Author Topic: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important  (Read 1142 times)

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Offline armoredman

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For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« on: October 29, 2018, 09:43:59 AM »
Not a whole lot of information due to possible government interference on release of information, but it looks like ATFE and a US Attorney attempted  to prosecute a man in Ohio for having an unregistered Short Barreled Rifle with an AR15 pistol equipped with some sort of cheek rest and an an angled fore grip. I only have the one link. According to the link, the jury found not guilty, but the mere fact that this happened or reportedly happened after the determination letters sent out by ATFE...that's disconcerting.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/

Offline Trblshtr

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2018, 08:44:47 AM »
Those playing at the edge of "determinations" invite this sort of thing from a bureaucracy hell-bent on enforcing an unconstitutional system of regulation.  Please note that this happened under the watch of a so-called "friend" of the 2nd Amendment.  :o
Steve

Offline John A.

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2018, 09:12:21 AM »
Anyone that is even somewhat knowlegable about guns knows that the atf is one of the most convoluted agencies in the US government.

You ask 3 different agents the same thing, you should be prepared to get 3 different answers.

I have been paying attention to ATF over-reach for many many years, and I couldn't count on both hands the times where I think someone was being wrongly prosecuted.  I admit there are times when I thought they were absolutely right, but they tend to make some really bad calls too.

One fairly recent example, they can "investigate" a political candidate who created an illegal short barrel rifle, and LIVE STREAMED it for the whole world to see in a political stunt, yet nothing comes of it.

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/politics/local/article_3f9ca756-26de-11e8-85cd-8bf636d46afc.html


You'll find all sorts of media publicity back around the time it happened where she was being investigated, but I challenge you to find a single follow up story where she was arrested.

hint: you wont' find where the "case" was updated with an arrest because it was dropped and swept under the rug nudge nudge wink wink.





When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline oldfrank

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2018, 10:17:12 AM »
John A. , I can only add you are exactly right.

The ATF will flip flop on an issue in a heart beat.

Some examples recently: Government brass sales, Green Tip Ammo and the brace Issue!

Offline MadDuner

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2018, 10:23:18 AM »
My understanding about the Ohio case - was that the guy added a butt-pad to the brace - which in the eyes of the ATF - implied the INTENT to shoulder the weapon instead of brace it against his forearm.  That's the fine line the ATF took in deciding to go after the guy.

Sending the ATF $200 would sound cheap to the guy after what he spent in attorney costs.  Just another money grab.

Offline armoredman

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2018, 01:39:45 AM »
However, we now have something we didn't have before - precedent. Thin, scarce and not the best, but case law precedent for certain, and in our favor.

Offline MadDuner

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2018, 09:19:34 AM »
The entire process is stupid.... Starting right at the beginning where they want to collect a tax for SBRs, then continuing forward with you can make a pistol as long as you want - just be careful how you hold it?

Offline dragon813gt

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2018, 01:19:24 PM »
My understanding about the Ohio case - was that the guy added a butt-pad to the brace - which in the eyes of the ATF - implied the INTENT to shoulder the weapon instead of brace it against his forearm.  That's the fine line the ATF took in deciding to go after the guy.

If this is the case then it’s understandable.  The ATF has said you can not modify the brace in anyway.  Do not do anything to it except install it as per the instructions.  I realize the ATF changes their mind all the time.  And this is the agency that determined a shoelace was a machine gun.  But after the back and forth over the braces they ruled that they were legal, and could be shouldered, as long as you didn’t modify them.  I can tell you that a KAK Shockwave Blade on a 9mm AR will beat your shoulder up really well.

Offline Atomic Punk

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2018, 01:38:06 PM »
This is a much better article on the case. An incompetent ATF decided to prosecute but a jury found him Not Guilty after less than an hour of deliberations.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/daniel-zimmerman/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/

Offline RSR

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 03:55:45 PM »
Came over here to post about this.  Actually saw this on Survivalblog.

Great advice on keeping BATF approval letters from the manufacturers' of your modifications in the pistol grip of your gun:
Quote
JWR’s Comment: With this situation in mind, I recommend that anyone who has an arm-braced gun also equip it with a pistol grip mounted to the lower that incorporates a storage compartment. That way you can carry copies of the ATF letter(s) in a Ziplock bag stowed inside the grip at all times. That way, if there is ever a legal dispute with the ATF, that letter will be a de facto part of the chain of evidence. An officer separating that letter from the gun taken as evidence would be solid grounds for Title 42 Sec 1983 (Deprivation of Rights) civil lawsuits–against both the agency and against the agents, as individuals.
https://survivalblog.com/survivalists-odds-n-sods-296/

Offline IDescribe

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 04:50:17 PM »
Seems to me that of you modify an arm brace with a buttpad  so that it can be used as a stock, then it's a stock.

Offline John A.

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2018, 06:25:11 PM »
I've kept a copy of the letter in the grip of the gun since day one.

I also keep approved form 1 tax stamp copies in there with it for the suppressors that I use on it.  That way, I've always got a copy with me, even if I forget my little pouch that has copies of all of them.

I had never thought about the chain of evidence angle though.
When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline Steelerfan

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Re: For those using "pistol braces", this is VERY important
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2019, 07:04:17 PM »
Pleased with the not guilty verdict; however, very concerned that the case went to court!