ 2008 has been having, sadly seems like a new 1 everytime U shoot (try to) it!
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Slimjim -- how does 16 minus 10 equal 5?
Also, you do realize that to import a weapon requires no US made parts? It's when altering from that import sporter configuration that 922r and US parts count comes into play.
No one is twisting your words. For whatever reason, your posts remind me, and presumably others, of Donald Trump at the debates... Half thoughts and twists and turns and wild assertions...
Again, please respond, and factually disprove this post point by point. If you cannot or will not, please stop hijacking the OP's thread with off topic and factually incorrect BS.
My answer was 100% correct, and yours continues to be completely wrong.
Tell me, which of the following and previously posted 16 parts are not present on the new Czechpoint guns. You need to eliminate at least one for your insistence on 5 to be correct.
Here's a hint -- you can't. As illustrated in the Czechpoint listing they mentioned 5, 6, and 7 US compliant parts! The fact that they're terrible at their website listings has absolutely no affect on the letter of the law, which is a max of 10 foreign-made parts.
Slimjim, you have your facts wrong. There are 16 total 922r parts on any VZ58 with a muzzle device, and per the law a maximum of 10 of those parts can be foreign made. Basic arithmetic then concludes the requirement of 6 US made parts.
You can go w/ 5, but then you are in violation of the law (again, with perhaps the exception of Dtech and early Czechpoint VZ58s with permanently welded barrel extensions). Again, here are the 16 total 922r parts present on (most) VZ58s and variants.
Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
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Quote from: RSR on October 26, 2016, 03:44:14 AM
Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
End of QUOTE!
OMG! U really don't know much about the VZ58! It has 15 not 16 ! The VZ 58 DOES NOT HAVE A HAMMER, it has a "STRYKER"!
NO please post U have been 100% Wrong!
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Quote from: RSR on October 26, 2016, 03:44:14 AM
Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
End of QUOTE!
OMG! U really don't know much about the VZ58! It has 15 not 16 ! The VZ 58 DOES NOT HAVE A HAMMER, it has a "STRYKER"!
NO please post U have been 100% Wrong!
Last I checked it was a linear hammer
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The Real "Experts" consider it a Stryker as does the BATF!
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vz.58: The vz.58 does not use a conventional hammer; instead it utilizes a striker-fired design. The striker has a lug that interacts with a pair of sears, which are used to hold the striker in the cocked position. The trigger mechanism consists of two sears mounted side by side with one located slightly forward of the other. The auto sear on the right side is connected to a sear trip actuated by the bolt carrier. Unless the bolt is fully forward and locked into battery, the trip holds up the right-hand sear and the striker is held back. The left-hand sear works in concert with a disconnector for semiautomatic operation. There are two springs, one for the striker and another for the bolt carrier.
Is there anything else U would like to know about the VZ58?
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vz.58: The vz.58 does not use a conventional hammer; instead it utilizes a striker-fired design. The striker has a lug that interacts with a pair of sears, which are used to hold the striker in the cocked position. The trigger mechanism consists of two sears mounted side by side with one located slightly forward of the other. The auto sear on the right side is connected to a sear trip actuated by the bolt carrier. Unless the bolt is fully forward and locked into battery, the trip holds up the right-hand sear and the striker is held back. The left-hand sear works in concert with a disconnector for semiautomatic operation. There are two springs, one for the striker and another for the bolt carrier.
Is there anything else U would like to know about the VZ58?
So how many US made parts does a stamped VZ need again?
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Don't know of any except the 1 u were "Trying" to build! Are U maybe talking about a stamped SKS? Yep those were made!
Just found this by RSR !
Quote!
Yes, Century had a really bad go with the Tantals, Golanis, CETMEs, etc. All of those were around 2008? The tantals were a 223 barrel, not 5.45. The bolt grinding and all of those issues were largely 2008 as well.
Not quite what he sais now!
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The Real "Experts" consider it a Stryker as does the BATF!
Provide the BATF letter stating as much. Again, it doesn't exist. Also, please point us to these supposed (self-anointed?) "experts."
A glock striker/firing pin:
(http://www.rockyourglock.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/glock%20firing%20pin.jpg)
A VZ58 linear hammer and bolt with firing pin as a separate component:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2015/11/04/4832597_01_vz58_vz_58_vz_58_czechoslovaki_640.jpg)
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Don't know of any except the 1 u were "Trying" to build! Are U maybe talking about a stamped SKS? Yep those were made!
Just found this by RSR !
Quote!
Yes, Century had a really bad go with the Tantals, Golanis, CETMEs, etc. All of those were around 2008? The tantals were a 223 barrel, not 5.45. The bolt grinding and all of those issues were largely 2008 as well.
Not quite what he sais now!
I acknowledged issues with the CETME and Tantal -- so where is the contradiction? Century trying to build things in house in 2008 was a disaster which is why they largely outsource production to machine shops and qualified gunsmiths/builders since around 2009 or 2010 to present... Could they still improve quality control, yes. But their current products are not nearly as bad as Century haters would want others to believe.
Yes, Century screwed up the Century CETME, but the recent C308s are better.
[...]
Tantals had a chamber sizing issue on some barrels IIRC (likely a Green Mountain fault, presuming they made the barrels, and not Century's on the assembly side), but otherwise, haven't heard much bad about the Tantals that were going for sub-$500 typically and sub $400 quite often at the time...
Much of the rest of that post is as equally confused.
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vz.58: The vz.58 does not use a conventional hammer; instead it utilizes a striker-fired design. The striker [linear hammer] has a lug that interacts with a pair of sears, which are used to hold the striker [linear hammer] in the cocked position. The trigger mechanism consists of two sears mounted side by side with one located slightly forward of the other. The auto sear on the right side is connected to a sear trip actuated by the bolt carrier. Unless the bolt is fully forward and locked into battery, the trip holds up the right-hand sear and the striker is held back. The left-hand sear works in concert with a disconnector for semiautomatic operation. There are two springs, one for the striker and another for the bolt carrier.
Is there anything else U would like to know about the VZ58?
This is like an essay exam where the question relates to a chapter you choose to skip in your study session. By trying to (only partially correctly) reference what you learned from the chapter(s) that you did skim, you hope the teacher/professor will take sympathy rather than giving a failing grade.
I took the liberty of striking the portions of your post above that are completely incorrect. Red characters are portions that may or may not be correct depending on your variant -- two functioning sears are illegal and would constitute a machinegun in the eyes of the BATF (as would a sear deactivation lever), both Czechpoint and Century use just one sear. Green portions are text I inserted to correct.
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922r does not count the number of U.S. parts, but rather the number of imported parts, from a list of major parts that they deem to be countable. You are not permitted to use more than 10 of these imported parts
the vz58 has 15 parts that the ATF counts for 922r and they are as follows:
1 receiver
2 barrel
3 barrel extension/muzzle device
4 bolt
5 bolt carrier
6 trigger
7 sear
8 disconnector
9 gas piston
10 magazine body
11 magazine follower
12 magazine floorplate
13 pistol grip
14 buttstock
15 handguards
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The VZ58 does not have a barrel extension -- your post is a copy/paste is BAD INFORMATION from another post where someone didn't realize what in fact a barrel extension was under the eyes of the BATF (it goes at the end opposite of the muzzle attachment) and has been incorrectly reposted numerous times over the years. They also forgot the hammer.
The VZ58 does in fact have a hammer, a linear hammer, that you choose to ignore with the assertion that it is a striker. As mentioned, a "striker" is a part which serves as both the "firing pin" and the "hammer." The firing pin being a separate part from the VZ58's linear hammer, means by legal definition, that the VZ58s linear hammer IS NOT A STRIKER, by all practical, dictionary, and legal definitions. B/c the VZ58's hammer doesn't pivot on a pin doesn't make it any less of a hammer...
In fact, as posted earlier by HowlinMad, a website devoted to 922r compliance cites the VZ58 as both having a hammer and 16 parts, thereby requiring 10.
http://922r.com/
Shockingly, that site agrees with the consensus of the resident experts here on this forum (a sub board devoted entirely and solely to the VZ58, that you deem less credible than your echo chamber "experts") that the following is the BATF 922r applicable parts for this weapon system.
1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
I have termed the linear hammer a striker in the past, but this "beating a dead horse" of a thread is precisely why I decided to cleanup my terminology for this part earlier this year...
At this point, any objective and reasonable person should be able to establish the facts of the matter. I hope the mods shut this down as I'm unsubscribing.
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Cant admit Ur wrong again, VZ has a Striker not a hammer but some falsely consider it as U do a Linear hammer, but the ATF doesn't agree with u and neither does CSA!
So why don't U contact them, as previously I've said all CSA VZs have 5 required parts but due to shortage they put 6 or 7 in some of their guns but tell u only 5 are needed!
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Gentlemen, we are done here. Leave this one lay.
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And...this is done.
Locked.