Author Topic: P10C FTF - Nose Dive  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline ayecee01

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P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« on: April 16, 2023, 08:13:11 PM »
Hi All,

Long time lurker first time poster.  Today I had two P10C's have the exact same FTF issue where the round took a nose dive right into the barrel.  Of course this happened for the first time in "P10C 1" during a Steel Challenge match on the first round of the day. "P10C 2" had experienced this issue one time about 2 weeks ago but I had just gotten it back from getting milled for an optic and just chalked it up to the gun being bone dry and did not think twice about it since I had no other issues that day.  The ammo that was used was 115 gr FMJ reloads from Stand 1.  About two weeks ago and probably a month prior to that, I had put roughly 500 rounds of 2 batches through P10C 1 with nothing except for 1 light primer strike - otherwise the ammo cycled flawlessly.  I retired P10C 1 after the FTF happened twice in a row and went to P10C 2.  P10C 2 then had the same FTF right off the bad (first round fires, second FTF nose dove).  Luckily a guy in my squad was able to shoot the Stand 1 ammo without issue so we swapped what I had for some 115 aluminum case Blazer.  I did not shoot P10C 1 again the rest of the day (stupid in hindsight but I had already caused enough of a delay I did not want to cause any more potential issues).  P10C 2 then continued to fire along with 1 FTF, the same nose dive maybe 50 rounds later, but then after that functioned for the final 3 stages with no issues so maybe another 75 or so rounds.

This is the first time I have any type of stoppage with either of these guns and both have close to 4k rounds on them.  P10C 1 has pretty much been set up as described below since I have owned it, P10C however was completely stock until maybe 3 months ago.  The mags I was using were a combination of brand new and old and then a couple pinned mags (Home for me is the ban state of NJ).  The issue was a pain to clear so we did not try to re-create it too often. Ideally I would have tried to see if it was mag specific but given I know I had the FTF with at least 1 brand new mag and 1 pinned mag I don't think it was mag related. At first I thought well it has to be the ammo (and perhaps it still could be) but I have used the ammo previously and while I did have 1 issue with P10C 2 it was 1 out of maybe 100 rounds and I have zero issues with P10C 1 during that same training session.  Also the other guy in the squad ran the ammo with no issue and I did experience the issue with the aluminum blazer.  Then I thought well maybe it was magazine related, but to have it happen with at least 1 brand new mag and one mag I have had since I owned my first P10 just seemed weird. Then I thought well maybe the recoil spring, but again, I go back to P10C 1 never having this issue.  And unlikely to be barrel related since they are different barrels. 

Sorry for the extremely long post, but hoping someone here can shed some light or experience with this.  Not sure when I will have the time, but my next plan is to take 100 rounds of various brands (factory and reloads) that I have and do 50 rounds in each gun using various mag and recoil spring combinations...other than that I am at a complete loss.

P10C 1: Primary Machine Barrel, HBI Trigger, CGW Striker & Spring, Primary Machine Recoil Spring (Red) and Rod
P10C 2: Stock Barrel, HBI Trigger, CGW Striker & Spring, Primary Machine Recoil Spring (Red) and Rod

 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 08:21:08 PM by ayecee01 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2023, 07:36:10 AM »
Strange first post, but....

Welcome from Georgia !!

Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the sticky posts in the 'New Members' Forum and also the 'Important Information' sub-section.
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Offline CDKJudoka

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2023, 03:08:09 PM »
Have you changed the recoil springs to see if you can replicate the issue? If I read this right, it failed to feed on your 115gr reloads and Blazer Aluminum?

Offline ayecee01

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2023, 06:38:04 AM »
Yes the 115 gr reloads failled 4 out of 4 times, the 115 gr alum. Blazer failed 1 out of maybe 75 rounds. I did not have the EOM recoil guide rod and spring with me at the time.  My plan is to take both P10's and various ammo (plus some of the left over reloads) along with the OEM guide rod and springs to see if I can replicate the issue.   

Offline Ron IL

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2023, 08:15:16 AM »
When I first started loading 9mm I had problems with my 115 gr .356 reloads.  I went to 147 gr .357 and no more problems.  My latest one I picked up didn't shoot the 147 as well so I tried 135 gr .357 and it runs fine and shoots them well.  It is my CZ P01 omega.  So now I am loading the 135 gr for all of my 9mm pistols.  You may have better results going to 124 or bigger bullets.
Ron
KB9TF
Retired Southern IL coalminer

Offline armoredman

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2023, 02:09:53 PM »
Say goodnight, Gracie.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2023, 03:01:54 PM »
Mr Ayecee -
Back to the issue at hand.....

This sounds to me more like an ammo issue. If it is, then there is help for you here:
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=100352.0

Especially in the category: Physical Details of Cartridge Building
It is easy for the reloader to build overly-long cartridges or get the Taper Crimp set incorrectly in tight-chambered CZ's. Don't believe the cartridge gauge. The primary gauge is always your pistol's own barrel.

In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline ayecee01

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2023, 06:22:33 AM »
Mr Ayecee -
Back to the issue at hand.....

This sounds to me more like an ammo issue. If it is, then there is help for you here:
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=100352.0

Especially in the category: Physical Details of Cartridge Building
It is easy for the reloader to build overly-long cartridges or get the Taper Crimp set incorrectly in tight-chambered CZ's. Don't believe the cartridge gauge. The primary gauge is always your pistol's own barrel.

Just using the eye test, the crimp is extremely aggressive on this batch.  I have about 10 rounds left over.  Hopefully within the next week will be able to get out and test a variety of ammo to see.

Offline ayecee01

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2023, 06:23:29 AM »
When I first started loading 9mm I had problems with my 115 gr .356 reloads.  I went to 147 gr .357 and no more problems.  My latest one I picked up didn't shoot the 147 as well so I tried 135 gr .357 and it runs fine and shoots them well.  It is my CZ P01 omega.  So now I am loading the 135 gr for all of my 9mm pistols.  You may have better results going to 124 or bigger bullets.

My initial issue was normally I have shot the same stuff very well, I am thinking I just got a bad batch.  Unfortunetly the reload company was of no help and basically blamed my magazines then stopped responding to me.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2023, 06:44:21 AM »
Speaking of magazines have you ever disassembled them and wiped them out? Over time if they are neglected they can definitely cause the type of issue you describe. Weakened mag springs will do it as well.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2023, 07:30:34 AM »
Just using the eye test, the crimp is extremely aggressive on this batch.  I have about 10 rounds left over.  Hopefully within the next week will be able to get out and test a variety of ammo to see.


"Eye test" is another word for "guess". Since variations smaller than a human hair can upset the fit of ammo in the chamber, causing very dangerous situations for the shooter, we never "guess" about he physical cartridge dimensions. There are 2 things the user/shooter can do:

1. Measure. Buy a digital 6" caliper from Harbor Freight (~$22) and start measuring suspect rounds. Simply "zero" the instrument before use, and start measuring. The dimensions for each cartridge are kept by SAAMI and can be found on-line HERE. 9mm Luger is on page 24.

2. Plunk & Spin. Each Cartridge (new or reloaded) should be able to fall all the way into the gun's chamber (using only its own weight), spin freely in that position with zero resistance, and lastly fall back out of the chamber (using only its own weight). No help in any form should be required to complete these 3 steps. By "help" I mean assistance in the form of tamping, shaking, pushing, nudging, hammering, etc. 1. Fall in, 2. spin freely, 3. fall out; that's it.

If you can do these tests to 5-8 random rounds out of each 50, then you should be OK. But if you run into issues, then any rounds that give you trouble should be specifically tested.

Hope this helps
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline ayecee01

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Re: P10C FTF - Nose Dive
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2023, 06:10:35 AM »
Speaking of magazines have you ever disassembled them and wiped them out? Over time if they are neglected they can definitely cause the type of issue you describe. Weakened mag springs will do it as well.

Yea I do that to the extent I can (some of my NJ mags are pinned so they will just die out), the mags I had issue with were a combination of half used and brand new.