For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important

[armoredman]

Not a whole lot of information due to possible government interference on release of information, but it looks like ATFE and a US Attorney attempted  to prosecute a man in Ohio for having an unregistered Short Barreled Rifle with an AR15 pistol equipped with some sort of cheek rest and an an angled fore grip. I only have the one link. According to the link, the jury found not guilty, but the mere fact that this happened or reportedly happened after the determination letters sent out by ATFE...that's disconcerting.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/

[Trblshtr]

Those playing at the edge of "determinations" invite this sort of thing from a bureaucracy hell-bent on enforcing an unconstitutional system of regulation.  Please note that this happened under the watch of a so-called "friend" of the 2nd Amendment. 

[oldfrank]

John A. , I can only add you are exactly right.

The ATF will flip flop on an issue in a heart beat.

Some examples recently: Government brass sales, Green Tip Ammo and the brace Issue!

[MadDuner]

My understanding about the Ohio case - was that the guy added a butt-pad to the brace - which in the eyes of the ATF - implied the INTENT to shoulder the weapon instead of brace it against his forearm.  That's the fine line the ATF took in deciding to go after the guy.

Sending the ATF $200 would sound cheap to the guy after what he spent in attorney costs.  Just another money grab.

[armoredman]

However, we now have something we didn't have before - precedent. Thin, scarce and not the best, but case law precedent for certain, and in our favor.

[MadDuner]

The entire process is stupid.... Starting right at the beginning where they want to collect a tax for SBRs, then continuing forward with you can make a pistol as long as you want - just be careful how you hold it?

[dragon813gt]

My understanding about the Ohio case - was that the guy added a butt-pad to the brace - which in the eyes of the ATF - implied the INTENT to shoulder the weapon instead of brace it against his forearm.  That's the fine line the ATF took in deciding to go after the guy.

If this is the case then it?s understandable.  The ATF has said you can not modify the brace in anyway.  Do not do anything to it except install it as per the instructions.  I realize the ATF changes their mind all the time.  And this is the agency that determined a shoelace was a machine gun.  But after the back and forth over the braces they ruled that they were legal, and could be shouldered, as long as you didn?t modify them.  I can tell you that a KAK Shockwave Blade on a 9mm AR will beat your shoulder up really well.

[Atomic Punk]

This is a much better article on the case. An incompetent ATF decided to prosecute but a jury found him Not Guilty after less than an hour of deliberations.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/daniel-zimmerman/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/

[RSR]

Came over here to post about this.  Actually saw this on Survivalblog.

Great advice on keeping BATF approval letters from the manufacturers' of your modifications in the pistol grip of your gun:

JWR?s Comment: With this situation in mind, I recommend that anyone who has an arm-braced gun also equip it with a pistol grip mounted to the lower that incorporates a storage compartment. That way you can carry copies of the ATF letter(s) in a Ziplock bag stowed inside the grip at all times. That way, if there is ever a legal dispute with the ATF, that letter will be a de facto part of the chain of evidence. An officer separating that letter from the gun taken as evidence would be solid grounds for Title 42 Sec 1983 (Deprivation of Rights) civil lawsuits?against both the agency and against the agents, as individuals.

https://survivalblog.com/survivalists-odds-n-sods-296/

[IDescribe]

Seems to me that of you modify an arm brace with a buttpad  so that it can be used as a stock, then it's a stock.

[Steelerfan]

Pleased with the not guilty verdict; however, very concerned that the case went to court!

[dtomp]

Well, to me it seems the atf was saying - we know they're being shouldered, but when you add a butt pad it's no longer an arm brace. If they didn't draw a line in the sand, pretty soon they would start manufacturing them with a butt pad. I'm not a fan of atf, in fact I gave up my ffl because of them putting dealers in jail for bad paperwork. Now there were bad dealers out there, but there were also good dealers making small mistakes and losing their business and all their money fighting the atf. I think this was a warning to others, even though they're arm braces and we know you use them as a shoulder brace, don't be stupid about it.

[adrian]

     Hiya and thanks for the thread. So much info in the links my brain hurts a bit..lol
I thought I read in the ohio case altho acquitted it didn't rise to becoming a case law to use as president. It sounded clear that updates the ATF made to clarify that an angled fore grip was ok,was evidence that was ordered not to be avail for the jury to be aware of,thus defaulting to it appearing like a vert fore grip which they allow the jury to know is illegal. How can the avg citizen afford the tens of thousands to defend oneself against this. Who could possibly afford due process. 90% plea bargains suggest, 90% of people can't.And add triple penalties to those who want to roll the dice. Basically,if you want due process kiss your arsh goodbye. This guy was having to petition the courts to be allowed to go to his classes. Well wait till he's done and job hunting and the arrest is on his record,for good. The arrest could keep him from approval of apt,home,car loan etc. While the elites get of of club fed and can run for congress.
     And having read recent red flag legislation here in az. I'm concerned of the end game being a return to what germany instituted in our lifetime of recruiting and paying citizens to rat each other out largescale. I'm glad John A. will only use his cheekrest as a cheekrest. The person two lanes over goofing around with his cheekrest may not know a range officer got offered a nice govt part time job,and a 1min vid upload and customers name off the ledger gets the whole process in motion yet again. Cheers. Be well.

[dtomp]

Too much info...?..  I think I'll just build my own range in the barn. It sounds like it could be a lot cheaper, and safer. Now, how do I keep the neighbors happy? - lol