Firing Pin Retaining Pins

[PappaWheelie]

Hi John,

I can attest to the improved durability of CGW "slotted spring pins" over factory "roll pins," but McMaster-Carr sells "Mil Spec" slotted spring pins that might be even better via stellar metallurgy producing 17% greater than standard (2100 vs 1800 lb) strength per MS16562. http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5426.msg22929#msg22929 The McMaster-Carr blueprint dimensions match the CGW pin for diameter.

[Practical Shooter]

Here is an update on the FPRP.
My CZ has 8000 rounds and the roll pin 7000 rounds with as many dry fire practice.

https://youtu.be/NqjdGfa8Jkg

Terrific news. Thanks for the update. And this is the FPRP you bought on Amazon I assume:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z3WG0T0

How do you clean the Firing Pin chamber and do add lube or leave dry? Thx.

Yes it is the one I bought from Amazon, but I want to make it clear, that many other pins will work as well, including (but not limited to) the CGW pin.
For the cleaning part, I go down the chamber with a Q-tip, lightly soaked in solvent, then repeat the process with a dry Q-tip.
Watch out, the cotton part can get stock inside the chamber, and a paper clip can push it out 
I usually don't lube the inside the chamber nor the firing pin as it might attract grime, and what you can witness in the video, is the firing pin right out of the slide before any cleaning being done. So it was pretty clean. The channel was just a little bit dirty, and the rest of the gun was very filthy, as my clean up schedule is set as every 1700 rounds.

[john seeley]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like both of these pins are excellent which are both 1/8" x 3/4".

Thanks for the tip on cleaning and not lubing the firing pin channel.

[john seeley]

I know this thread is old, but I just wanted to tack-on another fairly recent video I found on replacing the firing pin retaining pin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkyAr5Z_kKU

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[thedude]

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.

[john seeley]

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.

CGW site: "Why not a solid firing pin retaining pin?  We tried that and found that a solid pin will soon damage the firing pin, causing peening.  This peening or mushrooming of the firing pin causes the pin to drag in the firing pin channel = light strikes.   A solid firing pin retaining pin can also get stuck in the slide.  We have machined several from customers slides that would not drive out."

Anyway, I wanted to add this video to the preceding video in this thread so others can refer to it.

[Tok36]

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.

Edit: I was writing this while john seeley made the above post. So it looks like the information is mostly redundant.

   Two hard metal surfaces banging into each other repeatedly can cause peening on the Firing Pin. This is why the CGW Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a hollow tube with a slot so that it can act like a spring and absorb some of the shock of the firing Pin striking it.

   As to the CZC solid option, they have been selling the solid pin for longer than i have been into CZs. So i assume that it is not a significant issue. I have not had the opportunity to try one myself so i do not have any first hand information on the subject.

[john seeley]

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.

Edit: I was writing this while john seeley made the above post. So it looks like the information is mostly redundant.

   Two hard metal surfaces banging into each other repeatedly can cause peening on the Firing Pin. This is why the CGW Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a hollow tube with a slot so that it can act like a spring and absorb some of the shock of the firing Pin striking it.

   As to the CZC solid option, they have been selling the solid pin for longer than i have been into CZs. So i assume that it is not a significant issue. I have not had the opportunity to try one myself so i do not have any first hand information on the subject.

Thanks. I do like that the solid pin is tapered and has a dimple on one end (for a roll pin punch) and rounded on the other to be inserted more smoothly. But it doesn't stay in place with constant tension like a roll pin.

[NEKvermont]

Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.

[jurek]

Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.

I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.
 

[Scarlett Pistol]

Another forum member, back then (early 2000s) modified the firing pin itself, lengthening the indentation/cut on the top of the firing pin so that it wouldn't hit the stop when slammed by the hammer (but still held the firing pin in the slide)  That seemed to work, too. 

(This has been a topic of discussion on the forum here since my return (after years of absence), and I continue to question whether the firing pin modification might be a better solution.  Nobody who knows a lot about the design and the likely effectiveness or drawbacks of the firing pin modification has ever commented.)

I’ve done this on two of my CZ’s. I also lengthened the other side of the cut so the firing pin protrudes maybe 1/32” more. I also beveled the edges of the cut in the firing pin so they don’t gouge the retaining pin.

The mods worked like a charm. I can reliably run a lighter hammer spring on even the hardest primers. And there’s been no damage to retaining pins. To be fair I just end up swapping out the retaining pin anyways for a CGW one after I had tested a bit.. I mostly do the mod for increased reliability with lighter springs.

[Walt Sherrill]

I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.

Yeah, but...

Not every part of a gun's design requires sacrificial parts.    That a sacrifical part was needed makes me wonder about the viability of that way of retraining the firing pin.

The firing pin stop of the CZ-85 Combat and pre-B 75 designs is not a sacrificial part -- it doesn't fail.  And Tanfoglio has made a lot of guns (including the Tanfoglio TZ guns and the Tanfoglio-made Witness line (both near-copies of the CZ design) that use a firing pin stop.  Tanfoglio  calls it a "firing pin retainer" rather than a firing pin stop.

If CZ had just retained the firing pin stop used in the original CZ-75 design there would have been a little more production cost but there would have been a lot less complaining and hassles for buyers and, arguably, quite a bit fewer guns returned to CZ for service.   I suspect that CZ has lost more money dealing with broken firing pin retention roll pin issues than it has saved through lowered production costs.  It certainly made many of us question the thinking behind that particular design change.

As I was writing and editing this reply, the message above was posted, and Scarlett Pistol's reply offered a variation on an earlier suggestion and that seems an even-better idea than the one I first wrote about.  This post is a good bit shorter because of Scarlett's reply.

With the original Browning Short Recoil Locked Breech guns, the firing pin spring had two functions: 1) return the firing pin to position after the shot and 2) limiting  inertial firing pin movement that could cause ignition if the gun was dropped.  That design did the first part well, but didn't always do it with the second part.

For guns with firing pin safety mechanisms, 2) is not an issue, and a lighter firing pin spring along could probably be used, which would reduce the force with which the firing pin spring sends the firing pin to the rear after the primer strike. A weaker spring alone might work.

[Mercs]

Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.

I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.

My Tanfoglio Stock 1 has a firing pin retainer exactly like the Shadow pistols, in the rear of the slide. I can remove the firing pin without any tools. It also has a FPB, just like the 75b. It’s so simple, and cannot fail. There should not be a failure point in every machine. I have to disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Here2learn]

But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So is the solid pin bad for just the extended firing pin, or also for the factory pin?

[M1A4ME]

Our CZ's are "different".  Some people report firing thousands of rounds and never having an issue with the firing pin retaining pin.

I've pulled the firing pin retaining pin out of a brand new pistol that I'd never fired and seen slight damage to the surface of the firing pin retaining pin just from firing/dry firing at the factory.

Pins can be different (harder, softer).  The slot in the firing pin may be slightly off front to rear of shorter or longer.  Springs might be stronger or weaker.  On and on and on.

There are usually specs for parts with a min/max size as well as other characteristics.  Parts can be in spec. individually but when all bolted together the result may be further out from what is optimum.

I had a buddy in the Army that used to say, "Every now and then you get a car with all the nuts and bolts tightened just right."  Those would run better, take abuse better and last longer than another one that looks identical.