Author Topic: Czechpoint VZ 58  (Read 16970 times)

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Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2016, 08:33:29 PM »
Yep on Gunboards I am vz58kid!

Yes its true VZ & Ak are different, also I am sure that the Experts here "DONT" know that a milled AK requires only 4 (NOT 5) 922 r parts if it doesn't have a  milled receiver needs 4 US parts if no threaded barrel, 5 with the threaded barrel if you have a muzzle device,

Stamped receiver takes 5 US parts without a removable muzzle device, 6 with!

This is basic stuff I have always known!

Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2016, 08:43:34 PM »
Brasky, the reason a VZ2008 is a prob wait to happen is that when after spending 4 yrs. or so to make the original VZ58 100% reliable in semi, D-Tecknik besides the Tab on the bolt the did a few more mods and as we all know the welded tab on the VZ 2008s still have the Gremlin!

99% of all Century (Monkey) builds are Junk! Many worse than others!

PS!
The 2nd response  on Gunbooards is  correct about the 10 parts in 2nd post which was not up when I posted here!                                                                             

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2016, 10:13:21 PM »
Brasky, the reason a VZ2008 is a prob wait to happen is that when after spending 4 yrs. or so to make the original VZ58 100% reliable in semi, D-Tecknik besides the Tab on the bolt the did a few more mods and as we all know the welded tab on the VZ 2008s still have the Gremlin!

What are the mods besides the tab on the D-Teckniks?


« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 10:18:04 PM by TJNewton »

Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2016, 10:45:56 PM »
T JNewton, I would have to lie to U since last time I watched the disc was 10 yrs. ago and I have no idea where that disc is at now.

I do remember they said they worked on the gun for around 4 yrs. and had 2 different teams on it before they solved the major issue which (now all call the Gremlin) and it solved the issue by adding the tab most of the time but after much testing they did at least 2 more mods, exactly what I don't remember or if they even stated them.

But they stated no other comp has ever been able to solve that issue and they patented it, then Century put the Tab on their VZ2008 but had to stop when they were sued, while the Century tab does reduce the Gremlin a lot it didn't fix the gun!

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2016, 12:59:43 AM »
It may be that a persistent gremlin, despite the tab, is due to an extreme difference in the mating of parts in a particular rifle.  It could be that a locking block made in 1958 combined with a striker made in 1972 combined with a second generation Century disconnector combined with a weak recoil spring... etc, etc, etc, would create a mismatch on the far end of the bell curve.  Reportedly, the VZ58 is designed with "a ton of slop" to mitigate potential problems with military refurbishing and differences of manufacture across regions and decades.  Even that would have limits.

My VZ2008's have gone through thousands of rounds without any problems, and the first 1,000 rounds of each without a tab.  The inside of the receivers are shiny with mating marks but everything still looks fine without undue wear.  Who knows, a problem might surface if I'd start exchanging parts between the rifles, but I haven't had the need and would be hesitant anyway due to possible head space issues. 

To say that 99% of VZ2008's are junk is either ignorance or hyperbole, both of which are correctable positions.  Do a search for any variation of a VZ58 clone -- D-Technik, ORF, OOW, CZ-USA, CAI -- and you will find posts both lauding and cursing each one.  Proportionally, there are far more praises for the VZ2008 than criticisms.  Unless you've personally fired a hundred VZ2008's and only one of them worked well, you don't have an informed or legitimate opinion.  Try typing in any firearm model, followed by the word "problems", and you'll find dozens and dozens of reports, whether it's Century or Ruger or Beretta or S&W or Glock or Remington... on and on.

Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2016, 01:19:43 AM »
I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..

The VZ2008 had issues from day 1 but I would agree the later 1s are better and more reliable also do u remember the OOW Fiasco with the VZ2000, these were so unreliable and OOW could never fix them but they finally quit making them.

The worst receiver U can get on a VZ2008 is the ORF junk ones which had so many issues it was sad!

It does seem all who have a VZ2008 do have the Tab installed afterwards and hope for the best.

I have a few kits and thought about doing 1 VZ58, but the prob was a receiver and even the bad ones were going for over $200.  way back when, its just not worth it!                                 

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2016, 01:24:52 AM »
I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..

Thanks for the clarification.

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2016, 01:26:14 AM »
Here is what I posted on the Largest Gunforum today!

On another forum I did run across a thread about 922 and I think much info on there is wrong? I always heard that a imported CSA VZ 58 rifle since it has a milled receiver needs only 5 US compl. parts but the VZ 2008 does need 6 for 922, which is how they do come and CSA does list that with their guns.

 Also heard a imp. SLR 95 due to a milled receiver only needs 5 us 922 parts? So what is the actual reason? Is it due to a milled receiver instead of stamped?
 On the other forum nobody seems to agree with what I always heard about Imp milled receiver guns!

 Thank You!

Below is the answer from 1 of their "Resident Experts"!

You are correct. Milled receivers don't have a separate front trunnion, so the stamped need one extra part. Applies to milled AKs, VZ's, and Galils!

The above is what I have known all along but here nobody seems to know that!

slimjim -- in the psychology world this is a classic example of what is known as "confirmation bias."  Which means the only answer you will accept as "correct" is the one that agrees with your opinion...  In the internet, once can always find another who agrees with them no matter how outlandish...  Part of the reason the internet has been so powerful at assisting crazy radicals to do crazy radical things... 

Regardless, my previously stated position remains in full effect:
Be careful with taking everything you find on the internet as gospel.  Repeating bad information doesn't make it correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2016, 01:28:34 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out though what milled vs stamped has to do with VZs as both the vz58 and vz2008 have milled receivers. That kind of defeats your argument on why the vz2008 needs one more part since it's not a stamped receiver

Worth noting that someone does make a stamped receiver that rivets to cut front halfs in the demilled parts kits.  Not sure how that affects 922r -- but the only way that could affect is to push the total parts count to 17, meaning 7 rather than 6 US parts are required.

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2016, 01:31:47 AM »
Yep on Gunboards I am vz58kid!

Yes its true VZ & Ak are different, also I am sure that the Experts here "DONT" know that a milled AK requires only 4 (NOT 5) 922 r parts if it doesn't have a  milled receiver needs 4 US parts if no threaded barrel, 5 with the threaded barrel if you have a muzzle device,

Stamped receiver takes 5 US parts without a removable muzzle device, 6 with!

This is basic stuff I have always known!

Yes, we are clearly ignorant of that fact, and it clearly has not been discussed as it relates to VZ58s/variants already in this thread...

To clarify -- the Dtechnik and earlier Czechpoint guns w/ 15" barrels may have only needed 5 when they had the barrel extension installed since it's not technically a muzzle device -- not 100% certain how BATF classifies.  Once you put on a muzzle device, then 6 are needed.

For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2016, 01:47:22 AM »
I never said that 99% of all VZ2008 are junk, I said 99% of all guns put together (build)by Century are Junk, remember the Cetme, Mas 49/56, WASR, the worst was the Tantal etc..                 

Yes, Century screwed up the Century CETME, but the recent C308s are better.
The Mas 49/56 was only rechambered by Century, not built.
The WASRs are built in Romania and merely converted to doublestack and non-sporter configuration by Century.  Except for sloppy mag fit; most WASR assembly issues are the Cugir factory's fault.
Tantals had a chamber sizing issue on some barrels IIRC (likely a Green Mountain fault, presuming they made the barrels, and not Century's on the assembly side), but otherwise, haven't heard much bad about the Tantals that were going for sub-$500 typically and sub $400 quite often at the time...

Much of the rest of that post is as equally confused.

Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2016, 02:01:00 AM »
Rechambered = Rebuild to a different cal.  Wasrs also had many issues just being opened at magwell at Century and some Rom. guns were Century build.

Tantals had wrong size cal. barrels installed!

I am glad at least that it seems that many on here do know believe what I said all along!

Imp. milled AKs needs only 4 or 5 us parts depending on barrel is threaded or not! Imp. VZ58s need only 5 parts since milled and sadly U still don't believe this!

Offline slimjim

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2016, 02:26:18 AM »
Quote!
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.


50% WRONG!  It tells U that on the CSA site those use only 5 parts! CSA has been running low on original parts for a long time and do on some types include 7 us parts and tell u only 5 are actually needed.

The VZ2008 does need 6 us parts!

Sadly CSA does rarely offer only a very few of the original gray with beaver barf (early type) guns with original Czech barrels and last  batch I saw was starting at $1350. and they had only 6 of these about 6 weeks ago!

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2016, 04:34:49 AM »
Imp. milled AKs needs only 4 or 5 us parts depending on barrel is threaded or not! Imp. VZ58s need only 5 parts since milled and sadly U still don't believe this!

VZ58s ARE NOT AKs. There is no equivalency between the two, irrespective of receiver construction, regardless of your insistence of such.  Full stop.

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ 58
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2016, 04:37:10 AM »
Quote!
For the new Czechpoint guns with 16" threaded barrels and the VZ2008s, 6 US parts are definitely needed.


50% WRONG!  It tells U that on the CSA site those use only 5 parts! CSA has been running low on original parts for a long time and do on some types include 7 us parts and tell u only 5 are actually needed.

The VZ2008 does need 6 us parts!

Sadly CSA does rarely offer only a very few of the original gray with beaver barf (early type) guns with original Czech barrels and last  batch I saw was starting at $1350. and they had only 6 of these about 6 weeks ago!

My answer was 100% correct, and yours continues to be completely wrong.

Tell me, which of the following and previously posted 16 parts are not present on the new Czechpoint guns.  You need to eliminate at least one for your insistence on 5 to be correct.

Here's a hint -- you can't.  As illustrated in the Czechpoint listing they mentioned 5, 6, and 7 US compliant parts!  The fact that they're terrible at their website listings has absolutely no affect on the letter of the law, which is a max of 10 foreign-made parts.

Slimjim, you have your facts wrong.  There are 16 total 922r parts on any VZ58 with a muzzle device, and per the law a maximum of 10 of those parts can be foreign made.  Basic arithmetic then concludes the requirement of 6 US made parts.

You can go w/ 5, but then you are in violation of the law (again, with perhaps the exception of Dtech and early Czechpoint VZ58s with permanently welded barrel extensions).  Again, here are the 16 total 922r parts present on (most) VZ58s and variants.

Sixteen parts, need 6 US parts.

1 Receiver
2 Barrel
3 Muzzle attachment
4 Bolt
5 Bolt carrier
6 Gas piston
7 Trigger
8 Hammer
9 Sear
10 Disconnector
11 Buttstock
12 Pistol grip
13 Forearm, handguard
14 Magazine body
15 Follower
16 Floorplate
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 04:38:44 AM by RSR »